should I pay for my mum to see my children?

[givemeaclue]

me and mother do not get on - long history - we had counselling but it made things worse. She is very good grandmother and loves my dcs - whilst me and my mother don't want to spend time together I am very supportive of their relationship with her. She lives at opposite end of UK to me. She sees the dcs regularly but the current arrangements are that I fly up (easyjet) to where she lives with them, then fly back same day leaving them there (this is on my day off from work - dcs are pre school). She has them for 2 nights then flies back with them and then flies home. I am happy for them to stay longer as it is a lot of hassle for a 2 night trip however she feels this is long enough. Her expectation is that:

-I pay for it (approx £250 per trip plus airport parking etc)
-I will do 50% of the travelling (so we both do 2 flights in a day - me to take them up and her to bring them back)
-I book the tickets (faff on easyjet as its not straight forward return journeys as one direction of travel for both of us is without kids)

She is prepared to pay one quarter of the costs over the course of a year i.e 1 trip out of 4. She feels I should pay the majority as I earn more (she is retired on a small pension). i suggested that she do the majority of the travel as she has more time on her hands being retired and 1 work 4 days a week - she hasn't responded to that.

she has just sent me a message reminding me that we had a trip planned for august - she wants me to pay for it, do the booking and 50% of the travelling (as above).
I have just done this in March. It is costing me over £800 per annum for her to see the kids.

AIBU in thinking most people who want to see their grandchildren pay for it, travel and make the arrangements themselves. Is she taking the piss? On the other hand, she doesn't have a lot of money and I don't want finances to be a factor that prohibits them from seeing her.

Due to the travel distances - driving is not an option and the train journey is sooo loooong it turns into journey from hell even on your own let alone iwht 2 pre-school dcs.

Any advice on what I say re her latest request? don't want to make a bad relationship worse but neither do I want to be a mug.

sorry so long - thanks for reading!

Surely the kids will become more and more aware as they grow that granny is not very nice to their mummy? They may not want anything to do with her either.

givemeaclue Please reread your thread and see what you are saying.

You are being horribly bullied by your Mother. She still has a hold on you despite you not wanting to have a relationship with her. You do not need to put up with years of this crap.

Your children do NOT NEED a relationship with her. Yes, they may currently enjoy seeing her but it would not be a terrible thing if they didn't see her anymore. You've said yourself that you don't like the way she deals with their elder cousins. You know in your heart that she will be the same way with your DC.

She is making you feel guilty. You do not have to feel guilty and do it her way. If she really wants to see them she will make the effort. Stop feeling so bad and stand up for yourself.

I also agree with other comments that unsupervised access is a bad idea.

I am sorry, I just cant get past how you are conditioning your children to have a relationship with a woman that you dont want in your life yourself.

She sounds spiteful and manipulative. You are letting her manipulate you with your own children. As a result she has been allowed to remain a main factor in your life, despite you not wanting a relationship with her, and she gets to call the shots while you roll over like a puppy. (Sorry)

She wont help you out. She gets you to pay for the children to see her, and you spend insane amounts of time taking your kids on flights, to facilitate this, on your days off.

It is insane.

Clearly your reply to her email about her spine should be:

"Dear Olga, sorry to hear about your spine complaint. I wont book any tickets now then, we should await and see how well you recover, and might continue the visitations in the future, if your funds and your health allows it. Best regards, Givemeaclue"

Also, you dont know that she is a great grandmother, you dont see her with them. So frankly, you have no clue.

You know how keen children are to please their parents. They might not exactly be truthful about what a good time they have.....

I agree with all the other posters who suggest that she is continuing to control and manipulate you, using your children as a weapon.

The spinal condition, if serious enough to prevent her travelling, is serious enough to prevent her from looking after young children. It does make it easier for you to respond though- you could say how sorry you are that she's unwell, and of course you won't book any travel plans while she's not able to look after the children, so leave things for now while you see how long it takes her to recuperate.

OK I have done it.
I have emailed her that I am really worried re her spinal condition impacting on her ability to look after the children and don't feel comfortable arranging a visit and booking tickets at this point. Have also said that I am a little confused as she still seems able to travel one way, go to spain, have visitors etc yet at same time cant stand or walk very well. Therefore given my lack of clarity re her medical situation and concerns re children coming to stay in those circs, I am not comfortable making arrangements at moment.

Flak jacket is on.

Well done. Sounds like you are prepared for the inevitable melt-down.

That's a good reply. You are not saying no, or never, just 'not now' - which she can't argue with (no matter how much she might try). And also, I second what Quint says.

Well done. Small steps, standing up to her and not being a pushover.

I think she will now escalate her nastiness towards you. That's what makes me thing it's not all about the children and her desire to see them, but her desire to stay in a nasty conflict with you and make you feel bad (who knows why? some parents are just not nice?)

Just remain very calm. I would also try to work out how many times a year you think it's fine for them to go and see her and then set this as your boundary for all further discussions. This may be twice, it may be never.

