should I pay for my mum to see my children?

[givemeaclue]

me and mother do not get on - long history - we had counselling but it made things worse. She is very good grandmother and loves my dcs - whilst me and my mother don't want to spend time together I am very supportive of their relationship with her. She lives at opposite end of UK to me. She sees the dcs regularly but the current arrangements are that I fly up (easyjet) to where she lives with them, then fly back same day leaving them there (this is on my day off from work - dcs are pre school). She has them for 2 nights then flies back with them and then flies home. I am happy for them to stay longer as it is a lot of hassle for a 2 night trip however she feels this is long enough. Her expectation is that:

-I pay for it (approx £250 per trip plus airport parking etc)
-I will do 50% of the travelling (so we both do 2 flights in a day - me to take them up and her to bring them back)
-I book the tickets (faff on easyjet as its not straight forward return journeys as one direction of travel for both of us is without kids)

She is prepared to pay one quarter of the costs over the course of a year i.e 1 trip out of 4. She feels I should pay the majority as I earn more (she is retired on a small pension). i suggested that she do the majority of the travel as she has more time on her hands being retired and 1 work 4 days a week - she hasn't responded to that.

she has just sent me a message reminding me that we had a trip planned for august - she wants me to pay for it, do the booking and 50% of the travelling (as above).
I have just done this in March. It is costing me over £800 per annum for her to see the kids.

AIBU in thinking most people who want to see their grandchildren pay for it, travel and make the arrangements themselves. Is she taking the piss? On the other hand, she doesn't have a lot of money and I don't want finances to be a factor that prohibits them from seeing her.

Due to the travel distances - driving is not an option and the train journey is sooo loooong it turns into journey from hell even on your own let alone iwht 2 pre-school dcs.

Any advice on what I say re her latest request? don't want to make a bad relationship worse but neither do I want to be a mug.

sorry so long - thanks for reading!

Oh and should add my M is a much better GM than she ever was mother because she doesn't blame my dc for everything the way she blames me for everything so it is possible.

Snake... IME... give your M time. Leopards don't change their spots. she WILL start to critisise and apportion blame the minute they start to have their own opinions.

You know you're probably right it's all so hard. I don't know what the answer is, I understand from the OPs POv that if she doesn't do it she is responsible for reducing her dcs relationship with their GM who they undoubtedly love and if it's anything like my Mum, hero worship and yet on the other hand it's all about control

OP I think you're doing her a big favour by giving her such open access to your dc I don't think you need to go to such expense to do this.

Just observations based on watching others
Beware
A manipulative granny can try to turn children against their mother
Unsupervised access needs careful thought

For the sake of 2 days! I'd tell her to stay at mine. Much cheaper for all. I'm sure you won't kill each other overnight.

For the amount of money you are spending, I'd buy her a computer if she doesn't have one, a webcam and even pay for Internet access and he could talk every week. :)

When the children are older and can travel by themselves, then they could go and visit, but for at least a week.
2 days, seriously?

Wow. Even if you got on well with eachother I think that is way too many visits and too much forward planning. And just wait till the dcs have parties to go to, other interests etc - will she expect you to force them onto a plane?
I visit my dm maybe once a year (different country) and stay with her. She comes here maybe 3 times a year, and stays in a travelodge as flat is tiny - at her own expense. Don't see why you should be out thousands of pounds because your mother can't get on with you.

Ups, just read your last post.

Tell her to stop en route. I'm sure she CAN stay at yours or a cheap b&b and have a day out with the children.

Do not let her manipulate you.

Snake - the Op's kids are pre-schoolers, frankly, I'd be stopping this now before they get any older and form stronger bonds with the DGM, with your kids it's a bit harder as they are older :( I'd still cut ties though, Leopards Do Not Change Their Spots - they just show them when the kids get older.

OP - before you reply to her email please re-post this problem on the Legal Board. I'm no expert in this area but I think you're setting a dangerous precedent for contact and it may be that if this has been a long-standing arrangement, she could succeed in applying to Court for a contact order along the lines of what has been happening including any financial obligation.

There are many many experienced legal Mners who can help you formulate a reply which may avoid this scenario. Even better, get some legal advice from an experienced practitioner. Put aside the emotional aspect of wanting to keep the kids' relationship with Granny on an even footing and think about the possibility of being legally obliged to carry on like this for years to come.

OP, you really do sound like you are doing your best, but from the outside this seems bizarre.

