should I pay for my mum to see my children?

[givemeaclue]

me and mother do not get on - long history - we had counselling but it made things worse. She is very good grandmother and loves my dcs - whilst me and my mother don't want to spend time together I am very supportive of their relationship with her. She lives at opposite end of UK to me. She sees the dcs regularly but the current arrangements are that I fly up (easyjet) to where she lives with them, then fly back same day leaving them there (this is on my day off from work - dcs are pre school). She has them for 2 nights then flies back with them and then flies home. I am happy for them to stay longer as it is a lot of hassle for a 2 night trip however she feels this is long enough. Her expectation is that:

-I pay for it (approx £250 per trip plus airport parking etc)
-I will do 50% of the travelling (so we both do 2 flights in a day - me to take them up and her to bring them back)
-I book the tickets (faff on easyjet as its not straight forward return journeys as one direction of travel for both of us is without kids)

She is prepared to pay one quarter of the costs over the course of a year i.e 1 trip out of 4. She feels I should pay the majority as I earn more (she is retired on a small pension). i suggested that she do the majority of the travel as she has more time on her hands being retired and 1 work 4 days a week - she hasn't responded to that.

she has just sent me a message reminding me that we had a trip planned for august - she wants me to pay for it, do the booking and 50% of the travelling (as above).
I have just done this in March. It is costing me over £800 per annum for her to see the kids.

AIBU in thinking most people who want to see their grandchildren pay for it, travel and make the arrangements themselves. Is she taking the piss? On the other hand, she doesn't have a lot of money and I don't want finances to be a factor that prohibits them from seeing her.

Due to the travel distances - driving is not an option and the train journey is sooo loooong it turns into journey from hell even on your own let alone iwht 2 pre-school dcs.

Any advice on what I say re her latest request? don't want to make a bad relationship worse but neither do I want to be a mug.

sorry so long - thanks for reading!

So yes you have heard her already unleashing her way of thinking, her nastiness, on the children in the family.

Just think hard here. I can guarantee - and I think deep down you know - that your mother will be unable to stop herself bad-mouthing you to your children, even in just the form of snide asides.

That does a massive, massive amount of damage. I know because I had a grandmother like that. Divide and conquer just about sums it up.

It is very hard to actually describe the kind of damage that treatment does, because it certainly isn't clear-cut. I DIDN'T grow to hate my gran. I DIDN'T get turned against my mother, because it was clear from even an early age what kind of a person my gran was like.

The best way I can describe it was that I grew up feeling sad and disappointed that I had the type of family I did. I hated the feeling of unpleasantness, of lack of love, of bitchiness that hung around like a cloud. Spending time with other normal families and seeing normal, friendly happy affection between generations and siblings made me feel awkward and confused and very jealous. I basically grew up despising not individual members OF my family, but just 'my type of family'. I only see certain members now because I just can't BEAR for my own family to be brought into that, to continue the 'pattern' of bitchy, spiky ways of communicating and for my own child to see that and learn from it. I want a fresh start for my own life with my own children. I don't miss them at all because I don't ever see that group of people as having been a proper family.

Now that's my experience from having been brought up with a bitchy nasty gran who everyone made allowances for, and a stressed mother who was always trying to please her, in a family who to the outside looked perfectly functional!

Your relationship with your mother sounds several steps beyond that.

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that your children can remain unaffected. They CANNOT. They will LEARN from the dynamic between you and your mum even if they don't see you with her. They will LEARN that family means bitchy, nasty, 'supportive' but actually pleased to see the other fail, crowing, snide, mean.

It's taken me YEARS not to see that as the default for 'family life' and it's so hard to break the pattern and not slip into being the same kind of person to one's nearest and 'dearest' - because that's what you learned when you were tiny.

Please think really really hard about this and DO NOT make your mother's 'grandmotherhood' the most important thing. Far far far more important than having a relationship with a grandmother is your responsibility to give your children good, positive, loving role models for them to form their views on relationships and how they work,so they themselves can have good relationships in the future.

I second all those posters saying take care about how much you let your mother have a relationship with your children.

We spent a lot of time with my grandmother as children even after she decided to pick on my younger sibling as her least liked grandchild. To this day none of the grandchildren understand why she was allowed to get away with her games (boys better than girls, her white grandchildren and their cousins better than her bi-racial grandchildren).

