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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families.

999 replies

singingprincess · 28/01/2012 13:25

There is a word document with all the relevant links which I will try and find, but in the meantime...Post away.

OP posts:
FunBagFreddie · 24/10/2012 13:50

Is this 'the' stately homes thread? Someone suggested that I might like to have a look at it.

Salbertina · 24/10/2012 14:03

Yes, welcome.

MouMouCow · 24/10/2012 15:30

I was also recommended to stop by and I'm glad the thread is live as I couldn't find it for the life of me.

I'm in a bit of a pickle...Both DP and I grew up with toxic mothers, however, his was by far the worst and since DS is born we've cut contact with all his family as he fell into an argument the only time MIL came to see DS (when he was 3 weeks old) and despite her son becoming her father MIL thought that attacking him on that day, belittling him, mocking him, refusing to accept his apology even though she provoqued the argument, then blaming me for their fall out was the right thing to do from a loving caring mother. She even refused to speak to him 6 months later when they met at DP's grandmother's funeral.
In All this, she is the victim, I've master-minded an argument without being physcially present and I'm trying to torpedo her family....She wrote letters that I have not had the stomach to finish reading, they were so vile and mean. SIL (the golden child) is not seeing DP nor DS because she can't stand the fact that I crushed her dream of a perfect family.
Yet, DP being the better person, has found a way to forgive MIL, FIL, SIL, when I struggle.
They all behave as if her behaviour is absolutely normal and as if she's the vitctim and DP and I the perpetrators. DP has concluded that if MIL found it hard to love him as a child it was probably his fault which I find shocking.
He does not excuse her behaviour but has reached a level where he explains that accepting her for who she is is the only sensible way to deal with this. He also points out that my hatred his damaging me more than it is her, he is right. I know this.
I'm now being accused of stopping DS to know the inlaws because of my hatred of them. I just don't know how to get over it. I've manage dot fogive my own mother for her torments over me but I find it really hard to fogive someone else's mother.
Any ideas how to resolve this?

MouMouCow · 24/10/2012 16:26

Anyone?

Salbertina · 24/10/2012 16:32

Gosh, a lot to cope with there. Sad
The books Toxic Parents and Children of the Self-absorbed v insightful.
Drama triangle/triangulation, scapegoat/golden child, gas-lighting all worth a google. Have a look at page 1 of this thread also. HTH

FunBagFreddie · 24/10/2012 17:01

I don't think you have to forgive her, but your DP is right, it is hurting you more than her. I think anyone would find it hard to forgive her and maybe you should cut yourself some slack, then you might start feeling better and can move on. Your reaction to her sounds totally normal to me.

That's just my opinion though.

Thanks for the welcome Salbertina.

MouMouCow · 25/10/2012 12:47

Thank you both!
Salbertina, thanks to MN I've learned a bit about NPD and it's key features and FOG so can rationalise all of their behaviour, it's the accepting part I struggle with (don't we all). Emotionally I can't swallow the pill. I can stop myself thinking about MIL by focusing on my beautiful DS but I'm starting to punish DP for his family's behaviour.
DP seems so forgiving when I'm stock feeling anger on his behalf. What doesn't help is that DP blames me partly for the NC situation when I don't understand how he could wish to inflict his parents on DS. He seems unable to truly protect himself from them or their lack of love and abuse.
Why make DS a pawn in their game?

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 25/10/2012 13:26

accepting her for who she is is the only sensible way to deal with this.

He is right about that, but it does not follow that he should therefore accept her damging behaviour in his life.

Another way to look at this would be to say: I accept that she is who she is and cannot change, and therefore I choose not to have such a person in my life.

Same premise. Maybe put like that it will help him understand your position, even if his remains the same.

TalkingintheDark · 25/10/2012 23:00

MouMou, as with all MIL related issues, I think the real problem here lies with your DP - as far as your relationship and your life and family are concerned, I mean. Clearly the problem in general originates with her!

