False accusations of domestic violence (long, sorry!)

[ebmummy]

Grr, just spent 30 minutes typing this out, only to lose it all!

Ok, so I have a dear friend who I have known for 25+ years (since we were 5!). I was his lodger throughout his 3 year marriage to his wife until his divorce in 2009. Basically he had an arranged marriage with his woman in India (he's Hindu). She was a complete bitch, really nasty to him, me and my dbf (now dh). She hit him and was physically, verbally and emotionally abusive. On one occasion, she was so unhinged I taped the incident on my phone and called the Police, but nothing was done cos he wouldn't press charges).

Long story short, she started pilphering their joint account (he was the only one who worked), and moved in with another fella. She also stole items from the house (including from me) and left. He filed for divorce, and Immigration tried to deport her (she was on a marriage visa) but she claimed domestic violence. She thus allowed to stay, despite the fact she couldn't prove it, HE could. And as I was there all the time (studying for my PhD), I could verify he was never violent towards her (he's the kindest gentlest guy I know, apart from DH!)

Anyway since then she's been going around his close tight-knit community saying he's impotent, he's not a man, that he stole her gold (he managed to hold onto some of the gold that HIS family gave to them as gifts for their wedding). He wants to meet someone new, but can't cos of the mud-slinging (he's married the guy she moved in with btw). Is there anything he can do? Obviously he's a long-time dear friend and want to see him happy as well as DH and I being fed-up of him moping around our house every weekend cos of what this spiteful woman is doing

Well, I don't know how property is divided up under British law and that's why I cited Indian law to say that she would have expected all the gold to be hers. Anyway, clearly that is not here or there.
My general feeling is that the OP means well but best not to get involved in this. If she is however harassing you, then please go to the police. And if he has changed her name legally, shouldn't be hard for the police to trace her? It is not clear to me what her new husband has to gain by joining in this harassment. I may be wrong but I think there might be more to this story. Not saying the ex-wife is innocent, just that the story doesn't quite add up.

What I mean is not that ebmummy isn't telling us the whole story but that your friend may not be telling you the whole story.

Potol, you're right that I shouldn't get involved. And believe me, neither DH nor I wanted to be, but as I lodged with them for 3 years (and DH-then my bf stayed over on many occasions), we kind of witnessed the breakdown of their marriage. I gave evidence at their trial. What's happened is not nearly as important as what is happening right now. And maybe it's not as bad as I'm making out, but he whined so much yesterday that he ruined our weekend (DH invited him over) so I just wanted to help him some way. I think I should have posted in the legal bit tbh!

I have had misinformed biased friends of my abusive ex, speak of me like OP. I never believe well meaning friends as I know they can be taken in. I never understand why someone in OP's situation get their knickers in a twist about others lives and it sounds like it is long ago if the exw is remarried.

sophie, really sorry to hear about your situation. Believe me, I would never take any accusation of dm lightly. However, in this particular case, unfortunately she was lying (and tragically people like this exist). It was proved in court. Dear friend WAS the victim of dm (as I have written previously, in one incident, she walloped him around the head with a saucepan lid, and I called the Police). I AM involved in this case because I was lodging with them. My main purpose in seeking advice from MN, is merely if there's anything my friend can do legally to help verbal attacks from this woman. That is all. I have no other intention, nor do I mean to offend anyone.

I am not offended. I laugh at the people who believe my ex. It's their life they are wasting being angry at an innocent person, when they could be using their energy on doing positive things for themselves.

If this woman is stalking/harassing/libelling you OP then you can involve the police on your own account. Otherwise, have a chat with your DH about trying to limit the amount of time you (as a couple) spend enabling your friend to whine and wallow and not move on. Even if his XW is thoroughly unpleasant and abusive, he does himself no good by wallowing: he should take all the practical, necessary steps (ie involving the police if there is stalking, consulting a solicitor if there is still an issue with division of the marital assets) and then try to disengage emotionally.

And others please note: the XW stole money and jewellery from the OP as well, and the OP witnessed her attacking the husband so the OP's lack of sympathy for her is not just a matter of always taking the man's side...

solidgoldbrass, I did want to do this, particularly wrt my missing pendant (given by my dh), and £300 or so. However, the Police said that I had to prove she took it. She had the nerve to post a picture of herself on fb wearing it (I know!!) but took it down later so I couldn't. It sounds terrible but we are purposely trying to involve df less due to this issue but I feel so guilty. He's been there for me all my life, especially during a particularly dark time and I just want to do the same for him. DH is good friends with him also, which's why we are naturally concerned.

Oh, and thanks for 'getting' my problem. I've never posted in 'Relationships', and I've got to say, it's pretty dicey. all round.

Basically, you can only help a friend so much, after that the person has to help him/herself. Listening to your friend moan and whine is not actually helping him, there is nothing more you can practically do, just try to pull back a little when you can. Maybe even say to him, kindly, that dwelling on the issue doesn't help.

