should I pay for my mum to see my children?

[givemeaclue]

me and mother do not get on - long history - we had counselling but it made things worse. She is very good grandmother and loves my dcs - whilst me and my mother don't want to spend time together I am very supportive of their relationship with her. She lives at opposite end of UK to me. She sees the dcs regularly but the current arrangements are that I fly up (easyjet) to where she lives with them, then fly back same day leaving them there (this is on my day off from work - dcs are pre school). She has them for 2 nights then flies back with them and then flies home. I am happy for them to stay longer as it is a lot of hassle for a 2 night trip however she feels this is long enough. Her expectation is that:

-I pay for it (approx £250 per trip plus airport parking etc)
-I will do 50% of the travelling (so we both do 2 flights in a day - me to take them up and her to bring them back)
-I book the tickets (faff on easyjet as its not straight forward return journeys as one direction of travel for both of us is without kids)

She is prepared to pay one quarter of the costs over the course of a year i.e 1 trip out of 4. She feels I should pay the majority as I earn more (she is retired on a small pension). i suggested that she do the majority of the travel as she has more time on her hands being retired and 1 work 4 days a week - she hasn't responded to that.

she has just sent me a message reminding me that we had a trip planned for august - she wants me to pay for it, do the booking and 50% of the travelling (as above).
I have just done this in March. It is costing me over £800 per annum for her to see the kids.

AIBU in thinking most people who want to see their grandchildren pay for it, travel and make the arrangements themselves. Is she taking the piss? On the other hand, she doesn't have a lot of money and I don't want finances to be a factor that prohibits them from seeing her.

Due to the travel distances - driving is not an option and the train journey is sooo loooong it turns into journey from hell even on your own let alone iwht 2 pre-school dcs.

Any advice on what I say re her latest request? don't want to make a bad relationship worse but neither do I want to be a mug.

sorry so long - thanks for reading!

Givemeaclue - I really feel for you. Im in a very similar situation several years down the line, and it's not a problem that's going to vanish into thin air. It does sound as if she is very controlling, and that your position is to be in the wrong, no matter what you do.

A few things to bear in mind from someone further down this particular track:

1. it will get harder, not easier, to make mutually convenient arrangements as the dc get older because they will have their own opinions on what they want to do in holidays, plus there will be activities, camps, sleepovers etc which will all need to be taken into account. I sit down every Christmas with my lovely MIL and plan the year out like a military campaign to make sure that we can fit it all in - luckily she is easy-going and good at being clear about when she can and can't be flexible, so it's all very amicable.

There is no room in this scenario for someone who is liable to take offence when arrangements can't be fitted in to suit them or need to be changed at short notice - it will turn into a nightmare of epic proportions. I have now given up arranging for my mother to see the DC except on those occasions when we're passing anyway, or when she is prepared to make arrangements to travel to us (vanishingly rare), because I simply cannot take on the amount of princessy hassle and flouncing it causes, nor can I arrange mine and the dc's schedule around her book group meetings and lunch party schedule. The result is that my dm doesn't see much of the children. Her choice, not mine. If your mother wants to see more of the children, then she knows how to do that. The whole 'reluctant to support contact' line is her way of complaining that you're not rolling over and giving her what she wants. Tuff. You can't do it now, and you certainly won't be able to do it in a few years when you're constrained by school and nursery holiday dates and all the other commitments that go with school-age children.

1. Her attitude will infect/affect the children as they get older. I am only finding out now about things that my dm has said to my dc over the years, and my eldest is 17 (years, not months). All sorts of snidey stuff about my dh, about the state of our house, about my career, lots of little digs. My oldest two kids are now perfectly capable of understanding the dynamics of what's going on, and as a result they don't really want to see her, even though she's getting elderly and a bit frail. I make them write dutiful thank you letters etc, but it doesn't go much beyond that. I'm sure she would interpret that as my 'reluctance to support contact' or me poisoning them against her, but in fact she has brought it on herself. It is unfair to put children in a position where they're being played off between parent and grandparent, and that is what will almost certainly be happening where your dm is concerned. They will also pick up on the fact that she doesn't want a relationship with you, and draw their own conclusions from that.

1. The money issue is about control and power games. Again I have had very similar, with dm expecting to be reimbursed for the cost of petrol for picking my dc up from the station, and the cost of their food and activities. Regardless of any justifications they can come up with, this is not a neutral thing to do, it is making a very clear statement about the level of investment (literally and metaphorically) that she is prepared to make in her dc and her dgc. If she wants to make that statement, fine, but you are entitled to draw your own conclusions from it.

As far as advice goes, you need to work through for yourself what you really want from this relationship and what will be sustainable for your situation. What has worked for us is for me to drastically reduce the amount of effort I make towards facilitating the relationship my dc have with my mum. The net result has been that she now has very limited contact with them, mainly by letter and me sending the occasional photo. She's not happy about it, but by doggedly refusing to engage with the subtext of her communications, I have gradually shifted the balance of power from her to me. Nobody has an obligation to facilitate a one-sided relationship with someone who is using their dc to control and manipulate the children's parent. Agree it's def best not to respond angrily, just matter-of-factly and neutrally. She'll either realise what she's missing out on and make more effort to up her game, or else she won't. At least then you know what you're dealing with.