I am especially puzzled why my parents didn't read the riot act about the way she picked on my sister. I did, aged only 13, when I came home to find she had reduced my sister to tears again, so why couldn't they? Not that we go on about it, but it hasn't been forgotten or forgiven. Please don't lapse into denial like my mother did, because it won't do your relationship with your children a lot of good in the long run.

..I have emailed her today re travel arrangements - she has responded that she has a (newly diagnosed) spinal condition and cant do all the travelling. not sure how to respond to that - i can't win!

I would respond saying that it sounds as if cutting down the visits would be the way forward if health and money issues are both against the plan. Perhaps a visit could be arranged when she is a bit better. After all, if she isn't up to travelling then she isn't up to looking after young children. :)

She is manipulating you. She wants to make you travel. Make you jump through hoops so she can see you putting yourself out to appease her. Very satisfying for this kind of person.

With "oh what a pity, get in touch when you feel up to it" and jump with relief? If she's so ill, how can she cope with two active pre-schoolers? You wouldn't know, you're not allowed to be there

You are caught up in something aren't you? Counselling might help. Just talking about it and coming up with your own solution. p.s. Its a shame she "can't travel". Does that mean she won't be going to Spain anymore?

You're right OP, you can't win. On the positive side though, she has handed you on a plate a wonderful excuse to play her back at her own game. As others have said, if she's too ill to travel, you couldn't possibly expect her to be able to look after 2 children!

absolutely! She is quite right, and should not compromise her health, so looking after children is just not a good idea. Suggest that when she is well enough to travel, she could speak to you about seeing the children en route to SPain. They could have a day out together, so that its not too hard on her back.

Clearly as the children get older they will be far to active for someone with her complex health issues.

If she can't travel, how does she intend to look after 2 small children? That's an argument for cutting down the trips (i.e. the money) if ever I heard one.

I'm with squeaky (as always!) - if she wants to see them, she needs to make the effort.

Oh how sad that she won't be able to go to Spain.

if you are worried about your DC not having a relationship with a grandparent i can add to what others have said that both sets of mine lived very far away, the UK ones I saw once a year, maybe twice for usually a weekend at a time, the ones who lived abroad i saw alternate years- albeit i saw them for a longer period- summer holidays were spent with them. I consider that i had reasonable a relationship with them, when i saw them they were kind and attentive and showed their love. It wasn't especially close as it couldn't be due to the distance but it was loving and i was upset when they died. I'm just trying to say that if once a year is all that can be managed provided the contact is good your DC will know who she is. And these days with skype and such the possibilities for keeping in touch are far better.

She was too busy on her ALLOTMENT to come help you out? [outrage]

WTAF?

Stuff this for a game of soldiers.

Tell her that the travel doesn't suit you and that you will have to go off and think about how best to resolve the issue

Then leave it there.

fantastic - a spinal injury means there is NO WAY she will be able to look after 2 pre schoolers.

She is abusive. She may not hit or verbally attack, but she uses control and manipulation which is abuse. She uses divide and rule, and you have witnessed her behaving inappropriately with other family children. She is abusive - thats why councilling was a bad idea - she had drama and histrionics and expect she turned it round to being all about her.
The homophobic tag is a good one to use. she knows it isnt true. you know it isnt true, but it doesnt matter its a stick to beat you with, and you cannot win in trying to prove it.

I would stick to your guns, and tell her to contact me again when she is well enough to travel and look after the kids.

And read up about narcissists

The more I read the less I understand why you're being so helpful toward her. You're going out of your way beyond what most people would do if they did get on really well with their mother.

my mother was a toxic parent and i moved away asap. I then moved further still when i had DC and she started interfering with how i wanted to bring them up . However she has mellowed considerably with age, as she nears her 80s we have a kind of truce and get on far better, also she has never said anything worrying to my DC or behaved in a worrying way in front of them, her control, was always over me, as my mother she believed she had the right to control everything I did and was always right.
She also did a lot of childcare for my nieces and nephews as they grew up and I know for a fact that she was a good carer for them. She has been a good grandmother, just wasn't a particularly good Mum, especially when we (me and siblings) were young.

Hi givemeaclue - have posted on your Legal thread but that seems a bit redundant now I've read your update! I think this is the time you draw the line in the sand. You might not get this opportunity again so grab it with both hands. She has a spinal condition which prevents her from some travel but not all and yet allows her to care for two pre-schoolers?? It's all too convenient for her and it seems to me that perhaps she's using your children as a means to continue to emotionally blackmail you now that you've withdrawn from your own relationship with her....

