I really want to talk about my relationship without being told I'm a bitch

[KnockDiddyKnockKnock]

Am I a bitch for wanting to be happy? And if being happy means DS doesn't get to spend so much time with his dad because his dad has to move out, does that make me even more of a bitch?

I have been unhappy for a long time. In retrospect DP and I were never really suited, but I got pregnant so we stayed together. We've been together for 15 years now and although I love him as a person (he is an extremely nice man most of the time) I have no sexual feelings towards him. We still have sex and it's mutually enjoyable but I feel soiled afterwards. As if I've had sex with my brother or something .

I have a few friends and I have tried to confide in them about wanting to be single again. They look at me as if I've grown another head! In fairness to one of them, her husband is a prick who makes her the butt of his jokes and compares her to other women to make her feel inadequate. I understand why she thinks I'm insane to give up on a relationship where I am respected and treated kindly. My own mother thinks the sun shines out of DP's arse and won't have anything said against him. I'm not even allowed to complain about his snoring; I have to be reminded that I'm lucky to have him.

I have told DP how I feel but he says he still loves me. I don't know whether he does or not. I was his first girlfriend and I've always felt that he was insecure about meeting other women so settled for me. I think someone else could make him very happy but he is adamant that he wants to stay here. I have lost respect for him for not having enough pride to leave [bitch].

When I think about being single again I feel excited, but then really frightened. I'll be a single parent; I'll have to go back to work and DS will have to return to school (he is home-educated due to being bullied); I'll be skint; I'll have no support etc. I've tried to discuss a separation with DP and he insists that he will not move out unless forced, will not give me any money unless forced, and will insist on seeing DS every day. He thinks this is fair because it's me wanting to separate. It's not fair, is it? It just seems easier to continue and be miserable if that's the way it's going to be.

Another issue is that I want another baby but DP can't have any more children due to medication he is taking. I'm 35 so I don't have much time left [bitch].

Does anyone feel similarly? I'm not really looking for solutions; I know how to go about becoming single. I just want to mull things over without being told I'm a callous bitch.

I think it's actually very important to teach DC that couple-relationships are not compulsory, not even for parenthood. Unless you live in some horrendous conformist nuclear-family Our Town type area (in which case there will undoubtedly be some major domestic violence going on behind closed doors), your DC are going to encounter single parent families, gay parent families, examples of toxic relationships and hopefully also separated-but-amicable co-parents.

Well when you post a thread looking for input, you need to anticipate that not all the input is going to be exactly what you wanted to hear. You are welcome to pick and choose whatever you wish from responses to your posts of course, but telling people their views are not welcome is ridiculous on a public forum. And telling someone they are not qualified to reply to you (which you call picking you apart or assassination because it doesn't agree with your view) is ludicrous in the extreme. It is a public forum and nobody forced you to post here. I don't think you are a bitch to want to be happy, fwiw. But I think you read too much into other people's words and are too quick to jump to conclusions.

And I think the more you post the more questions arise. A big one has just reared its head: whether the DS's welfare might mean you would stay instead of going. Next post -- yes, going is healthier. Had thoughts of his welfare not occurred before? It seems that there has not been much thought given to this except for the question of returning to school (which will at the same time be his choice and unavoidable, apparently). The whole thing smacks of desperate unhappiness but little by way of planning, and too much hurt arising from what others have said about the situation both in RL and here. Too much to take on board sensible advice perhaps.

'Well, yes, I hope the grass is greener. Isn't that why people make changes in their life? Is there any reason why it wouldn't be greener?' There is an abrasive tone there in the rhetorical question -- a question that Alsteff has already answered, and answered very thoughtfully. But sadly I don't think you are interested in thoughtfulness.

Chitchat, she is not forced to repeat herself. She is being prompted to think things through by many thoughtful posters who have nearly all said good luck, go ahead, yes if you are sure then do it. But through it all she manages to focus on the things she disagrees with and blast back, even from posts she basically agrees with.

I know how internet forums work, save the spiel please.

I didn't say you weren't welcome/qualified to answer my posts; you know I didn't.

