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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How to fix it all

75 replies

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 21:50

Where to start. I don't know what to do about the arguments between DH & I any more. There is nothing horrific as with some of the awful stories you read on this board; no abuse or affairs or anything like that, but I am heartily sick and tired of the way he speaks to me sometimes. He is brusque, flippant, and often downright rude. When I bring it up, in as considered and thoughtful a manner as I can, it ends up in an argument despite my best efforts, and we don't talk for 2 or 3 days sometimes. I feel that he has issues with anger and takes it out on me and sometimes the DC, in over-the-top reactions.

I'm well aware that this is "small fry" for this board but am hoping someone might have some words of wisdom ...? The problem is that a lot of his attitude/tone of voice is just so subtle. It's hard to pin down, and it mostly happens during the day when we're with the DC or other people, so I can't exactly pull him up on it then. Then by the evening, when we're alone, it's hard to remember/describe exactly what it was about his manner hours and hours earlier that annoyed me. I feel as if the only way to get across to him how he is, would be to film him and show him later!

He has this compulsion to attribute blame to someone - frequently me as I'm usually nearby - when there quite often really isn't anyone to blame, or when to blame someone is counterproductive and he should just be focusing on fixing the situation. E.g. when DD chipped her tooth at the funfair recently, the first thing he said when he brought her to me was "THEY'VE broken her tooth!" - i.e. by implication he meant the owners/operators of the fair. Is this not a bit odd? Would most people not simply say "She's broken her tooth", realising that there was not much that could be done about it; she herself had desperately wanted to go on, and although he and I felt awful about it, it really wasn't anyone's FAULT!

He didn't have the best childhood - parents had many many screaming-abuse-type arguments which he had to listen to - there was no attempt made to protect him from hearing stuff - and they're now divorced. We regrettably felt we had to cut his father out of our lives about two years ago, and he has numerous longstanding problems/conflicts with his mother, who can be a tricky person to deal with, but is a good grandmother to our DC. I feel a lot of his anger must inevitably stem from all this. But he refuses to give counselling a try - even online, which I tried once and found helpful.

He says that he's become a lot less angry/more tolerant and peaceful since he's been with me (14 years) which is probably true I suppose, but I feel he's kind of got a ways to go! I, on the other hand, am not happy with the way I've changed since I've been with him - before I met him I never lost my temper, was rarely irritable, but now I have these horrible attributes coming out at times, and although I take full responsibility for my own behaviour, it's hard not to retaliate with like for like, when he's talking back to me or whatever. I can't just stay quiet and brush all these things under the carpet to keep the peace - I think "why the hell should I? Why should he get away with talking to me like that?" but every time I bring something up it causes an argument. I feel like we're like two children in a school playground sometimes.

For his part, he feels that I'm always "attacking" him, and "pointing out his inadequacies"; things like that. I just see it as bringing up things that bother me, and I honestly don't think I do "have a go at him" - from long experience, I really try and choose my words carefully, but things still seem to implode when I bring anything up.

Sorry for the monumental length ...

OP posts:
loosyloo · 08/01/2012 21:59

how about counselling to help you talk to each other in a more constructive way, in a way that doesnt always end in arguments and shouting etc

Flanelle · 08/01/2012 22:00

Sounds like he's living in the past. He would do i suppose if he won't go back there and lay some shit to rest. You can't make him of course, but would he maybe consider relate for the two of you, or something like it, if you're the one saying she needs it kind of thing?

Or you could try changing how you are yourself. Definitely sounds familiar to me - creating stability for a troubled partner, who leans on you for calmness but provides no reciprocal support. Very tiring. I know. Counselling for you, or helpful books? NVC - non-violent communication - is a great book, realy simple intutive advice for getting in touch with your own precise needs and getting them met without creating defensiveness in the other. Have a look?

Hidinginthewoods · 08/01/2012 22:00

He sounds a little stressed IMO

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 22:06

I really want us to have counselling, loosy, but he says he's ruled it out. I really think it would help as we are not that bad ...flanelle, I will definitely have a look at that book, thanks. The one session of online counselling I did, the counseller said something very similar about creating stability for a troubled partner, but how that really wasn't a good basis for an adult relationship Sad

Hiding, he is stressed at times, definitely - he feels the financial pressure of having to support us all (am SAHM) in times when jobs are not secure. I am really sympathetic, and grateful for all he does - I just don't think it gives him the right to speak to me however he wants ...

