selfish behaviour

[tillytips]

Hello,

Am furious, nobody else to rant at so am typing furiously, please forgive any spelling mistakes.
I have just found out that my husband had a bonus from work two years ago of £11k and never said a word. Not a thing. I was looking for a P60 as im trying to figure out if i'll lose my child benefit next year and i came across a wage slip from April 2010.
I am devastated. I cant work full time because of school runs etc etc, so i work part time, i've lost my tax credits because he earns too much and will now lose my child benefit. This comes directly to me as my "wage" if you like for nto being able to work full time. so i'm going to lose all that. I've taken on a clening job so i can make ends meet and then i find this out.
We ahve seperate bank accounts, i struggle constantly, he clearly doesn't, i pay for the kids stuff, phones etc out of my meagre wages.

This has always been a problem, whilst i was pregnant and couldn't work (self employed at the time) he didn't give me a single penny, my parents bought me maternity clothes as he wouldn't. I went back to work when my baby was two weeks old.

I've no idea where the money is, he is famously tight as a ducks arse, so its sitting somewhere in one of his numerous bank accounts, he certainly hasn't spent it. He doesn't buy anthing ever, and we don't go on holiday.

Don't get me wrong i'm not expecting him to have given it to me but not telling me is unforgiveable.

I've supported him and his job for a long time, he works away from home a lot and i'm left to do everything by myself. He has been suffering from stress recently and i found out he was confiding in a female work colleague, i knew nothing about the situation as he doesn't tell me anything. I let that go because of his health, but this has been the final straw today.

Ok, rant over.

If he is serious about changing then he needs to show you his payslips, statements, provide passwords for online statements etc as well as paying his salary into a joint account.

Do you love this man, honey? Do you want to remain married to him?

If so, I'm going to go against the flow here and say that on the basis of your first round of 'negotiations' having resulted in presumably c2grand* being transferred to your bank account, I believe that there is some potential for him to change his miserly ways.

As I see it, given that it appears that he's aware (and I suspect has been all along) that he'll have to put his hand in his wallet bigtime if you proceed to divorce him, the pendulum of power in your relationship has swung in your favour and, if you play your cards right, he and his your joint savings will be putty in your hands.

He's sweating at prospect of parting with what he sees as solely his hard-earned cash at the moment and you need to keep the momentum going.

Give him 24 hours to produce a full set of accounts showing where the money he's deprived his family of for the past umpteen years is buried and make it clear that if he doesn't comply you will indeed be seeking legal advice.

Add that if you have any cause to believe that the balance sheet he produces has been subject to creative accounting, you'll make an appointment with a solicitor who specialises in divorce and family law at the earliest opportunity.

With regard to counselling tell him that, since you've realised what an utter mug you've been and what a conniving, meanminded, lowdown, miserly piece of gobshite he is, any respect you had for him has gone into freefall.

Say that if he doesn't come up with substantial proposals to make amends to you and to the dc, your few remaining fond feelings for him will crash and burn and no amount of sessions with Relate or similar will cause them to rise phoenix-like from the ashes.

Make it clear to him that this situation has been created by him and it is wholly down to him to resolve it by radically changing his ways.

If you have the will and the mind for it, I'm confident that you can make a man out of him - and your pals here will do their utmost to ensure that it'll be driving lessons & car on passing his test for your ds, any expensive toys your dd desires, a grand holiday for you all, and no more scrimping and watching pennies for you.

*am I right in my assumption of the sum he's transferred to date?

Do I love him? I'm not sure but the thought of living without him, despite everything is terrifying.
I can't bring myself to speak to him at the moment, he knows i am hurt, this morning he told me he was a fool and that if we are going to stay together then we have to make the most of our lives. He suggested going away for the weekend.

My daughter is not coping well. She suffers from separation anxiety disorder, so the thought of one of us not being here is taking its toll on her.We're not arguing in front of her, but she knows he is sleeping on the sofa.

Yes he has transferred £1800 into our joint account and told me to take it. I haven't. He has also set up a direct debit into a joint savings account of £75.00 a month. to save for anything that we want in the home.
this is a huge step forward for him,s o i do believe he want to make amends.
also the promise of reimbursing me for my child benefit, if i should lose it next year.

Trying to get him to understand that the only reason he has been able to work the hours he does and get the bonuses , is because of the support network he has at home. he's never had t do any childcare or take time off work to sort the kids out or when they are ill as i've done it. Working for my family business means that i can be flexible which he has used to his advantage.
He works bloody hard, don't get me wrong, but it's the priniciple of the thing surely.
If i can work to get my name on his main savings account, the one with 20k in(was 20k last time i knew) then we may have a breakthrough. i don't intend to spend this money, but knowing that i can if i want to would be some sort of security.

I do think we need counselling. I will broach the subject again, when i can bring myself to look at him.

