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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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DV: Advice from someone who turned their R around (so worth it)

337 replies

Abitwobblynow · 06/02/2012 04:19

This is an extract from KIM COOPER's book 'Through the Looking Glass' It is available on download and you search narcissismcured.com The comment at the end is from her now-grown-up husband explaining things from his point of view and what her behaviour did for him.

Step 4. If he is Intimidating Call The Police
Again, when you call the police, don?t expect miracles or be overly emotional with them. If they ask what you want them to do, say, ?I want you to tell him what the consequences will be if he continues to intimidate/threaten/assault me.? If he runs away when the police come, you can still talk to them and make sure it is on record and that he knows you reported it. Still, you need to insist that they talk to him directly about the consequences of his behaviour. While they are talking to you, try to do it out of his earshot but where he can still see you, so he is left wondering what has been said. (Say, ?Can I talk to you over there?? and point to where you want to move the conversation). This is a really important point that the police taught me. One officer talked to me for twenty minutes, leaving Steve waiting where he could see us. He said, ?See, he is wondering now what we are talking about and let him wonder!?
You need to let him know that you will not tolerate emotional or physical intimidation and that he is going to have to deal with the consequences, not you. If you have already gone in to the police and spoken to the head of D.V. (domestic violence) it will help a lot. Just knowing this person?s name will make the police attending respect you better. In my case I got an AVO (apprehended violence order) on Steve (where he could still remain living with us) and this was very worthwhile. This was in Australia and I don?t know if they have something similar where you live but I hope so. Once the order is in place, if he intimidates or hits you again, he will go straight to jail. If he needs to go to jail to see you are serious about this boundary, so be it. You mustn?t try and protect him from the consequences of his bad behaviour.
The court brought us back three times on the assault charge that precipitated the order. I found this frustrating, but in retrospect it was important. Each time they said Steve was not ready and had to prepare better. This taught him that his bad treatment of me was more serious than he had thought. The male judge and police officers in the court room looked very disapproving and that helped too! Many men who mistreat their wives grew up with men who did the same, so Steve seeing these men who were respected and in authority really disapproved of his behaviour was a big wake up call. Their disapproval really sunk in and made a big change in him. The judge also thanked me for my time and even commented how nicely groomed I was. This might have been because I had made the effort to make friends with the police, but whatever reason it was a very good day for me. They made me feel very solid, strong and supported and showed Steve he was on shaky ground.
Some men whose wives assault them do not feel they can get the police to help. If this is your situation, I think it is important that you do. You do not have to play victim in court or with the police, but instead you might want to say that you are concerned about her behaviour and that she needs to learn it is not okay and that you do not want to be forced to restrain her or play policeman in your own home. The truth is that women, just like men, can be very scary and dangerous when they are violent.
The AVO helped us because Steve then knew that if he intimidated, threatened or hurt me again (and in his case one of the provisions of the order was that he could not drink at home or
16
come home if he had been drinking) and I decided to call the police, he would be put straight in jail. This was important. He learned that he no longer had the upper hand and was not going to get away with sweet-talking anyone anymore. The power balance was now swinging in my favour.
If you can get a provision like this (that he can?t come home if he has been drinking, or something very easy to prove) in the AVO, it is really good, then it is not about the police taking sides. Once the AVO is in place, if you call and he is at home and has been drinking, he gets locked up, that?s it, no telling stories. He does not have the chance to charm anyone or provoke a fight, or confabulate and confuse things. I would still let Steve drink, but he knew there was a line in place and what would happen if he crossed it.
Fortunately, I never had to have Steve put in jail, but that was only because he knew I would call without hesitation if he ever tried to intimidate me again.
This will be a big disincentive to your partner continuing to disrespect you, but you have to be prepared to go through with it. Again, the only reason I didn?t have to have Steve put in jail was because he saw without a doubt I would do it. This is really important - as threats won?t work, he has to know you mean it, and that will probably involve you having the police over a few times. Don?t call them as a threat or because you are angry, call them if you feel you need protection. The sooner you do this and the calmer you are about it (?Honey, I don?t know how to handle you when you are like this so I think I am going to need to get the police here to talk to you?) the more effective this will be. You might also choose to quietly call first, then explain this, or he may try to stop you.
He might tell you he is not in control of his behaviour, but I am telling you that he only intimidates or puts people down who he thinks are weaker than he is. He?s not insulting big guys in bars, he makes decisions about who he can get away with this behaviour with. You need to become the wrong person for him to pick on.
This was quite troubling for me. The experience of court was horrible. I realised that I had made a terrible mistake and that the law was there to punish me. The D.V. officer from the police explained the terms of my Apprehended Violence Order and they were that I was to obey the terms or be thrown in jail. His words were simple and matter of fact, ?Prison is a tough place to survive.? That was enough for me, but I DID need to be told. Kim was sad the day we went to court, I could see that she was very disappointed that our relationship had come to this, but she kept a brave face and knew she was doing the right thing. This experience I will remember forever, and I cannot ever have my conviction for ?common assault? overturned. Society, through a magistrate, was able to make a statement to me that my behaviour was unacceptable. I had crossed a boundary that I obviously had no respect for. Steve

