Very murky behaviour from XP - or is it? Am so utterly saddened by this

[LowFlyingBirds]

Namechange as the background of this would be recognisable to anyone in RL.

ExP and I have stayed very, very good friends since splitting almost 4 years ago.

last month he recieved extremely bad news about his fathers health, he asked if i would go (along with our son) to his fathers home country. Did so that day and he very sadly died within days.

I found xp's behaviour very difficult to understand and it made an awful situation so much worse, he had been seeing someone for about 5 weeks and spent the run uo to his fathers death and the week or so after glued to his phone. It felt like we were in the way and I was struggling to understand why he wanted us there at all.

Tried to grin and bear it but came to a head after he let slip he had asked her to come out too, when she couldnt he was going to return to uk 5 days after his father died so he could keep a pre-arranged 'date' with her. I lost it with him at this point as i had been asking if we (me and ds) could return as I was worried about school and feeling very uncomfortable and drained byeverything there. He said no, or rather made me feel terrible for wanting to leave, so we stayed.

He agreed it would be completely wrong for him to leave, his mum needed him and we were there supposedly to support him.

It also became very clear that the nature of their conversations and constant messaging was not about support or any deep feelings they had for each other (which I could understand) but it was pretty much about sex grubby pictures, her relaying stories about threesomes, nights outs etc.

Huge fight ensued, i felt i didnt have a clue who this man was. he then seemed to really get how it looked, how their behaviour was making a mockery of the awful situation we were all trying to deal with. He was full of remorse and anger at himself and at her. Said he was using it as an escape and could see now that she absolutely expoited his weak position because she craves attention constantly. He told her to back off (they had been messaging constantly every day, talking and video calling every chance ) told her he was ashamed of his behaviour.

She didnt take this well and demanded he talk to her (ive seen the messages) every day there would be a new drama from her, or she would try to make him jealous, even as far as telling him all about the men who were after her on the day of the funeral. He said at this point he couldnt believe how sucked in he got by her and that he could see she was a very unpleasnt person. He told her it was over.

Ive always really looked up to him, and all of this really shook how I saw him but after lots of talking, i decided to try and think of his behaviour as a blip caused by the situation. We felt closer than we probably ever have and I have continued to support him since we all returned.

I have now found out that he shagged her the first opportunity he got. They have both made an utter mockery of his fathers death, his remorse means nothing now. If he meant a word of what he said he wouldnt be able to be in the same room as her let alone fuck her. And she didnt give a flying fuck about any of what was happening and she's got a massive pat on the back for it.

I feel like they are both terribly proud of what theyve done. And im devesated, cant even make sense of it.

Am i wrong in seeing this as awful behaviour? I honestly cant see straight. It feels awful, really dont think i ever knew him at all.

Are you from very different cultural backgrounds? Or class / financial difference?

It just seems like there is a massive void between you, like you will never live up to him. I may be wrong, but it seems like you have extremely Low self esteem.

It is still young. You don't really finish developing into a full adult until you're 25, and if you didn't get the right kind of support and love from your parents, it makes you even more vulnerable, and may have had parts of you that weren't fully developed.

Maybe this episode is showing you it's time to move on to the next phase in your life, where you meet your own needs, rather than hoping to have them met by someone who isn't treating you properly and who is, after all, an ex.

Your lack of romantic/sexual feelings for him may be a form of self protection BTW.

We are from different backgrounds yes. His family are very well to do, industrious...proper. Hes clever and successful.

Im sink estate, uneducated.

And i know how that sounds but i genuinely wouldnt consider myself as having low self esteem, the opposite in fact!

In which case, unromantic as it is, you both faintly relish having the intimacy and control over each other's lives that a partnership provides, without the sexual or romantic elements.

If you truly have no romantic or couply feelings then I don't see how you can possibly countenance getting back together, the problem is going to be exactly the same as it was. In which case, look carefully at why you said 'not something we can consider now' rather than 'You know that's not going to happen.' I understand he's grieving and you don't wan to upset him but I wonder if there's something going on here underneath.

You often make faintly self-accusing, guilty statements like 'It's all me', and 'My eyes were wide open', you clearly know that something about this relationship is a bit unhealthy and it's the ownership you both hold over each other.

I believe it's not romantic and I believe it's based in friendship but it's about being the closest people in each others' lives and the most important. When his father dies he calls you to come over, terribly sad obviously, but also a powerful position of prestige. When you discovered what he'd said about you you were outraged not just because he'd been cruel about you, but that someone else knew stuff from him you didn't. It completely rocked your foundations.

You are both in love, if not with each other, then with the power and intimacy and ownership between you, and you neither of you have much minded until now and this horrible messy fallout. It's a bit unhealthy, but I think you know that. And it will definitely hugely affect the type and quality of both of your future relationships. One of these things will happen; you will get back together and have the same issues as you did before, you will both stay single or be with partners who, for their own sad reasons, are prepared to put up with relationships that are lacking, or you will detach and move on and find relationships of higher quality but lose that intimacy between each other.

Up to you, OP. Good luck.

Clever and successful but somehow can't quite manage to provide financial support for his son.

Have you started to judge yet LowFlying?