I do agree that some grandparents can be brilliant with their grandchildren in a way they weren't with their own children. Circumstances change, and people change over the years, it's also a usually less loaded relationship, I know plenty of people who got on very well with grandparents that their parents struggled with. BUT that can't come at a high cost to you, and the grandparent relationsip doesn't trump everything else, like your money, time and energy. Remember, you are not stopping her paying for a flight and a hotel next to your house. Or one or two trips a year. But this demanding of a slot in every available holiday, with you footing the bill and exhausting yourself travelling is just ridiculous.

Good luck.

Hands over a bulletproof vest.

Well done, you're taking back control - it is the best way forward.

Bloody well done OP :)

well done.
I think you have done the right thing, definately.

Well done :) stand firm !

Well done- that was a very good reply.

Good grandparents don't behave like this. Nice people don't behave like this.

If she wants to see more of the children can't she move nearer? She can pay to go abroad but not for these visits? She can't be pleasant to you for the sake of the children? She isn't trying at all is she?

She made sacrifices for you and your sister, and you will do your best for your children. That is how it works in the UK. You have tried your best and, by the sounds of it, received no thanks for your effors/time/money.

I am amazed you are persevering in keeping this relationship between your DM and DCs going. In your shoes I would be worried that she would poison them against me or would do something dangerous with them to spite me.

I've jumped to the end of the thread here so have probably missed some very important points. I just wanted to say that my Dad was not a great Dad but he's a lovely Granddad. Due to geography, my DCs only see him 2-3 times a year and only for one day each time. Despite this limited contact time they have a great relationship with him, which I'm pleased about. I just wanted to illustrate that your DCs do not need to see their grandmother often to have a good relationship with her (if that's what you want) - twice a year is sufficient.

Good luck with this

"got lots more years of this aggro till the kids grow up"

Only if you choose to.

You can just say 'no more'.

I'm not sure what it's going to take for you to see how damaging this relationship is going to be to your children.

She has unsupervised contact with them! You have seen how she is with your nieces - do you want that for your children??

Just because she didn't physically abuse you and she raised you & your sister alone - you do not 'owe' her your children :(

ok she sent me back an email with a 2 page attachment regarding her 'condition' for clarification its blah de blah about how she can do some things and not others. Then she says:

^It sometimes seems to me that you are reluctant to support my contact with them & quick to respond negatively to any and everything
In addition to my back & need to avoid standing I think it is fair for us to share the travel. I may be retired but I do have a very busy life & commitments here which you don?t know about as we have got so out of touch.
I am a committed, caring, responsible, kind grandma & expect to be treated as such no matter what issues you may have about me.
I want the visit in august to be confirmed & organised as soon as possible.^

Am very cross about this having done lots of travelling/paying/inconvenience to myself this is described as 'reluctant to support contact'.

Any suggestions on how to respond - i want to send an angry email but prefer to vent here and deal with situation in manner which will be constructive for me rather than an argument?

Don't reply for at least a week. It's not compulsory, there is no law to force it - you don't have to reply. It gives you time to think about what you really want and to write and discard all the things that you really, really, really want to say and get it out of your system. Anything you say in excuse or in your defence will be treated as a target to attack.

Then just a quick email stating that you can't commit to August as you will not have either the funds or the time. Don't offer alternatives, don't offer suggestions and don't make her problem your problem. Certainly don't offer reasons or objections. Because whatever you do, you will be in the wrong. And it isn't about you being reasonable, it's about her being in control.

Easy for me to say, but perhaps if you consider that perhaps just because she says, 'I want,' and 'you must...' doesn't mean that you have to do what she wants or do what she says - or even take any notice of her at all, then you may find it a bit liberating.

btw afaics, she has no current legal right to contact. And to an outsider in my shoes, she doesn't have much of a moral right either. Just my view.

Can't you say you have no money and need your a/l for this or that reason? She sounds really really pushy. Delay everything, including repling to her email. Be busy all the time.

Shes a bully and is using access to your dc as yet another way to bully you.

Lots of other people simply wouldnt be able to afford to pay for her flights so perhaps you need to think where her flight money could be better spent?

Send her a webcam so she can see the dc online.

No-one is stopping her contact, are they? She is entirely free to pay for her travel, and come down and stay in a hotel, and take the children out every single day for a week if you are happy with that.

Even if there was a 'right', it would be for her to travel and pay for her own contact! Demanding you do it, when it is a FAVOUR, and not a legal right just shows her up as very bullying.

She is issuing yet more orders and I think the advice to leave it for a week, unless it makes you too upset in the meantime.

I also think you should remain calm and assertive, it really is up to you as their mother what happens next.

If you would like the children to see her in August (and don't cut of your nose to spite your face if you would), then I would make an offer for August: I am happy to pay for X but not Y and you will have to travel with them. Then leave it, you've offered, it's up to her.

The way she speaks to you is outrageous and not usually how people arrange contact with their grandchildren, ultimately it's all about goodwill, not demands!

Does anyone know what legal rights (if any) the grandmother would have? It may be easier to know how to progress if you had that information, OP.

Absolutely zero rights.