OP posts:
Legobuildingpro · 06/02/2012 10:32

Holy shit op!

Just because your husband is a complete plank. Why would you be posting tripe in every thread, come what may encouraging people to stay in duff relationships.

Your posts in this thread, are quite frankly dangerous, stupid, uneducated and very, very inaccurate.

KRITIQ · 06/02/2012 10:38

Hattytown, it sounds like you know more about the OP personally and certainly your post sounds like very sound advice to any woman who is in a relationship that they wish to preserve (at all costs) and who are seeking "advice" that will "help" them to do that. I understand why folks do that - clinging to every last shred of hope that by some miracle, everything will be okay. Sadly, writers like Kim Cooper make a fortune off the backs of women's hopes and fears like this. BlackCatsAndPurpleDogs comparison with weight loss pundits isn't actually far off the mark.

In my experience, when folks continuously ask "why do women go back," despite many, many people patiently explaining the plethora of complex and often inter-linked reasons -like this one for example or comments following this article by Patrick Stewart, it's because they aren't at a place in their lives and in their heads where they are able to engage with those reasons. They'll reject anything that doesn't "fit" with what they can cope with, what they need to hear at that moment.

But, stuff can still percolate through, folks can begin to look at things differently, or they can have light bulb moments and then shift their thinking and their actions.

As RachelWalsh points out, no woman needs to practice "exercises" to become "more attractive and build lasting love," with a man. Men and women are capable of loving and forming lasting, equitable, nurturing relationships without coercion, control and manipulation. It simply isn't possible for one person to make another person change. That has to come from and be motivated by the individual. So many folks have been deeply hurt by believing the fallacy that they can change another person to be what they want them to be. It doesn't work.

PosieParker · 06/02/2012 10:42

I am a bit confused OP. Are you really saying that a good relationship can exist if one person stops hitting another because they are ffrightened of the police? Surely not wanting to hot and hurt someone would be far more successful?

singingprincess · 06/02/2012 10:45

When I realised the reality of my marriage, I found this website...it's easy to find..it pops up everywhere you try to research.

I listened to some of their podcasts, and subscribed to their emails.

But they don't know what they are talking about, really. They are targeting incredibly vulnerable women, who want "the violence to stop but not the relationship"

Who wouldn't want that, of course you don't want the man you love to be controlling and violent. That's dead easy to understand.

But the solution is NOT so easy to understand.

I will share with you something my therapist said last week.

She said that asking my h to leave the family home was not only an act of my love for me and my dc, but actually, as the first time anyone had shown him any boundaries in his life, ever, it was an act of love toward him too. Staying with an abusive man is doing him no favours either, because they don't stand a cat in hells chance of even understanding their own behaviour and why it's so wrong, let alone doing anything to "change" it!

Do you see how far off the mark this pair of cynical, money grabbing, jokers are?

QuintessentialyHollow · 06/02/2012 10:45

The reason why what you say is bolleux is that you assume, incorrectly, that men can change and stop their abusive behaviour.