Do you think its a case of too little, too late?

It seems he thinks a weekend away will make things better

You see, if he was truly mortified at having been found out at the way he's behaved, then you shouldn't need to "work" at getting your name onto anything .....

.... HE would have immediately sat you down, apologised profusely, begged your forgiveness, and shown you everything - so you didn't have to wonder how much is in that particular savings account for example. HE would have immediately offered to put all savings/investments into joint names, and, initiated a discussion with you about how finances will be dealt with from now on in, e.g. completely combining all income sources, paying all regular bills, deducting any occasional expenses due that month, and then equally dividing up what's left so you BOTH have the same amount to spend. HE should have also, in the circumstances, immediately offered to make it up to you and the kids in some way for all the years you've been (needlessly) missing out. HE would also give you the passwords for anything online so you're never left in the dark again.

He hasn't done that has he ? :(

He's kindly donated £1800 ..... which I think is him buying time TBH. The house budget thing is okay in itself but misses the overall point. The offer to replace CB lost next year is hardly being over generous since no doubt it'll be spent on food, school stuff etc anyway.

I think he's trying to keep you sweet, at least for the moment, with as little as possible. You are married FFS ... whatever happened to what's mine is yours and vice versa ? He may appear to be apologetic but he's still controlling the finances isn't he. He's still giving away - both literally and figuratively - as little as he thinks he can get away with. You may find that while you're still very cool with him that he'll "offer up" something else to bribe you with - such as this weekend, but after such a prolonged and calculated campaign of being selfish, being very ecconomical with the truth (at best) and of treating his wife and kids as second class citizens less worthy of having family money spent on them than he is, the only satisfactory solution to all this (and even then, I don't know if it would be enough for you to forgive him and move on, because some betrayals are too big) is TOTAL financial equality.

The important thing to keep reminding yourself of here is WHY - if he's apparently such a "fool" and wants to stay married - has he NOT instigated that equality which is long overdue and which you undeniably deserve ? I mean, why not ? What possible reason can he have for not doing this if he's serious about what he says ? ............ ah yes, he's hedging his bets, he still sees that money as "his" and his alone (probably thinks he's doing you an immense favour by throwing you a few crumbs), and worst case, at the back of his mind, it's a running away (at some point) fund.

Frankly a weekend away wouldn't do it for me. A weekend .... when, if you sat down and worked it out, you and the kids have probably lost out to the tune of thousands over the years while he's been indulging his penchant for designer gear etc. It's a bloody insult really. A weekend comes after you've sorted out what is very fundamentally very wrong ..... not before, because the underlying problem will still be there.

I mean, just how bloody long do you have to wait before he mans up over this ? ........ and even then, I still think you'd need counselling big style to come to terms with what's been going on, and to deal with the hurt and betrayal. You shouldn't have to nag, beg or manipulate him in order to put things right. All that should come from him - except it hasn't. I'm so very sorry for you because his heel dragging says it all really ...... if I were in your shoes I'd be starting to think it was ultimatum time: full disclosure, full access, equal division NOW, or else you instigate separation/divorce proceedings. And make it clear that when those issues had been righted, the future of your marriage still wasn't guaranteed as you need time to decide if you can come to terms with what's he's done.

Brilliant post Catsmother

can i just point out that i'm not actually speaking to him. He's put these things to me and i've not responded. I know he is panciking, and without thinking properly he's coming out with possible solutions.

I've got a lot of thinking to do, but we're not all the same, relationships work differently, just because something works for one family doesn't mean it will work for someone else.

I agree that the savings need to be joint, but i've not broached that subject yet, it's easy to say he should have offered this immediatley but he doesn't think like that. We have not had time yet to sit down and discuss what should happen. I need to be calmer before we talk about this.

I'm not a quitter and i'm not stupid although some of you may disagree, but if i can come to a happy arrangement, one in which i am more in control and can also save my family unit then i owe it to my kids to try.

Money is the root of many a family problem. I've friends who put it all in one pot, but daren't spend any as hubby goes through it with a fine tooth comb and "says you've ahd £100 more than me this month". Another friend whose husband gives her a monthly allowance which she hates as it makes her feel like a child giving her pocket money.
Who's to say what is the right way? It has to be right for me.

Whatever i decide, i've got to deal with the trust issue on top of that. That was my real issue here, the fact that he didn't tell me. He's going to be too f***g scared to hide anything else from me that's for sure.

Amen, Catsmother!

x posts. Tilly love, your rationalizing and minimizing how bad this is. But you obviously have your reasons for that. I kind of understand why you're in that headspace right now, tbh. He's got you so ground down you don't even know what is normal anymore. DO NOT measure your relationship by your friends to make it seem more acceptable, listen to the hundred or so people on here who are unbiased and detached from the situation.