The problem is that he is in massive, massive denial - it is nothing to do with him "being the better person" or truly forgiving them, and everything to do with him literally not being able to bear to face reality. He cannot acknowledge that his mother is a vile bitch, and has spent all his life scapegoating him. It is, after all, pretty hard (read, unbelievably hard) to acknowledge that your mother is a vile bitch who scapegoats you.

So he does what abused children always do: puts the blame on himself. "if MIL found it hard to love him as a child it was probably his fault" - you are dead right to find that totally shocking. It is. But it's also what normally happens after prolonged EA. It's what he did as a child to cope with it all, to survive it.

Some people grow up and start to challenge this stuff, and some don't. Some remain in that state of denial, of being emotionally a child for the whole of their lives. Some people spend their whole lives exonerating their abusive families, and taking the blame on themselves. Which is incredibly sad.

And it's also very destructive to healthy relationships. As you have said, he is blaming you for the NC situation - that's because he cannot face what blaming the real culprit would entail. That is not great news for your marriage, I'm afraid, IMO, and as you also say it's leading you to punish him. Unfortunately he is "unable to truly protect himself from them or their lack of love and abuse" as you say, and I suspect it goes so deep in him that he is also unable to protect you or your DS from them either.

By rights you and your DS should be his number one priority but I believe that when there is a background like this, his number one (unconscious) priority is staying part of his family unit, being one of them. He would probably deny that if asked, would probably not even realise it himself, but my guess is that that's the case.

All of which leaves you... I don't know where, sorry, I'm not great at the advice part! All I can say is that you are right in all your instincts, and he is the one trapped utterly in FOG, and you need to be aware of that, and handle your relationship accordingly. You are seeing things as they are; he, at the moment at any rate, is incapable of doing so and is repressing all his own anger and hurt. But he thinks he's being calm and reasonable and that you're the "difficult" one, and that could make communication very difficult.

I guess it depends on how strong your relationship is otherwise, how you proceed from here. And also maybe it would help for you to have some support around this and see if you can separate any of your own baggage from your own toxic mother from the stuff around your MIL, as I would guess it might be triggering you. It is horrible to be this angry and upset about stuff and to carry it with you while the real villains go scot free, but life sucks like that.

Anyway, hello to all and apologies for jumping on the thread with a diatribe like that and no introduction, hope it was at least helpful in some way. I've had quite a lot of experience of dealing with vile parents and scapegoating and so on myself, as you can maybe guess, so I thought I'd just throw my two penn'orth in in case it's any use.

submarinegirl · 25/10/2012 23:25

Hi all
I'm new here...so sorry if I'm barging in or interrupting anyone. Also - sorry - long....

Through some recent therapy, I have had the slow dawning that my mum, who is very intelligent for information retention etc but I always thought not very emotionally intelligent - is very likely to be a narcissist.

I can't remember her ever being cuddly or approachable, and I am pretty convinced she has subtley kept me in my place - as her child, as out of her limelight, and with no offer of any light shining on me.

I am mid 40s now, and have always had a frictional relationship - which I now see as being good when I fed her need for attention for herself, but problematic when I tried to assert myself.

It's very hard to describe because she has never been directly critical, or abusive, to me, (although she has a scary temper), but it's as if my life was 'edited', I think I have just been overlooked, never had any positive feedback about me, no real celebration of who I am, not just what she wanted me to be. It feels like a conditional love.She constantly criticises everything/everyone around her - as if she would do everything better if she only had the chance.

I am the only daughter, have 2 brothers, one is her clear favourite, ( I find his company difficult) the other does his own thing ( I am close to him) .

She seems to be treating my dad as the 'scapegoat' now - she belittles him, shouts and snaps at him, has made him a nervous wreck on a constant anxious high. He's 84, and since he retired nearly 20 yrs ago her behaviour towards him has got worse. It's always her side of the story is given, what her problems are, she seems to not see anyone else's point of view. This is partly why I now see her in a new light.

I always gave her credit as someone who was frustrated, never worked, maybe should have, maybe didn't have the right marriage etc...but I'm not so sure now.