They cant. At least 99.9999% cant. And if you show me a group of men that profess to have changed, I will assume they have just become better at hiding the violence, and their partners will concur that they have changed, they are too scared not to.

Which is why most posters here post in the hope that the woman actually will leave, because there is a higher likelihood that she will leave, than that the abuser will change.

And this is why your advice is not only full of shit, it is dangerous too. Angry

Hattytown · 06/02/2012 10:52

Yes Kritiq that's exactly it. I think when people are in a place when they don't want to leave, they will cling to material such as this like it's a life-raft but as you say, some of these 'self-help' works are written by complete charlatans who exploit people's vulnerability and make money off the back of it. And since proportionately more women buy and read this crap (and are also more likely to be the survivors of abusive behaviour) it's anti-women and anti-feminist. I don't 'know' the OP either, but have come across her on various threads and feel concerned for her (sorry to talk about you in the third person OP) and the position she is taking. I just wanted to stop posters thinking she was a man or that she meant harm. I don't think her intentions are harmful iyswim, but the effect of threads like this might be very harmful.

singingprincess · 06/02/2012 11:27

I'm so sorry OP, this is NOT want you want to hear is it? I STILL don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. We have been separated for 6 months now, and I can see massive improvements in my dc. Because it is the truth. It just is.

I used to catch myself in the mirror, and say to myself, "you know what you have to do Princess......you have to face this"

This pair are taking the piss out of people like me, and I am not too happy about that. I'm just very glad I didn't part with any money in my desperation to not see the truth.

swallowedAfly · 06/02/2012 11:46

thanks hatty and kri tiq - found your posts really interesting and helpful.

i'm shocked that this site and book exist - what an utterly, cynical and exploitative way to make a living. horrible.

a man who enjoys beating you but stops beating you for fear of arrest (if indeed that did happen or you weren't killed in the process of going through that) he would still be a man who feels the urge to hurt you and feels the right to do so. how could that ever be a good relationship? he wants to hurt you, he feels pleasure, power etc from hurting you and doesn't see you as a full human being. you think he's suddenly going to become a decent human being who 'loves' you and is good to be in a relationship with and good to have around children?

this is so deluded and infantalising of men and denying of the realities of what violence is about.

BertieBotts · 06/02/2012 15:06

The freedom programme is a LOT more successful than abuse perpetrator programmes, in terms of participants who go on to future abusive relationships.

What does that tell you? Yes, women who go from abusive relationship to abusive relationship are following a pattern, just as an abuser follows a pattern, but the difference is that in a serial victim, these patterns can be changed and healed.

Abusive men, most of the time, cannot change. Even if they want to. It is sad, it's awful, but the best we can do is try to avoid continuing the cycle, get our sons and daughters away from thinking this is normal.

swallowedAfly · 06/02/2012 15:48

we could do with having a register for serial abusers and dv perpetrators.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 06/02/2012 15:48

I was going to say that I was shocked a publishing house would print such garbage but I see they are just self-published ebooks. Whew.

This is dangerous, dangerous stuff. How many women have broken bones because of this? It's appalling.

swallowedAfly · 06/02/2012 15:55

yep cynical online money making.

akin to those 'want to see a tip for losing a stone in 24hrs' type sites or to someone setting up a page with a link to a paid for ebook that claims to be able to cure various long term illnesses of the kind that make people very miserable and they wish there was a magic wand for.

exploitation of the vulnerable.

fuzzywuzzy · 06/02/2012 16:02

I had to stop reading comments at wobblies studies.

I was married to a violent man for a long time, I had no desire to control him, so there was no power struggle at all within our relationship, I've never been one to insist on being in charge or calling the shots or whatever, he still beat the crap out of me on a regular basis.

I'm sure people can be rehabilitated, but for me personally, it was not going to happen within the relationship dynamics of my marriage.

I would never ever suggest to a woman in a violent relationship to do anything other than leave, or prepare to leave.

I believe people can change, I do not believe hanging around and being someones punch bag in the hopes a person will change is going to make them change.