I feel sorry for you, OP.
You have had some excellent advice and insights on here, not sure I'm going to add to them but your story strikes me in two ways:

1. your faith in this man as a good person and friend has been rocked, because he said one thing to you and then did something completely different. This has shaken your opinion of him completely and made you wonder how much you really know this man, this father of your child. It has also possibly shaken your faith in yourself, for believing him, and for your own ability to tell a good man from a bad, which may have future implications for you. I don't think it's the actual acts that matter so much, it's his behaviour and his deceit that are doing your head in.
2. This is far more left field. I had a friend who was with a bloke for a few months, then split up and they stayed good friends. For at least 3 years, they were good friends, saw other people, she maintained she had no physical or romantic feelings for this man, just friends. Yet they were in daily contact, saw each other quite a lot (as friends) - you get the picture. No children involved though. Anyway - the man wasn't quite so disinterested as she was, and eventually he decided that "just friends" really wasn't doing him any favours and so cut contact right down - it made her realise that actually he was a massive part of her life, and when the withdrawal of that was threatened, she also realised that she really did love him (honestly, there is no other "he was the only bloke she could get" type scenario, far from it) and they got married the next year (still together). So - and I'm not saying it's true for you, of course not, but IS there a possibility that it might be? I know my friend would have sworn herself blue in the face that it wasn't true until her "epiphany" - just wondering if you're on the edge of a similar epiphany.

Of course, it's just as likely that you're not - and that you just feel hurt as a friend - that your friendship matters less to your ex than a "cheap shag", as you have apparently come to think of it.

No one likes being lied to or deceived, or taken for a fool - friend, family or lover, it always hurts. Maybe that's all this is, in the end.

Sorry, that's not very cohesive as a post but there might be something useful in there.

But he isn't having his need met in a way that blocks other people. He gets loads of fun and excitement.

While you're on his string.

If it was equal, you'd be shagging other people and coming back to him for advice/whatever - but you're not, are you?

He gets everything - sex, romance, an ear, support, access to dc as & when - and you get far less, and a dependence on him that stops you looking elsewhere. In fact you might as well still be married to him and shrugging off his affairs, (because he loves you really - not).

Thank you VE, youve been bloody brilliant x

clever and successful, but in debt and no better than any of the sad shits we see on the relationships board sex-texting instead of having a healthy relationship

koda absolutely

like I said way upthread, and LFB didn't acknowedge, she is still in a relationship with him but all she gets are the shit parts

I think it's probably OK to judge someone who was sexting whilst sitting beside their dying father. That's pretty bad, even in the extremes of grief.

good luck lowflying. i think the best thing for you is to detach but you've been stuck in a complicated dance that's not that easy to get out of.

Well then i need to work out why it doesnt feel shit.

Thumbwitch, no that was a great post. Very insightful.

Because you come from a dysfunctional family so you've been trained to put up with mega crap uncomplainingly, and in fact even feel grateful for the attention.

Now we've settled that, are you going to detach?

Did you grow up in a dysfunctional family? What was your dad like?

Why do you think you're worth so little?

Detach....yes.

I had actually detached quite a bit since the autumn and things were shite as a result but i stood firm.

This only ended when he got the news about his dad and asked for my support.

I have tried to detach since last week when i realised hed gone back to gf. But he is still asking for support. As ive said, im finding it hard to keep him at a distance, i want to be there for him but i know this all has to stop.

Dysffunctional family, yes.

Tyrant mother. Absent father and then Not Nice stepdad.

Just had something of an epiphany, probably not the most important of epiphanies i could be having now but still....

I think maybe im so utterly gutted that he went back to her after her behaviour and how badly he said he thought of her. I always tend to think that i cant be that bad a person if someone as decent as him loved me, but actually i see now he is perfectly capable of wanting to be with someone who is actually a bit shit. That getting his needs met - sex, housewifery etc- trumps any reservations he may have about character and worthiness.

Actualy, typing thst out it all seems a bit woo now but made complete sense in my head.

I don't think I can carry on posting on this thread, because you seem determined to continue engaging with the relationship this time by analysing why it's not working, and why you're in it. You could look at it forever and nothing would change and you'll continue to be used.

So if you'd like my advice FWIW, find ways of replacing whatever it is he gives you, the needs he fulfils, the feelings he gives you (e.g. security) with other more healthy sustainable relationships or behaviours. If you can get your needs met in other ways you won't feel so dependent on him and you'll be able to truly detach.

It would also be worth going back and examining your childhood and relationships with parents, including your absent dad, and parallels with feelings you're experiencing now e.g. having a parent on a pedestal is very common with absent parents especially fathers. They generally have feet of clay which is why they aren't there. Do this without your ex in the picture however.

Have you noticed that you have boundary issues with anyone else in your life? Other men? Has anyone ever mentioned it to you before?

you don't need him to validate you lfb, really you don't
you have got into this pattern with him. I sympathise, I have a tendency to try and prove myself to my ex. If you see it for what it is you can move on

That seems like a profound and quite sad epiphany LFB and well done for going there in your head.

The fact that you depend so much on his approval and his relationship with you defining your esteem is worrying and you need to find all that security from somewhere else.

He is revealing himself a bit and you need to really understand that he is not perfect, far from it.

It indicates that either he lied to you about how he feels or worse, he's prepared to have intimate relationships with nasty pieces of work. That must rock you a bit.

He does not sound particularly decent, OP. He sounds flawed and a bit of a 'taker'. I do think there may be a class element to this also, and a need to not have men abandon you (or this man abandon you particularly). I suspect he makes you feel important and needed. That's why you don't experience it as 'shit'. But I think he does that by utilising your natural female compassion and kindness. By Taking. That is all about what he is GETTING (from either of you) not who you are and what you are.

Oh to be needed! Such a passive, idolising wish. If only you could refocus that misplaced adoration back onto yourself, clearly more deserving of it.

Thank you nyac. Youve also been of great help.

I dont blame you for bowing out, im having a whirl of thoughts and i know its frustrating.

I really am wanting to end this, im just venting and trying to work things out cos i havent been seeing anything clearly.

If its any consolation i asked for this thread to be deleted and then when i saw the insight from everyone withdrew the request.

I am getting there, honestly.