It sucks, though.

Polly, I have to ask, seeing as your children don't actually want to see their GM, why are you making the effort for them to do so?

She is just going to get more difficult.

I would (I know it is easier said than done), stop sending them up to her at your own expense at all. You can't trust her not to manipulate them and they are too far away. Let her come to you - stay near by as you don't want her in your house - and do things in the day with them.

From what you have described,you don't owe her your time or your money. She can't just demand the exact time you should send them up.

I'm not, now, Houdini. They don't actively dislike her, they're just not that bothered whether they see her or not. Which is fair enough really, given that she doesn't seem to be that bothered about seeing them. Or rather she'd love to see them, but only if it involved absolutely no inconvenience or expense for her, and they play the part of dutiful grandchildren to her satisfaction.

Hardly surprising they're a bit [meh] about it, is it?

You reap the relationships you sow, i reckon.

My father likes to get his grandchildren (usually the older grandsons, not too interested in the granddaughters really) on their own and regale them with stories of how stupid and defective their cousins are, telling amusing stories of the silly things they did when they were 3 to denigrate them. You can never be sure what's actually going on when grandparents see their GC.

too right polly, too right! ;) Whoever heard of someone asking for petrol money to go and see someone....

If it were merely an acquaintance you'd be forgiven for being about it, let alone your supposed family!

Wow. I've just read through your thread, and I wonder why you feel that your mother's relationship with your children is desirable, given your own (lack of) relationship with her?

Dear Mum
I will no longer be able to travel or pay for the children to visit you.
You are very welcome to see the children whenever you choose to visit. I hope that, as a committed GM that you purport to be , you will choose to do so once you feel up to it.
Yours, your long suffering daughter xx

Thank you so much all for taking the time to reply and share your experiences - you've also managed to make me laugh at a difficult situation.

Update: As suggested by wise mnetters I didn't reply for over a week. During that time I mellowed a bit. Then I re-read her email and felt very angry again. I have replied to her that given the amount of money/time/effort I have invested in her seeing them and that I've done the majority of the travelling/paying/organising I am furious that this should be considered as reluctant to support contact. She'll therefore be making her own arrangements in the future.

Have also arranged an appt with a solicitor - I can see her doing the same so thought I would steal a jump on her. Don't want to get involved in legals etc - stressful and expensive. But one appt to find out the facts I think is worth doing (plus I'll be saving on flights now!). DH is concerned that she could argue to a judge that by me not paying/travelling thats tantamount to her not being able to see the girls so could get a court order to that effect - but as she manages to get herself to spain for months every year don't know that would wash. anyway I don't want to get to that point.

The crazy thing is that what she really wants is to see the dcs regularly with me making all the effort/paying - and thats exactly what I was doing!! she's cut off her nose to spite her face - she just can't help herself.

bracing myself for the onslaught - I know it would have been easier just to book the flipping flights - but that would only delay the inevitable showdown further down the line.

thanks all for your help

...hmm, I have a dragons den idea bout setting up a retirement home for crazed grandparents...there are some real contenders on this thread

OP - well done! Please take the credit for taking the hard decision after years of being under attack. imvho you should give yourself a medal.

(home for deranged grandparents - hmm - as long as I never have to set foot within fifty miles - I'm in!)

That sounds like a sensible, measured response.

Yes, Op, well done. Good luck with how things progress. Hope it all works out well.

well done! I'm pretty sure as just a grandparent, and one that hasn't has had a regular care role (as in, it's not like she's been your childcare while you've worked full time), I can't see her getting anywhere with a court order. She doesn't have a right to see them completely on her terms with you paying for their travel.

Good choice, well done for protecting you and you DC from what could be a really bad situation.

I am another one who can't see how she'd have a leg to stand on in court. If she wants to see the DC more why doesn't she move closer to you?

Well done for being firm. What a horrible situation and what a difficult woman.

spoke to lawyer this morning she was great and it didn't cost anything

'D'M has already replied and I've just repeated my stance. no doubt it won't end here but for today I feel I have drawn a line in the sand. hope she is now stewing on the fact that actually she was on to a good thing and she has scuppered things for herself

Great news, well done.

She has no automatic rights of access. Given your history with her, if that were to come out in COURT... (Imagine that MummyClue? ) ... No judge would support her against your will.

You have done the right thing.

Great news. Stay strong!!

Really pleased you've managed to stand up to her - it must have been so hard. Well done for doing it now - it would have been much harder to stop further down the line not only because you'd set a precedent but also because the relationship between her and the children would be more established and more difficult to tone down as they get older.

As other posters have said, you're well within your rights to set down boundaries and if she wishes to see them, the only expectation she can (legally) have of you is that you "make them available" if and when it's convenient for you - which doesn't include financial or time commitments on your part.

I have to say though I'm amazed that you even want to do that - she doesn't realise how lucky she is. Despite your obvious difficulties, you've gone above and beyond your own personal feelings to assist her - stupid stupid woman really has cut her nose off to spite her face. I really hope this makes her think although sadly, going on what you've said already, it seems very unlikely.