I pointed out that your advice was not so overwhelmingly useful/special that it compensated for your rudeness. I would prefer you to be candid and just say what is bothering you about how I've divulged information. Why does it matter to you that I didn't pre-emptively answer your questions in my OP? Why are you determined to see inconsistencies in my posts when my OP said that I wanted to mull things over? Why do you keep on about how I haven't got a plan when earlier on you were saying that I seemed to have it all sorted (tenancy, legal rights etc) but had to slow down for DP to get on board? How much more information is one allowed to share in subsequent posts and where are the guidelines on this? I've had enough of the sneering and fault finding now.

You're not warden of the relationships board, so you are overstepping the mark dictating how I should post. It's up to me to decide how much detail I go into in my OP and when and how I give more information, nobody else. That's not drip feeding, it's how conversations develop, and how I communicate.

Of course the more I post the more questions arise. How can I answer the questions without divulging more information or drip feeding as you call it?

I'm not posting anymore about my family on this thread because it has become the opposite of helpful. Can you please stop misrepresenting my concern for my DS's welfare now? It is snide!

And yes, I do like it when posters are thoughtful. Please don't try to align yourself with less forthright posters and try to to make it look like I have an issue with them as well. It's your posts that have pissed me off, not alsteffs or awomenscorned, but yours and a few others to a much lesser degree. And stop presuming to know how I feel about things or what I like or want. You know nothing more about me than I've chose to reveal. Anything else is just you making shit up!

If alsteff, awomenscorned or anyone else thinks I've 'blasted back' at them, then they are welcome to address that with me. Do your sucking up by PM next time if you don't want it to be so transparent.

I've not lived up to your standards of communication and that's fine because you fall way short of mine!

Thanks to everyone else that has contributed.

Oh dear OP, narky.

Have you read the thread yet or can you still not be arsed?

I think that you should leave the relationship. However, initially the DP was a lovely man, and then it's drip fed that perhaps he isn't quite as nice. He sounds like a decent enough bloke and so what I don't understand is why he doesn't want his DS full time? It just doesn't fit with everything else that you have said about your DP. I don't think your DP has been cruel, moreso he actually loves you and is confused and upset by your reactions and is trying to make you stay. Foolish yes, but not horrid or abusive.

Also at ten, your DS is likely to have his own opinions about who he wants to live with, and that should be the most important factor. Once that is established housing can be arranged around this.

FWiW I do think you sound very low and have self esteem issues. I hope you are able to seek help for this. But I think if you are the one that so desparately wants to leave a none abusive relationship then yes, it should be you who is the most accommodating person, because your DP and DS will be upset and ultimately your DP doesn't want to split. I don't mean to sound harsh but your actions have consequences and whilst I'm not advocating you stay, you are the reason for the separation of the family and you should be more sympathetic for everyone else's feelings because of the situation.

i think you are brave posting on here, particularly when it's not a clear cut issue, or (sadly) the too usual problem (ie "I think my husband is having an affair").

Nor do I think you are a bitch - what would a true bitch do? Stay in the relationship and look elsewhere for an "escape" (via another bloke) at the same time? Join dating sites? Actively seek another partner?

But i do think (between the rows!) you have had some insightful advice, really everyone seems to be saying - think it all through more, look at it from different angles, be realistic & honest with yourself, your feelings and your family's, get a plan, get some objective advice. Don't be naive, or blinkered.
And if you take something from this whole posting experience, take that advice on board.

Nope still can't be arsed, especially now as you seem right about yourself.

You should have seen the first draft

Reindeer and alsteff, thanks for your posts. I will reflect on what's been posted and the advice I've been given.

Well here I go again, but there are many, many questions about your DS, and Alsteff has articulated them; they boil down to the idea that your DS will be responsible for holding you and the P together, or deciding not to get in your way by obliging and returning to school. Ultimately, to be fair to him since he is still a child, you will have to make a decision on his behalf and then live with it , without seeking his input and without him knowing the factors that went into your decision. You are worried about the impact of your desire to end the relationship -- you think your nearest and dearest think you are a bitch for doing so. There is more to it than just the PR aspect for you. I am not being snide here. Your DS is an important element in all of this.

There is also the question of why you would risk tying yourself to another man via another baby when doing this the first time turned out badly for all concerned. I think you should find a counsellor to work through the whole business just from your own pov and not in the context of improving or leaving the relationship -- a life assessment exercise where your own part in getting you to where you are now could be examined.