Because there has never been any direct criticism, I don't know what I should do, how I should handle this. I want to stop her treating dad ( who is a great character, but a bit meek), and I want to gain some of the self respect and confidence in myself that I've never had.

Thank you for listening!

Anyone else have a 'mildly' toxic, but still very damaging, upbringing?

fresh · 26/10/2012 11:48

Talkinginthedark your post is brilliant. The explanation of the position of the person in denial is spot on. Trying to have a direct relationship with someone in that level of denial is hugely difficult, especially when you can see their denial but, well, they can't as it's too terrifying for them. The levels of self-deception involved are all-consuming and anyone who questions that lays themselves open to all sorts of crap. I have exactly this shitstorm coming my way and I know that holding my hard-won boundaries is going to be horrible. (see earlier post for background)

MouMouCow · 26/10/2012 13:18

Talkinginthedark, thank you! I'm hestitant to send your post to DP to read. He will probably hate every bit of it but that is exactly what I have tried to tell him for the past few months / year(s)....unsuccessfully.
I have to add that one of the reasons why I hate her so much is that when I first met the IL, MIL welcomed me with open arms and gave me a role as the second Golden Child. I was so fond of her and she was so terriffic that during my pregnancy I reproached my own DM not to be more like her. How bitterly I regretted those words when a few month(s) later, I was downgraded to scapegoat no 2 because I dared to critise her and most importantly I wasn't as docile as she thought. I have felt like such a fool.
I didn't measure the extent to which DP was unhappy and damaged and I was fooled by MIL simply because I craved so deperately to be liked and ravelled under the attention that she denied her own son. MIL and PIL are visiting my parents this weekend, how I'd like to be a fly on the wall... All my mum had to say about the situation was that it wasn't important to be right I should swallow my pride and apologise or better, just drive up to the IL one weekend and pop in to say hello. But then DM has never been able to empathise...

Submarinegirl, didn't want your post to go lost. I feel sorry for your poor dad. Why is he accepting this treatment and is he realising how it affects his health ? I'm not sure what ground you can cover with your mum as if one doens't have the ability to empathise with others, one is unlikely to change, especially in later life. Can you prehaps try to see your dad without her and have a good heart to heart discussion with him about what you have come to realise? Perhaps including the brother you like? United we have more chances to stand your ground.

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 26/10/2012 13:42

submarinegirl, you've described my family, and I'm pretty sure any of the posters here would recognise your story.

I wouldn't be so quick to let your dad off the hook: where was he all the times she was placing herself above her children? Lying low to keep the peace? That is not an admirable trait in a parent, is it. Not when he was the adult, and you were the children who needed validation and protecting.

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 26/10/2012 13:44

Your father sounds very similar to mine. Yes, he is a man of many qualities: loyalty, intelligence,... But as a father, he is weak and cowardly and badly let his children down.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/10/2012 14:08

Fabulous post TalkingintheDark.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/10/2012 14:14

Hi submarinegirl

NPD mothers have those effects you describe on the family unit but these women always but always need a willing weak enabler to help them. She found that person in your Dad and I would not let him off the hook either. He failed you as children by failing to protect you from his wife's outbursts.

Would not have described your family as mildly toxic at all; the words extremely dysfunctional seem far more apt. The damage within your emotionally unhealthy birth family unit is immense and widespread.

In my view it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist because they always make it about them.

I'd suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" and look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic mothers".

BTW what do you know about your mother's childhood?. That often gives clues.

submarinegirl · 26/10/2012 23:35

Hi everyone, and wow thanks for all the replies, especially as I didn't feel i could help previous posters and I just interrupted...

My dad has always been approachable, warm and generous. In my teens he disappeared into the background a bit and wasn't there as much as he was backing up mum then, but he has always sought me out since eg when I escaped moved in to a flat he made weekly lunch dates with me, and would drop in at my work (always been self employed) to see me.

Over the last 10 yrs or so our relationship has grown, and he comes to me once a week for lunch. We do discuss mum, skirted around it at 1st, but we're at a pretty honest level now, although he is ultimately loyal to her, won't overstep the mark, but I know he is suffering. He doesn't understand why every silly thing annoys her, and he 'walks away'. He and I are, I think/hope, good friends.