Yes it's easy to say 'leave him' on a forum. But he has behaved disgustingly and I don't think you're grasping the severity of this. You're probably still in shock. :(

i know he's behaved badly,but now i feel like i'm being bullied, " i do it this way, so you should too"

I'm not measuring my realtionship against others, just pointing out that all they also have issues with control, just different ones from me. So what the hell is "normal"?

Go see a lawyer and come back with the information for him there in black and white - if you divorce, the majority of it will come to you BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY LEGALLY FUCKING BELONGS TO YOU AS MUCH AS HIM.

Then tell him that you will indeed be filing for divorce unless:

• all accounts are made joint
• you speak to an accountant together and sort out any disparities in pension, savings etc.
• statements come through you too so you know what is going in and out.

Basically, he does what normal people do in normal marriages and realises that you are FINANCIALLY HIS PARTNER WITH A 50% SHARE IN YOUR MARRIAGE.

There is no compromise here. You can also point out:

• in keeping you 'short', actually all he is doing is weakening the family finances. What does he work hard for, exactly? To have amazing times which his family aren't in on? How is that worth anything, really? Wouldn't it be more satisfying to come home to a family base that is SUPPORTED and PROTECTED by the power of the family earnings, rather than coming home to a resentful stressed partner who is worrying about her credit card bill? It's like having a garage full of sealant and watching the shower leak into the kitchen and doing nothing. It's utterly financially stupid. Unless, of course, he sees himself as not part of your family in some way.

• once you are jointly responsible, he will see a difference in the family, through you. He will see for a start that you have no intention of further weakening things by spending foolishly, for a start. Life will improve overall.

If he agrees to all this, of course what you'll be doing once things are underway is getting your OWN accountant in to check you aren't being diddled...

Look love, I have lived with a selfish man and its only recently that I am able to look back and realise just how much I let him get away with things.

I recognise what you are doing - playing down things, settling for the minimum etc because its easier. The problem is that doing this means it often comes back to bite you on the bum very hard as it did in my case.

I really didn't mean to make you feel bad Tilly - that's the last thing you need. I just feel very sorry for you and very angry on your behalf. Yes ... of course different families work in different ways, and as you say, it needs to be right for you. But I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you accepted any sort of solution which wasn't at least fair. In a partnership, no single party should be at a disadvantage to the other - and in a family, no children should be going without (yes, apprecaite that's subjective) while at least one of their parents is burning money on fripperies.

The trust issue is huge, of course. I hope you're right that he won't keep anything from you in the future. But I also think you need to protect yourself, and, for example, knowing that he has a savings account with £xxxx in it, isn't quite the same thing as having that account in joint names, and/or an account of your own with the same sum. Fact is ... he has betrayed your trust for many years, and I'm not sure how you regain that without total transparency and equality. He has a history going back years showing he was untrustworthy - if he was prepared to act like that, then what's to say he wouldn't do it all again, but be more careful about it ...... as things stand, that'd be relatively easy what with his payslips being online via a company intranet. In theory, he could lie about future bonuses, payrises, whilst assuring you he hasn't had any, and without access to his online account you'd be none the wiser. Similarly, he might keep a much closer hold on future P60s. In the circumstances, you'd have every right to reassure yourself 100% about that sort of thing - i.e. seeing it for yourself in black and white.

As for him not putting savings into joint names, because he "doesn't think like that" ..... well, that's the whole issue in a nutshell isn't it ! Most people in serious relationships DO think like that ..... those that don't are (unless the couple have agreed to entirely separate finances) some or all of the following: selfish, entitled, financially abusive, planning to escape, spending money secretly. If anything should have made him think like that, surely to God it would have been the sight and sound of his visibly upset wife telling him she'd found him out.

I'm sorry to harp on but as you say yourself you can't trust him and you owe it to yourself and your kids to protect yourself as much as you possibly can. Doing that doesn't necessarily mean your marriage is doomed, but then you'd be okay whatever happens.

Oh, and I'd start referring to this as 'our money', 'our finances', 'our funds'. Because it is, and he doesn't understand this. He is defrauding you. He either agrees to restart things on a reasonable basis or you will dissolve the marriage and withdraw your considerable funds from the partnership.

'If the only way for me to have access to the funds that are rightfully mine is to dissolve the marriage and withdraw those funds from the partnership, that is what I will have to do.'

Speak in a language he understands.

Tilly,

You need to read and reread what Catsmother has written.

re your comment:-
"I'm not a quitter and i'm not stupid although some of you may disagree, but if i can come to a happy arrangement, one in which i am more in control and can also save my family unit then i owe it to my kids to try"

Do you trust him?.

There will be no subsequent happy arrangement; he is not going to cave that easily if at all actually.

Relationships do work differently but financially abusive marriages like yours play out like this. It is only when you are free that you will fully realise the extent to which you have been used by this man.