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Flanelle · 08/01/2012 22:08

You're spot on there!

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 22:11

He's ruled out books as well, btw - however helpful I might find them ... same went for any kind of parenting books when the DC were younger. Not that he's not a reader though - he gets through 2 or 3 books a week! Sad

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Flanelle · 08/01/2012 22:35

You can do NVC all by your self. Works everywhere.

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 22:40

Oh, I will, thanks, flanelle, I just meant that it grates with me that he refuses ever to pick up a book like this - thinks they're beneath him and that any solution should just come from within himself ... well, it's not bloody working, is it?! He says he knows what he has to do, and says he'll try harder ... so it's galling to still be having the same arguments years and years down the line. We need external input from somewhere, I'm quite sure. It's just getting him on board that's the problem. Sad

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HoudiniHissy · 08/01/2012 22:47

You sound as if you are walking on eggshells, while he is tramping around in hobnail boots.

You have every right to expect that he talks to you in a civil manner. If he refuses to do so, refuses counselling, refuses in any way to think about his manners with you then TBH, you need to have a much bigger conversation.

Many of the aspects of your OP are bordering on behaviours you would find in an abusive relationship.

Ultimately you have to decide if you want to be treated like this for the rest of your natural life, cos this guy is not going to change by the looks of it.

I think I would recommend YOU read Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.

Otherwise the external input you need is from a Divorce Lawyer. He needs to understand that you are THAT serious.

PreferredPlanet · 09/01/2012 08:30

Thanks, Houdini, I'll have a look at that book. I've seen it recommended on here many times before - am somewhat Sad that this time it's been recommended to ME...

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TheCrunchUnderfoot · 09/01/2012 08:54

So so much to say - but in a nutshell - if he wants to keep you in his life, and not drive you away, he needs counselling.

That's it. Counselling, or divorce, really. That's what it'll come to.

I'd be putting my energies into making him see that before it's too late for even counselling to do any good.

'Ruling out' counselling? Really? No, he can say that all he likes, but it won't make it the case that he controls the situation and can decree how things will be. Fantasy land. Make him see that.

HoudiniHissy · 09/01/2012 09:18

I'm not saying he's abusive per se, but there are elements of his behaviour that point toward an entitlement to treat yoiu like this. It's not right.

Usually, if someone tells you that something you're doing hurts or upsets them, they don't 'try' to stop, they stop there and then. 'Trying' to stop is just lip service designed to get you to stop calling them out on their behaviour.

This guy IS being routinely verbally insulting and dismissive of you. I've also got the Verbally Abusive Relationship in my bedside cabinet, not read it (yet) but it might be worth a look. See in you can take half an hour out and go to the library or a big bookshop and have a leaf through. If anything resonates with you, then read them and see how you get on.

Remember we're always here if you're needing to bounce anything off us. I'll be the first to hope that I'm totally wrong, and I hope that if you can pull your DH up and fix this, it'd be the best thing ever.

All the best! (((Hugs)))

struwelpeter · 09/01/2012 09:55

Be very careful about thinking of changing just your behaviour to cope with him. The problem is the relationship between you so you both need to work on adjusting. Counsellor is right you are not in this to make up for his difficult past. I see myself two years ago and it was an abusive relationship. Read some of the books etc on ea and maybe have some more individual counselling. Good luck.

PreferredPlanet · 09/01/2012 09:59

Thank you so much, Crunch and Houdini. You're helping me to trust my instincts and I'm in the middle of writing him a big long email - face to face just wouldn't work as I want to make sure I say absolutely everything I want to say.

I'm not the melodramatic flouncing type, have never in 14 years given him an ultimatum, and have been hoping desperately that he'd come round to the idea of counselling himself, but unless he does soon, ultimatum it'll have to be - counselling or split Sad.

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PreferredPlanet · 09/01/2012 10:02

x-posts - thanks struwelpeter too. Yes, I don't think I should change just to suit him, or avoid conflict - I brushed many things under the carpet in the past just to keep the peace - but it sounds like those books will be helpful in other ways too.