I sincerely hope ex has changed because he now has re-married and I do not wish for my children to witness him beating ten bells out of another woman (let alone another woman living thro what I did), they've witnessed and experienced more than enough to last their entire little lives.

I'm with the crap and tripe side on this one, it's passing the responsibility of a grown persons behaviour on to the victim and that is wrong. I'm not repsonsible for ex's behaviour I never was.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 06/02/2012 16:05

No charity would give this sort of advice. No state agency would either. Neither would a counsellor worth their salt. Nor would anybody who has successfully left an abusive relationship and rebuilt their damaged self esteem.

The only people who would shill this garbage are unaccredited shysters desperate to take your money over the Internet. Note they are not featured in any newspapers, they don't speak on mainstream radio. Because the advice they give is completely beyond the Pale.

It is DANGEROUS.

Lueji · 06/02/2012 16:05

Interestingly, I called the police when I told ex to leave after hurting me and he refused to leave the house.
To this day, I don't know why he allowed me to call the police, but he was already in a controlled mode and this was the second time he actually hurt me, not the 100th.
I can't see it working when the woman has already endured much worse.

As for the effect it had on him, I allowed him back in the house as it was late at night, I slept on the couch. His regret at what he did started disappearing as he crossed the threshold, over the next day, and finally evaporated on the 2nd day.
I was a bitch for calling the police, not empowered at all.

Wake up, OP.

Ladyjaxo · 06/02/2012 19:13

Hey OP, I am not going to slate you as it is clear you are going through some deep shit right now. It seems as if you are clinging on these extracts to justify staying in what is an abusive relationship. Maybe YOU are not in a place to leave yet. But please don't project your issues on others who have experienced dv. This website is bullshit and would lead to many more than the 104 women killed every year. Please get some rl support and some real counselling by someone accredited by BPAS. Men who hit know the difference between right and wrong. By age 3, we all do. There are no excuses or justifications, books, poems etc. Love shouldn't bruise you literally.Please get some help, you sound close to the edge. It is not your fault or place to manage anyone's behavior xx

Abitwobblynow · 06/02/2012 19:23

OK, if I have offended anyone I apologise.

You tell me how you got to be with a violent man, and how long it was before you left.

I would be interested to know.

OP posts:
Legobuildingpro · 06/02/2012 19:31

I don't think anyone with any sense is going to divulge like that wobbly. It will just be twisted used to backup your nutty and dangerous propaganda.

Onesunnymorningin2012 · 06/02/2012 19:44

OP, I'm with the bollocks and tripe brigade. I'm sorry to hear that you're having a hard time, and think you really need to get help in real life to deal with it. The people selling these books don't care about you, they care about making money.

blackoutthesun · 06/02/2012 19:45

sorry op but that is the biggest pile of shit i've read in a long time

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/02/2012 19:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ladyjaxo · 06/02/2012 19:53

TheOnce someone shows you their true colours you leave. Get somewhere safe and don't look back. You learn to love and respect yourself. Imagine OP if it was your daughter in that situation? I left after the 2nd time my ex hit me. I knew it was wrong and my parents had set a clear example to me that violence is not to be tolerated. Also I told people in rl so if there was ever even an iota of me going back to him they would keep me in check. Not that I even had that temptation. It was quite simple really: he hits me., he doesn't respect me therefore he doesn't love me let alone himself. I am worth so much more. I got all the begging texts and calls. Changed my number so no contact. I realised that he was nothing more than a weak bully and not even worthy of my presence.
PS I watched him get his comeuppance 1 night,, he was shouting at me and shoving me the high street. I ran away and this gentleman punched him. Knocked out cold., leg broken in 4 places.,metal rods. Karma eh.? Anyway Open you know what you need to do.

AnyFucker · 06/02/2012 19:59

OP, have you looked into the Freedom programme, love ?

MadAboutHotChoc · 06/02/2012 20:05

Abit - are you experiencing DV? Sad

AnyFucker · 06/02/2012 20:08

The freedom programme can educate you about physical, emotional, mental and financial abuse.

Being cheated on repeatedly means you are being emotionally and mentally abused. You don't have to tolerate it, and you don't have to forgive it. Not any of it.