Your DCs must have gathered that you don't like her - why would you then send them to her? Are you using her as childcare while you work? If so then, yes, you probably should pay for travel. If not then, as everyone else has said, just pay for the trips that you want. Although, I do think that if you want an 'adult' relationship with your children it might be good for them to see you coping with having your mother in the same house.

It's quite a lot of traveling in two days for young children if they don't need to do it. Plus, don't you want to keep a bit of an eye on her if she's that awful?

I have escaped an abusive relationship. Contact with my Ex is harmful to me and to my son.

Does my son love his dad. YEP.

Does he have NIGHTMARES if his dad mentions coming back to the UK? YEP. he does

We are conditioned to love our parents, our partners even in the face of extreme behaviour. We are manipulated by these people, even when we know they are doing something wrong, we still think we have to keep families together for the sake of the kids.

NO.

For the sake of the KIDS we need to make sure they are surrounded by HEALTHY stable people. People without agendas, axes to grind or points to score.

Sometimes we need to make decisions that are hard on our DC, due to conditioning, but that is one of the responsibilities of parenthood. protecting the most important people in our lives.

Am with Kewcumber.

If you can afford it and kids are benefitting, would keep the moral high ground. Life's too short, you may not have this problem for much longer, depending on how old your mum is, plus getting her to do all the travelling might not be practical depending on how old she is. Going to Spain as a pensioner without kids not same as travelling with two young kids, I wouldn't expect my mum to do that with preschool kids, only with older ones who are less needy.

If money and time is an issue then maybe limit it to a couple of trips a year.

Despite your personal issues, you both seemed to have worked something out which works for your kids and maybe when your kids are with your mum, you get some down time to do your thing too. Given you work 4 day week, it's only a handful of your days off that you're giving up to travel, shame to spoil the arrangement.

If you are going to make any changes, would couch it in terms that don't add to strain in your relationship.

I agree with Houdini OP. If your mum is a manipulator, you need to be extremely careful imo with regard to contact the children have with her when they get older. In your situation, I would be very uneasy about them being in her care without me present.

I think you're facilitating her too much here and she is issuing instructions. They're YOUR children and it's YOUR life. The issue of payment aside, I would cut down visits anyway.

I do speak with some experience as I have a fuckwit father. Would still facilitate him seeing DS if he actually wanted to.

Another thing to consider is that your DC do not see their GM regularly anyway, so they are unlikely to miss her / be aware of any reduction in frequency of visiting, particularly given their age.

Please do not be guilted into providing them to her - blood really should not be thicker than water, ever.

Also, even though your DC's are pre-school age, it seems their presence is demanded during peak holiday times (Easter / August / Oct half-term)? Maybe part of your response should state that money is tighter for you this year than previously, and, given she is retired (i.e. free to travel whenever) you are happy / able to cover the cost of one visit during non-peak travel times, but are unfortunately not in a position to do more.
If she asks why money is tighter, simply say you are not able to discuss the issue.

exactly how is she manipulative to you, to the extent that you have zero contact with her.
Pre-schoolers are easy to get on with on the whole. Having began to see and hear what my mother has been saying to my kids I would say beware.
She is telling you what to do. you are the mother here, these are YOUR children. she has no right to be telling you what fits in with her in that manner. You should be seeing what fits in with you - you are the one working, not her. You are the parent.
I also agree about setting a precedent.

and once they go to school, are you happy to give up such a big proportion of your free holiday time with them for her benefit?

Be careful.

She will treat them the way she treated you.

If she is a manipulator, she will manipulate them to hurt you.

If she was a bad mother, she will have no qualms about hurting your children to continue to be a bad/controlling/hurtful mother to you.

Unsupervised access, of your young, vulnerable children with a person who has proven herself to be an unsuitable carer, emotionally and physically? Just because she is their grandmother?

No way. No way.

thanks everyone so much for your replies - I need to have a good think about it taking into account all comments -I haven't replied to her email yet.
We don't get on because I find her so unreasonable/difficult. In the counselling sessions she was histrionic/angry/shouty which made everything worse and exposed her ridiculous behaviour. There are no issues of abuse or anything like that she is just very very difficult - she had a terribly abusive childhood herself I would add and was determined to be a good parent herself. I've no doubt she did her best and she made many financial sacrifices as a hard up single mum for me and my sister. Maybe I feel I 'owe' her because of that. The dcs do love going to stay with her and they have a great time. But I do take on board the comments that the manipulative behaviour (she is a great one for divide and conquer approach) may start when they get older and all the access is unsupervised. I have also heard her make comments to my older nieces that I have found unacceptable (have challenged her on it but she does not ever listen).