All I know about my mums childhood was that her mum was a good laugh, her dad was strict, but she was very close to him. She has a brother who also is totally self absorbed. They (ironically) say their mother described her dad's side of the family as thinking they had '2 yolks to the egg' ie one step above everyone else. We were brought up with that idea permeating around us.

There's a whiff of 'marrying beneath them' that has gone on for generations - inc mine (me).

My dad had no family, brought up by his gran. Married late in life, and my mum was a real beauty, I think a real catch for him - but he's not all 'weak', he had a healthy ego and 100s of friends, but he is very easy going, and I guess mum was a hard person to keep happy.....so he has been whittled down to a shadow of what he could be.

I've been on the 'daughters of....' site, but not heard of the other book - thanks for that tip Atilla. I had the book 'When you and your mother can't be friends' when it came out in ?1990, but I was at home at the time, I'm sure she saw it, didn't mention it outright but I know she was where it was....I was so hurt on her behalf I got rid of it.

I think that was also a good idea, MOUMOU, to get others involved.....my SIL (married to brother I don't like) also hates the way my mum treats dad. But that brother takes mums side, and has a laugh at dad's expense too - as well as showing him NO respect....

bit of a 'thinking out loud ' session there, - sorry, long! but helpful. Thanks again all :)

submarinegirl · 26/10/2012 23:40

ps I hate Stately Homes! We went to every bloody one wherever we were - my mum will in lighter moments joke that she likes them because she would've loved to have had that life.....

....is that why this is called a stately homes thread - were all these mums the same....fantasising about being waited on and being extra extra special??? Hmm

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 27/10/2012 08:44

It's called "...but we took you to Stately Homes!" because that is the kind of response any of us get if try to confront our parents about their less-than-adequate parenting.

(actually, that would be the mildest response: more likely it's anger, deflection, denial, and a martyr act)

Salbertina · 27/10/2012 09:02

Yes, i think title alludes to the middle-class veneer of respectability/effort our dparents may have shown as an excuse for poor parenting where it really matters- being able to mirror the child, not vice-versa, show empathy and unconditional love as well as supporting us to become adult individuals with a proper sense of self-worth.

Salbertina · 27/10/2012 09:04

It's actually a brilliant title. Who came up with it originally?

HotDAMNlifeisgood · 27/10/2012 09:16

I don't know - these threads have been running for years. It could be that a past Mumsnetter actually heard that gem from her own Ps...

It certainly is a brilliant title.

OwlBabies · 28/10/2012 19:10

I wish I'd found you all years ago! I've just posted in 'relationships' about my wish to cut all contact with my parents - and admitted that, actually, I think I hate them. I wish, though, that I could just forget about them rather than endlessly replaying past conversations, incidents, etc. Because they're never going to change. And they'd never accept that they'd been anything other than exemplary parents.

I feel really rubbish that at the age of 40 I'm more fucked up about my parents than ever. I just want to get OVER them!

ThistlePetal · 28/10/2012 19:30

Hi all, just marking my place and will no doubt post more some time soon.

Have just separated from my H of 12 years and my mother is being her usual unsupportive self, desperate to blame me and make me feel even worse than I already do. Seems she's terrified that my in-laws will get to see more of our DCs than she will. And the way she is acting right now, she could well be right. Don't think she gives a stuff about what I'm going through.

And I'm cross with myself for being disappointed, and for hoping that she'd come through for me this time. I should have known better. I'm 40, and can't live by her diktats any longer.

Salbertina · 28/10/2012 19:38

Oh TP, really sorry. Was in similar position and my dm similarly- appallingly - failed to provide any support or even acknowledge what had happened Angry she also sided with dh, unbelievably disloyal yet neither parent nor dsis think this is odd/v wrong! Usual dysfunctional dance and scapegoating ...
Thank Goodness for good friends, a real lifeline. Who do you have to turn to instead???

OB, good to see you on here. Hope it provides some solace.