If you are still convinced that striking out on your own would be the best option then I strongly recommend a mediator to work with your P and you to make the arrangements, maybe see if everything can be accomplished sooner. Six months extra when you are already stressed out by your circumstances and when your P is not really inclined to co-operate without making you feel so guilty, and with your friends and mum all giving you the evil eye would be a long six months.

OP, it looks like you came here looking for the validation your friend and your mother didn't give you. Then you could go ahead with the separation that is meant to solve all your problems magically.

But then people started making uncomfortable questions and you became defensive. It seems you still only want the green light to go ahead with your initial plan (that doesn't involve any questioning). It looks like no one is giving you that green light, and you're angry with that.

Too bad for you. I've posted before on this forum (I've namechanged quite a bit) and taking on board some uncomfortable advice I received here has helped me grow up. People are giving away their time to try to help you (and you DS, who needs it more than you) and you are ignoring it. I decided to talk about my parents marriage, which is very personal for me, and you ignored it. Your loss, really.

Julia, you posted when the thread got heated. I had already said that I wanted to leave it by then and the atmosphere here didn't make me feel like it would benefit me to go back on that. I'm sorry if I've upset you, but fwiw I did appreciate your post and I did want to ask you you to elaborate on how your parents marriage has affected your interactions with your DP. I didn't dismiss your post, and I should have replied to you.

This thread hasn't been that nice for me you know. Some of the comments have been uncalled for and I've only been shirty with people when I think their posting style conveys that they are robust enough to take it. It's not really fair for you to say that I'm getting angry because no-one is giving me the green light. I came here to talk about my feelings, not ask for permission.

Math, our interactions aren't productive so I'll not answer your last post. Feel free to continue if you're enjoying yourself though, and I'll continue to ignore you.

FFS, if someone wants to leave, LEAVE FFS. You don't have to stay with anyone!

If OP wants validation to do something else, that's FINE. Even if the guy is perfect, if she wants to leave she can.

Knock, what YOU want in life is what you need to do. You can make it work, whatever you choose to do.

I wish you all the very best of luck and happiness, whatever you decide.

Thanks Houdini

Exactly Houdini. If she wants to separate then of course she can. She says herrself that she didn't post looking for permission.

At this point I have ceased to understand why this thread was posted in the first place. She wants to separate. She knows what she can do, legally, to separate. Emotionally, she has gone far in the process of disengagement from the P.

All well and good.

So why bring up all the mulling and the feelings and then shoot down posters who responded to them, pointing out potential issues and pitfalls in the 'grass is greener' theory, suggesting why the P is being so obtuse, and suggesting counselling to get to the bottom of the feelings? Posting on a forum is not the same as talking to yourself in a room with an echo.

Oh give it a rest Math. I have responded negatively to comments such as "I also have the feeling that, after she has found another sperm donor partner ...". Don't try and interpret that as "pointing out potential issues and pitfalls in the 'grass is greener' theory". It was designed to inflame, purely.

I've already told you that I have had counselling. It was good but not so good that I want to do it again right now.

No, posting on a forum is not the same as talking to yourself in a room with an echo. It is comments like this that have got on my tits from the beginning.

Unlike you I don't feel the need to align myself with other posters who have also felt some of the responses were out of line. Why do you need to do that? Why do you need validation for your opinions of me?

And can you stop pissing over any supportive posts I get please.

That was one post. Of course it wasn't in the same category as sensible pointing out of pitfalls. I don't know why you keep on lumping all the sensible suggestions in with the inflammatory ones. Focusing on the very obviously negative like that, black and white thinking, and seeing persecution where there is genuinely none intended are guarantors of unhappiness.

I have done no pissing on supportive posts, either, since I have also said your P is a lump (after you gave some details) and if you are unhappy with him then separation is of course warranted. Look back and check. A suggestion that you should give counselling another try (I know you went before) and that you should not be counting on the greener grass theory is not pissing on supportive posts or a reprimand. Nor is bringing up the question of your DS and what is best for him.

No, Izzy's post isn't indicative of most of the posts on here. It was the worst one and it was deeply offensive. I brought it up because it was early in the thread and it (amongst others) has set the tone IMO.

You've been very critical of my style of posting at the same time as giving good advice. Up until last night I thanked you for that, (I thanked everybody who hadn't posted purely to inflame), but really, can you not see why I've grown a bit tired of it now?