Whatever her reasons, there are many reasons why this arrangement doesn't work for you and your kids as so eloquently set out by the other posters on this thread. You don't have to justify your reasoning to her nor do you have to work around her various demands and manipulations. There's a saying on MN that I love "No is a complete sentence" - use it - whether it's to part of her proposal or all. Do what works for you and the kids.

I agree with those saying that she is trying to manipulate you.

You don't owe her anything, not time with your children, nothing. She is not entitled to anything.

You are so desperate for your children to have a relationship with their nan (god knows why, perhaps you should try counselling to explore that) that you are allowing her to use that to her advantage.

I think all parents would wish for their parents to have close relationships with their gps in an ideal world. Sounds as though this comes at a cost to you OP and that at the moment you feel the price is too high? Or is the issue that you feel your mum is trying to control you?

Really, you are the one who gets to call the shots here as you have all the cards. Tell your mum what is acceptable to you and only compromise if you are truly happy to.

I agree with others who say that if your mother was a bad mother to you this doesnt mean she will be a bad gm. My mum is like this and she too had an abusive childhood and tried her best to give me a better one. My dd is 12 and is happy to spend time with her gm.

Sometimes my mum will say dodgy stuff to dd ( trying to control her life) but we talk through why she does it and it loses all its power over dd then.

Something needs to change here so that you take back more control of YOUR relationship with your mum. Good luck.

I don't yet have DC, but I did grow up in a family with a 'schism' (for religious reasons). I would also tend to assume your DM will - consciously or otherwise - start to make comments you may not be entirely happy with.

Most worrying to me though is the refusal to help by doing more travelling or as shown by the allotment incident. Hard to say seeing only a snippet of the story but istm that she isn't willing to do something that she'll gain by (because presumably based on your op she's really keen to see the grandchildren) where it is also helping you. That doesn't seem healthy.

thanks everyone I really appreciate you taking the time to reply...got lots more years of this aggro till the kids grow up aghghghghg

Only if you let it happen - she is miles away, the children are small, so essentially, whether or not you believe it at the moment, you, not your mother, is in charge of shaping how the various relationships develop.
Decide how much you truly want, not 'ought', to put up with and go from there.
It is tough, particuarly if you feel you 'owe' her for bringing you up. However, I am guessing that you didn't deliberately have your DC to 'repay' her IYSWIM.

Good luck with whatever you decide though - it is very difficult to step back from loved ones and think rationally about what's best.

"got lots more years of this aggro till the kids grow up"

No, you haven't.

She has a spinal condition that means she can't travel to yours, and probably can't look after two active kids by herself

They will be at school and therefore have limited availability.

You have limited financial resources and will not be paying for lots of flights.

You've only got more years of this aggro if you allow it. I still can't believe that someone who is so awful to/about you is going to be a good person for your children to spend time with, without you.

My MIL has a leg problem that absolutely prevents her (in her own eyes) travelling to us. Fine, it's exaggerated, and doens't stop her travelling elsewhere, it's a very convenient excuse.

So, here's what we do. We decide how much time and money we can afford for travelling to see her a year, then we let her know this and go from there. This year it's once (it's not in the UK) at a cheap time of year. This is not negotiable, if she wants to see them more, she will have to find a way of travelling with her bad leg like she does when she goes on holiday

Your mother is being absolutely manipulative. It's ridiculous planning years in advance their visits like this. Say you are sorry about her illness, it will make looking after the children difficult, so perhaps to let you know when she is better/able to cope. If she replies she can look after them, just be straight and say 'I can afford one trip again this year in August, but nothing after that I'm afraid' and stick to it.

She is making you dance to her tune, and although I am all for keeping strong relationships with Gp's and children, this is ridiculous. And tell her you can only plan one trip at a time in advance.

You are in charge here, they are your children!!!!!

So she won't be going to Spain, then?

You DON'T have years of aggro ahead of you if you don't want to.

You don't need to put yourself out for her, she doesn't for YOU. Doesn't stop her little jaunts off to Winter in Spain....

Do what suits you BEST. I'd imagine that means seeing and involving yourself and family as little as possible with her. The kids don't need contact with her. sounds like they'd do better without tbh.