So as not to drip feed, i would also add that my mum is gay and from her perspective she says I am homophobic and thats why she won't stay with me/we don't get on. This is not the case but she uses this as her main 'weapon'. This is because in the counselling I explained that I had some issues around this in the way it was dealt with when we were teenagers. its very easy for her to label me as a homophobe and therefore she doesn't need to listen to me! It wouldn't make a difference if she was gay/straight whatever - she'd still be very hard work.

Example: I had booked tickets to visit her and we couldn't travel due to volcanic ash cloud. we were offered replacement tickets for another day within 3 months of the original booked dates. she said that she was unavailable and we needed to buy new tickets for an alternative date in the future- we offered to go even for a day etc - she wouldn't have it. so £250 of tickets went in the bin. it was at that point I said that we had to try counselling as I just could not find a way to work things out with someone so unreasonable.

Just to add, she doesn't do any childcare whilst I work. I did once ask her to come down and look after the dcs (when they were babies) I had hurt my back and couldn't move - couldn't even pick up babies. I asked her to help for 3 days - she said she was busy with the allotment and to hire an emergency nanny to help me (which we were then forced to do).

I think posting on legal is a good idea - thanks.

sorry so long!

First, I think you have done very well to take the mature approach of facilitating the relationship between her and your DCs despite your own lack of a relationship with your mum.

Money is a thorny topic in families as well as in other relationships and I am sure that the money is not the real issue here. It seems to be more about power, control, and perhaps on your mum's side, a desire to feel that her efforts are appreciated (and in the absence of any relationship with you, perhaps money is the only wany for her to feel that.

I agree with the other posters, that you should pay for what you're prepared to pay for and let your mum do what she's prepared to and leave it there. Any more than that is simply one of you trying to impose your will over the other and if you already don't get on then that is never going to work.

Also, think about this longer term. Once your DCs are in school and have their own friends, lives, etc around your area, they will not want to be sent off up to Granny's like this. They may come to resent it. It would be better for them and for her if she were prepared to spend time with them on their turf as some others have suggested.

I feel for you as it sounds as though there is much more at play here than just money. I have something similar with my own mum and it has completely ruined my relationship with her. I strongly believe that family should do these things because they want to, and not because it's made worth their while financially.

There are 2 sides to every story but it sounds like you have been more than reasonable and accomodating to someone who hasnt shown the same to you mother or not

Unless you have plenty of money where paying for all this isnt even a consideration then I would stop this arrangement now . The onus is not on you to figure out how she can spend time with her GC especially given that you dont have a relationship. I think you are very considerate, I'm afraid I would consider my DCs non relationship with their GM a shame but a casualty of the whole situation.

This all rings with me because I have a difficult mother, and at times have cut off contact because I felt she was too hostile to me, and it was damaging to me; I felt much happier not seeing her! Other times she saw my child happily, and I got the odd bit of support, though very unreliable.

Your original post and possible email exchange sounds very much like a power struggle going on, and one where you seem on the defensive end and she seems to be calling most of the shots (loved Houdini Hissy's tiny violin barb). Yet she doesn't seem to give you much e.g. emotional support, childcare or money, in return. You may want to keep contact (or not) but you have some say in the terms; it is a mutual decision.

I think whatever you do, you should listen to your own voice. I think you are wise to hold off responding till you feel clearer.

thanks all

yes I do feel much happier not having a relationship with her myself - its a whole load of aggravation gone. There of course are two sides to every story and she obviously feels as negatively towards me as I do to her - I do recognise that. at the moment though as some poster have said, she is dictting when she sees them, for how long and I'm running around paying for it and spending all day travellign the length of the country on my one day off a week. the current arrangements don't suit me and need to change. I just need to decide what to.

I would also urge caution about leaving your children unsupervised with her. You have described a manipulative, entitled, angry person. It is highly unlikey that she switches off all the negatives in her personality when she is with your children. It is very likely that she has already been trying to manipulate them against you, just as she does with you and her nieces and probably lots of other people as well.

Our children are 17 and 20 now. They clearly remember many occasions when they were younger when my mother made underhand remarks to them about me, their Dad or even played them off to each other. They remember those comments becuase they felt confused or hurt about them at the time. My mother simply can't help this type of behaviour (and doesn't want to), I doubt yours can either.

If you do want to continue the contact (which I probably would as long as the DC continue to enjoy it), I think the suggestion above about your mum flying down to yours each time and staying in a Travelodge / B&B for 2 or 3 nights is a good one. She can still see the kids during the day, and it would save you time, effort and money.