No you are not a quitter but saving the family unit - well you were not put on this earth to rescue that nor to save your financially abusive H from himself. You cannot and must not act as either a rescuer or saviour here; such approaches never work. Staying within this for the sake of the children rarely works out well; they may well come to ask you why you continued to put him before them. They will know that you're living a lie.

What are they learning from the two of you re marriage?. A legacy of being financially abused within the marriage is truly not one you want to pass onto your children as they could well go onto adopt such unhealthy patterns themselves or even pick abusive partners.

He has destroyed this marriage by his actions; controlling men like this are angry men to boot and he has given you crumbs. He is not truly remorseful here and the little he has offered you is far too little and far too late.

It would be pissing me off more now knowing how easily he is throwing money at you to make it up to you - when for years he has watched you struggle. He must have known what you were earning, your bills, the Cat's bill - why would he just do nothing?

Good luck with what you decide.

Why do controlling men use money to control their financially un-empowered female partners? ANSWER: Because they can. No, seriously, they think they need their spouse?s financial dependence upon them. It adds to their sense of relationship security.

From their perspective, it?s their money anyway. And they know you need some, want some and have no other means to attract any. So they enjoy the privilege of holding this green carrot in front of you in order to keep you in line.

You, on the other hand, enjoy ?your? privilege of having his/our money to spend, as you need it. And you love that there is always enough, or so it seems. That is, there are sufficient funds available to cover your interests and desires...unless you have one that he objects to.

Never forget that controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour. My guess too is that there is emotional abuse wrapped up within all this financial abuse as well.

Do you know what, this is making me more confused?

No emotional abuse involved whatsoever. Just this financial mess.

You see, the whole point of abuse is for the abuser to get his (okay, not always "his") way. Why beat someone up if you intimidate with a glance? And in your case, why emotionally abuse you if he gets to keep all his money by hiding it from you? Financial abuse is emotional abuse. Ultimately, he just doesn't care about your well-being.

Sorry, tilly. I know you're working your way through a very painful discovery. I don't think anybody is trying to criticize you for accepting the situation or telling you what "should" happen.

You know, you dont HAVE to divorce him.

some people just have really crap priority's (i.e one of my beloved rellies) and they dont really realize what they're doing.

at the end of the day this is your relationship and people can be really fast to jump up and scream that you should divorce him. If you think this is a problem that can be resolved and worked through, then go for it. If this isnt the case and you really dont want to be with your husband anymore, thats ok too. think it through carefully. I suggest taking a week away from this thread and concentrating on your relationship and what you want to happen with it. All the best op xxxxx

Tilly just a quick post as dashing off to meeting- bit I was in v v similar situation 6 months ago. Just twigged how unfair dh's money situation was. I also felt bullied a bit by mumsnet but here I am now, struggling to get te courage up to leave because THEY ARE RIGHT. He is abusing you.

The abuse bit I found hard to reconcile too- but how can someone who is supposed to love you more than anyone else in the whole world stand by and let you struggle? It's cruel and selfish, and whilst my dh has made more effort if late it's too late and i don't trust him.

Let it breathe for a bit and one you've calmed down you'll be able to think more clearly. Do things at your own pace.

Stay angry it makes a difference. You can't in-know something once the penny drops and that's hard to live with but so are tight hubs ands and we manage that!

Un-mnetty xxxx's

I don't think anyone actually said she HAD to divorce him... I think the angle most of us were coming from (I certainly was) is that IF they were to divorce, she would be entitled to half of everything and her H needs to think about that very carefully. Since money appears to mean more to him than people, it's likely to be the most effective way of getting through to him.

I don't want to be divorced, i also know this WILL NOT continue, one way or the other.
I have drawn up a list today of what i want to happen and the changes that must be made. (At work but can't concentrate, so bugger it :) it will be my way or the highway as they say.
If he does not agree than well, that will be it and as hard as it may be, i won't back down from this.

I've also got a list of questions, i want answers to.

He does have really crap priorities Chrono, you are right and he really doesn't think. However i also obviously haven't complained loudly enough about how i struggle.

I do believe that he loves me, although i agree he has a damn funny way of showing it.

I've asked for your advice and i thank you for it, some was useful, some not so, i have felt a bit bullied which is not a nice feeling when you are 40 years old, but i also realise that you have felt angry on my behalf.

I will take chronos advice and go away and think about this, i musn't let other people cloud my judgement, it's me that has to live with my decision, whichever way it pans out.
Whilst you can only go on the impression of the man that i have given you, and i realise it wasn't very favourable, i can't blame you for that, i've got to do this on my own to my terms.

If i come back in six months and say you were right he's a bellend, then you can all say i told you so.
Hopefully he'll prove me wrong and this may be the massive kick up the coconuts he needs.

Thanks guys xxxx

Good luck tilly.