You sound like a good friend, but now might be the time to step away and let him get on with it. Legally, others have outlined what can happen for harassment (who cares what her name is/address, let the police deal with that if appropriate). Emotionally, I can understand you are upset on your friend's behalf, but he needs to change this around in his mind and see he's quite lucky to have got away from her. And, if she's remarried, why can't he?

'she's stopped saying he beat her now, just that he stole from her which's ruined his reputation.'

So why won't he just give her the gold? Perhaps in return for what she took from the joint account, assuming he can prove that she took that.

If they are keeping after him for the gold or other property, why not get a solicitor and draw up some agreement where she gets some or all of what she claims is hers and she agrees that the stalking/harassing/badmouthing stops. She can be traced and brought to the table. There are agencies that could track her down in a few hours.

Normally if people divorce, the marital property gets divided up. Did they actually divorce, legally?

How did she end up talking about DV in court? Did it come up as a DV case that he brought? In the context of an immigration/deportation case? In the context of divorce proceedings? (What is the trial you are talking about here..)

(A note on arranged marriage -- no matter how 'unforced' you say it can be, you yourself thought this woman was far too keen to leave India, and according to you, she has avoided repatriation by marrying a British citizen. There are different degrees of force and someone who had something to value in her life in India probably wouldn't be as keen to just leave it all behind. An arranged marriage system leaves miserable or poor people open to exploitation.)

OP, I think your problem isn't your mates exw, the problem is the three of you getting angry and depressed and possibly dehumanising her.

Do you have anything else in common as friends, do you do anything together, have other topics of conversation, other than discussing this woman?

It sounds like your all quite bitter and stuck in the past, which is more understandable for your friend than you and your oh.

How do you know he didn't take the pendant and tell you it was her? You made out there was a court case over the pendant, or was it my reading?

Court cases if you have been through one are not about truth, they are about admissable evidence. I don't hold much faith on guilty or not guilty verdicts since I saw how these things work.

If I were you I would stop trying to solve others problems and go and find your friends equivilant (?sp) of paintballing, and have something else to do and talk about.

i don't think this adds up.

this community is supposedly believing the word of a woman who left her husband and remarried to someone outside of the community. i really find it unlikely they'd take her seriously and discount him if he had a good reputation up to this point.

the gold has been cleared up.

so - strip out all the cultural stuff and what you have is a man and woman who've split (ages ago) and she is slagging him off and a lot of he said, she said and disagreement over money/property after a break.

so not that unusual but the inclusion of a load of largely irrelevant cultural detail makes it somehow more....?

this is a divorced couple who don't like each other, have different accounts of what happened and disagree about money.

Well done swallowedAfly. You've stripped it down to the meaningful salient pertinent points.

Firstly to thank you all for your help-some of the information provided has been really valuable.
Again to clear up some points:
sophie, my dear, myself and DH far from being 'angry and depressed and possibly dehumanising her' actually don't give a toss about what happened. Just that we want to help our friend try and rebuild his life without vicious vitriol. She STOLE from me. If you read my post, I said she posted a picture of herself WEARING my pendant on fb (to rub my face in) before defriending me, and taking the picture down (I wanted to take it to the Police as evidence of theft). This all happened in the past, and though I annoyed at the time (tis a lot for a student, which I was at the time, to have gold and cash of £300+ stolen off them!), I really don't care anymore. Again if you'd have read my posts before your quite condescending contribution, I had made it clear that DH and I were getting a bit peeved of my friend constantly moaning about this issue and wanted to help him do something about it. I am not familiar with the Indian culture, and was seeking advice. Again, please don't feel the need to comment if you feel unable to help, as you are starting to get quite personal in your posts. I realise you have suffered dm, but so has my df, but it doesn't invalidate his ordeal just because he is a man.

math, yes they divorced legally. He took out a restraining order against her after he told her he wanted a divorce (she was living with this other guy at the time). He was worried of repercussions from either herself or her bf as her visa depended on them being married. I don't know what her situation is in India, or why she wanted to leave. After her notice for expulsion came through, she said that df had been violent towards her, but she couldn't prove it. All her versions were hazy-not to out myself but she said df cut her with a knife, which would leave a scar. Then she changed it to cut her with a piece of glass. Then she said he hadn't cut her at all, only made her cut her fingernails, whatever that meant! Also didn't corroborate with df being home (he works abroad for 2 weeks out of every 4). Df had to provide a list of 40 character witnesses who would speak out on his behalf. Because I lived with them (and was studying for open university at home), they asked me whether I had witnessed any incidents of df abusing his xw. Obviously I could only speak for the times I was with them, and I had only seen her being violent to him, which I stated. I also showed them the film of her bashing him round the head with a saucepan lid. Another character witness was his ex-gf who he'd been with for 7 years, but didn't marry cos he thought his parents would disapprove (she's English). She testified he didn't have a violent bone in his body. The judge dismissed the case, and reprimanded his xw for lying, and stated that he knew it was to delay her expulsion. That's the long and short of it. The court case delayed proceedings enough that the divorce came through, and she married within a few months.