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loosyloo · 09/01/2012 11:03

i would go to counselling by myself if he wouldnt come to

can help you see things more clearly and also give you tools to tackle situations more constructively so that its not all "YOU DID THIS" "YOU NEVER DO THAT" etc

PreferredPlanet · 09/01/2012 13:10

Thanks, loosy. Actually going to counselling is difficult as I have DC all the time - the one time I tried before it was online. As I said, it was helpful but after one reply from the counsellor, I didn't really know what to say or do next, so haven't replied to her.

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ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 09/01/2012 13:23

Oh, your experience sounds so familiar to me...

People who feel the need to pin "blame" on anyone or anything, and who constantly feel "attacked", have such screwed-up egos that they really can't understand that other people have feelings, and they can't accept their own responsibility in hurting those people's feelings.

IME, your husband is unlikely to change. And if his behaviour is damaging to you, then you are entitled to change the only thing that you have any control over: your continued presence in this marriage.

Solo counselling for yourself to untangle how you feel about yourself and your marriage is a very good idea. I hope you will find a way to make it happen.

singingprincess · 09/01/2012 14:16

Sorry, but he sounds like a classic abuser to me. He has the same attitudes to the world, as your common or garden variety abuser.

Blame shifting, a sense of some kind of victim status, general low grade paranoia, that ever present sense of entitlement.

It's caused by a fundamental fear of the world and of abandonment, that as a man, he is not allowed to acknowledge. That fear comes out as anger and a need to CONTROL.

He does, (they all do) perceive you as attacking him, even though you are not, as indeed the people at the fair are not.

You are not his mother, nor his therapist. He needs help, but that would involve him accepting that it might just be him, and not the rest of the world that has a problem.

The only thing you can do is work out why YOU are tolerating it. And if you REALLY want this dynamic passing down to yet another generation.

Sorry if that is harsh...best of luck.

PreferredPlanet · 09/01/2012 15:57

People who feel the need to pin "blame" on anyone or anything, and who constantly feel "attacked", have such screwed-up egos that they really can't understand that other people have feelings, and they can't accept their own responsibility in hurting those people's feelings.

That really resonates with me Puppy Sad

Princess, woah! do you really think that? That's kinda scarey tbh, I never thought he was as bad as that ...but I do have to work hard to avoid the kids picking up on tension, aggression etc. It's so tiring - why should I have to be the one to do all the work?

You've all given me loads to think about - thank you so much.

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singingprincess · 09/01/2012 17:19

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003U4UXU0

I am just finishing this book...it is aimed at abusive men, I am reading it to try and salvage my DS's hopes of having normal relationships when he is older. I think I have read virtually every book there is on this subject in an effort to understand why my abusive husband has been intent on destroying the one thing he wants most in the world....his marriage and his family. We are now separated. Obviously this is entirely MY fault and nothing whatever to do with him....and he really believes that....they all do! Hmm

There is a list of materials at the top of this page, and at the top of the suport for those in emotionally abusive relationships thread.

Knowledge is power.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 08:22

Princess used the a-word that I (and prob others on this thread) were skirting around.

But yes: everything you describe sounds like a classic abuser.

Do read the links on this thread if you feel ready.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 08:26

Oh, and since the description of blaming seemed to resonate with you, you might find this link helpful too.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 08:28

And regarding your thread title: you can't fix him. You can't fix your relationship (alone). All you can do is change your own actions and reactions - starting with your own desire to fix things for other people, perhaps.

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 15:30

Thanks. I've now read those. Bloody hell. Sad

I can't send those links to him though - think it would be counterproductive to suddenly accuse him of being abn abuser. Bloody, bloody hell. WWYD??

On a more positive note, he agreed to counselling last night, after I sent him this enormous long email, which he described as "harsh". BIG step forward! But he totally dismissed online counselling (contemptuously lumping it together with online dating and online legal advice!), which really presents a prob - we just don't have anyone to look after 4 young DC once a week for 2 hours (am including the travelling time here). Will have to have a think. He doesn't see the point in just going himself, either - I've got to be there too.

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