When I tried to address you directly (and not rudely) about the tone of your posts you did become sneery. You've answered none of my questions, instead choosing to tell me I have a communication style that is unproductive. How is that helpful or thoughtful? Yes, I keep repeating it because it has affected the way I respond to you now, and that's not going to get better on this thread while you continue to feign innocence.

You have pissed over supportive posts. You keep doing it. You keep attempting to convince people that I don't deserve any support because I haven't been grateful enough for what you and a few others have given.

Why don't you re-read the thread? Then maybe you will stop telling new posters that I only engage with the posts I don't like. It isn't true so please stop it. I have already told you that I'm not going to discuss my family here any further. I'm only here now because you keep coming back and misrepresenting me.

Could you try to have a little humility here. My DP is not here on this thread and neither is my DS. I have had very little in the way of opportunities to process my thoughts so no, my ideas were not fully formed in my OP. Pointing out that DS will ultimately be responsible for my unhappiness is a particularly odd way of interacting unless you're trying to bring out the worst in a person. I have explained the circumstances with DS upthread already and I would have continued to elaborate if you weren't always here, with your patronising, condescending sneering.

Where have I objected to anyone raising the issue of DS?

What you do is get another place to live and move to it on your own, tell him you are giving up the tenancy and he has to find somewhere else to live.

Simple really.

Forgive my interruption, but isn't this thread becoming a bit derailed? It's clear there's been rubbing up the wrong way and insensitivity but the title of the thread makes it clear OP wants a space to be able to say the unsayable and some support. Equally though, that doesn't mean she can expect to be immune from criticism.

I think the trap of 'relationship ambivalence' is one of the most pernicious there is. I'm suffering from it a bit myself. When one doesn't commit fully to the relationship you're in (for good reason sometimes) it feels like you have all the drudgery and restriction of a relationship with none of the benefits. And yet the idea of leaving can seem insurmountable and frankly, with everything taken into account, just a different set of problems to deal with.

Mira Kirschenbaum writes very well about it in 'Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay'. I'd also direct OP to Diary of a Separation in the Guardian for a chilly but real account of someone who has left though there was no dreadful awful problem. She really draws attention to how 'the single life' is often just the life you were living before, but without a partner.

The biggest question to ask is if all your problems - as you see them - in the relationship could be solved, over time, would you still be ambivalent about whether to leave or whether to stay with this person? If you still aren't sure, then something deep inside says you are not happy, nor ever will be.

are you for real Fabby? We should all move and lose the security of our home? All of us? For what, sacrificial purposes?

Erm...so you can separate, which is what you said you wanted, so you can move on with your life without having to wait for him to agree/do what he said he will do, and so you can start getting back some self-respect for doing something about this awful marriage.

I'm guessing.

I'm sorry you're going through this, OP. It sounds very much like your relationship has been over for quite some time. I do think that Mathanxiety has made some very good points - perhaps you should reread her posts as advice rather than criticisms.
Another thing that jumped out at me - but this is really your partner's issue, not yours- is that Prozac DOES have a pretty strong record of negative side effects. If he is willing to seek help - and it sounds like he needs it - he should look at a group of drugs called SSRIs.

Thanks Vander. Well, the prospect of never being happy is a depressing one.

But, yes, I think if DP made a bit more effort we could work things out and be reasonably happy. Not ecstatic but content, and that's a compromise I'd be willing to make. We never had that potty, head-over-heels stage and I do wish I'd had that with someone at some stage. Being best friends, having security, someone to share things with are good things. Not to be sniffed at.

It's funny actually. Before Christmas I had a blazing row with a neighbour. She's an odd-bod so don't take this as evidence of anything untoward, but she accused my DP of intimidating her. I knocked on her door and we argued (fiercely) and then I went indoors and cried. It hurts me when anyone is unkind to DP. In the same way as it does when anyone is mean to DS. I know their faults, but God forbid anyone else would presume to comment.

And if I tell him I am upset he gets really defensive on my behalf.

Then again, there's this couple we are friendly with. The wife is always very nice to DP. She blatantly prefers him to me and I think she has a little soft spot for him, and I think the feeling is mutual. It pleases me Her husband is a bit pervy and talks to my tits and DP teases me about it. These things make me feel like a bit of a pervert. As if our relationship is one big farce and everybody else is having fantastic sex while we just 'do it' to scratch an itch and are probably thinking about other people during.

Ugh.