Sorry for too long a post, and dripfeed, but I didn't want to go to this much detail, just wanted to see how we could help df. I realise dm is naturally an emotive topic, but a man can suffer just as much as a woman.

I am amazed that you were right there on the spot to film a spontaneous incident of dv happening right there in front of your eyes.

I am amazed at the requirement to come up with a list of 40 character witnesses able and willing to speak on someone's behalf. If this was me I don't think I even know 40 people who can pronounce my name right...

So the court case where the dv allegation came out was her deportation hearing?

To be very frank, this man sounds like a complete loser to me, one who wouldn't marry the real, live woman he loved enough to live with for 7 years because she was English and his parents wouldn't approve, but brought a woman under dubious circumstances from India to marry instead, and then lived with her along with a friend who was up close and personal enough to the couple to manage to film their personal business...

And again, an arranged marriage where one's permission to remain in Britain depends on staying married sounds like an arrangement where exploitation of women who have low SES, perhaps poor English language skills, poor knowledge of their rights, etc. are ripe for exploitation. I confess to having something of an instinctive negative reaction to a man who would be happy to consider a relationship that would take place on those terms.

yes i'm afraid close up filming of an assault that is actually going on seems... odd to me.

and the 40 people is surely utter nonsense.

he went out with a woman for 7 years and refused to marry her because his mother might mind so then went to india to 'meet' a bride and marry her (despite allegedly being in love with another woman). that's hardly a good starting point.

also find it unlikely that the mother would approve of him having a female lodger for years if he couldn't even dare marry the woman he was in lvoe with.

none of this adds up.

I feel the same SAF.

math, the character witnesses are not all called. They maybe members of the family, but should include also include neighbours (if applicable), work colleagues and friends. Why are you amazed? It's to fully ascertain, as much as possible, a person's character and whether they have violent tendencies. Obviously not all 40 people can lie.

And yes I did film her hitting him as it happened on more than one occasion, and we were trying to get him to go to the Police.

If my friend was a woman, who's husband was beating her, would you call her a 'loser'? Would you be as unsympathetic? If YOUR friend, whether male or female, suffered dm, would you not advise them to complain? To show their bruises, take pictures, film, proof?? It wasn't a sordid love-in we had-I lodged with them so shared kitchen/living room. I'm not blind, nor deaf so saw things and heard things. As did my dh, and other friends who visited.

No wonder you don't know 40 people math, who can say your name right.

ohhhh, I like you Math

Well you don't actually know my name so you have no way of knowing just how much of a difficulty I am talking about here.

What exactly was the nature/name of the legal proceeding where the 40 character witnesses were required and how come the victim of dv needed to provide 40 character witnesses in any British court?

If the boot was on the other foot how exactly would an abused woman from India be expected to come up with 40 character witnesses in the UK?

I personally would not like to be living in a home shared with a lodger who apparently had my husband's consent to film me. What else did you take footage of besides incidents of dv? Cooking? Trimming her toenails? Hanging out the wash? Having a cuppa in front of the tv?

There is nothing to stop anyone from making false dv accusations. Presumably your friend could have made an accusation about his wife right back at her. Would she then have had to come up with 40 character witnesses? What if she had found them somehow -- what would that prove, apart from the fact that she knew 40 people.

I think the point is, ebmummy, that you are very very involved in this situation, perhaps to the point where it would be better to step back and away from it. I imagine it might put a strain on a relationship where you have three good friends/lodgers together and one other 'foreign' person, I am not saying her behaviour is remotely reasonable, I'm saying it might benefit everyone if you were less involved, I can't imagine this level of intrusion into my friend's life, even if it seems for altruistic reasons (helping him, defending him in court).

Now is a good time for you to emotionally separate, I think, or at least just back out of the situation and leave him to it.

math, if you had read my post prior to starting your bunfight, you would've seen that the court case was brought when she was avoiding expulsion back to India. She accused HIM. As she had no physical proof, only her word, HE had to provide character witnesses. I have no idea about the legal name, but it would do with extradition laws I presume.

Glad to see that filming a friend suffering dv surprises you so much. Before I filmed her, I told her to back off as I was filming her, and she still went ahead and hit him anyway. Again, I ask you the question, if your FEMALE friend was being shouted at, screamed upon and hit repeatedly by her husband in their house, would you consider it an invasion of his privacy to film the incident to shock her into going to the Police and complaining??

No, I forgot. You'd think she was a loser.

mumsy, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree!! I have very recently started work, have a 13 month old toddler running me ragged, and a new puppy which is pissing everywhere adorable.

I posted on here cos I thought if we could help him with his problem, it would get him 'off our backs' as it were. Not to negate what he's experienced cos he's a lovely friend, but obviously we all want the whole thing to end.

TBH, I should've posted in the legal section.