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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How to fix it all

75 replies

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 21:50

Where to start. I don't know what to do about the arguments between DH & I any more. There is nothing horrific as with some of the awful stories you read on this board; no abuse or affairs or anything like that, but I am heartily sick and tired of the way he speaks to me sometimes. He is brusque, flippant, and often downright rude. When I bring it up, in as considered and thoughtful a manner as I can, it ends up in an argument despite my best efforts, and we don't talk for 2 or 3 days sometimes. I feel that he has issues with anger and takes it out on me and sometimes the DC, in over-the-top reactions.

I'm well aware that this is "small fry" for this board but am hoping someone might have some words of wisdom ...? The problem is that a lot of his attitude/tone of voice is just so subtle. It's hard to pin down, and it mostly happens during the day when we're with the DC or other people, so I can't exactly pull him up on it then. Then by the evening, when we're alone, it's hard to remember/describe exactly what it was about his manner hours and hours earlier that annoyed me. I feel as if the only way to get across to him how he is, would be to film him and show him later!

He has this compulsion to attribute blame to someone - frequently me as I'm usually nearby - when there quite often really isn't anyone to blame, or when to blame someone is counterproductive and he should just be focusing on fixing the situation. E.g. when DD chipped her tooth at the funfair recently, the first thing he said when he brought her to me was "THEY'VE broken her tooth!" - i.e. by implication he meant the owners/operators of the fair. Is this not a bit odd? Would most people not simply say "She's broken her tooth", realising that there was not much that could be done about it; she herself had desperately wanted to go on, and although he and I felt awful about it, it really wasn't anyone's FAULT!

He didn't have the best childhood - parents had many many screaming-abuse-type arguments which he had to listen to - there was no attempt made to protect him from hearing stuff - and they're now divorced. We regrettably felt we had to cut his father out of our lives about two years ago, and he has numerous longstanding problems/conflicts with his mother, who can be a tricky person to deal with, but is a good grandmother to our DC. I feel a lot of his anger must inevitably stem from all this. But he refuses to give counselling a try - even online, which I tried once and found helpful.

He says that he's become a lot less angry/more tolerant and peaceful since he's been with me (14 years) which is probably true I suppose, but I feel he's kind of got a ways to go! I, on the other hand, am not happy with the way I've changed since I've been with him - before I met him I never lost my temper, was rarely irritable, but now I have these horrible attributes coming out at times, and although I take full responsibility for my own behaviour, it's hard not to retaliate with like for like, when he's talking back to me or whatever. I can't just stay quiet and brush all these things under the carpet to keep the peace - I think "why the hell should I? Why should he get away with talking to me like that?" but every time I bring something up it causes an argument. I feel like we're like two children in a school playground sometimes.

For his part, he feels that I'm always "attacking" him, and "pointing out his inadequacies"; things like that. I just see it as bringing up things that bother me, and I honestly don't think I do "have a go at him" - from long experience, I really try and choose my words carefully, but things still seem to implode when I bring anything up.

Sorry for the monumental length ...

OP posts:
Flanelle · 10/01/2012 18:19

singingprincess that is a tradgedy Sad
And I totally get it.

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 19:15

singingprincess my heart goes out to you. Was there physical abuse in his childhood, or just verbal/mental?

Does anyone have any good ideas for how I might persuade DH that solo counselling would be a better idea for him - at least at first? It would be sooo much easier, logistically (though I know that's hardly the primary consideration here!)

OP posts:
singingprincess · 10/01/2012 20:11

There was every kind of abuse...again, the more you learn about the damage caused by things like emotional incest, the more horrifying and tragic it all becomes.

He was sexually abused too. I only found all this out after eight years together. He had kept it all a secret. It answered a million and one questions.

I think separate counselling is the only way forward, but if a few joint sessions gets you to that conclusion....well who knows?

At least you know that your H had a bad childhood...that may be his starting point....what was your childhood like?

inatrance · 10/01/2012 20:56

I agree with the others who say his behaviour is abusive. Unfortunately you cannot change him and the only options are to stay and keep walking on eggshells and have the life sucked out of you or gather your strength and say ENOUGH!

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 22:41

Yes, DH didn't have the best childhood, princess, but nothing on the scale of your H's Sad. Mine was happy, calm and peaceful - the only thing that marred it was my DM's chronic depression which caused her to just not be around a lot of the time. But I do realise, having read this board for ages (but really not planning ever to post until recently!) that I'm very lucky in that respect. All this abuse stuff is highly new to me. Sad

It's just the last year or so that things have been worse, and bloody unbelievable on the argument front over the past couple of weeks, in terms if frequency. Prompting me to post. And I'm soooo glad I did - I can definitely see a way forward now, thanks to you all.

In the scheme of things, I know our problems are not that bad, and I do love him, but this all has to be sorted out. I don't want our family to break up.

I'm so determined to avoid another argument until one or both of us gets counselling that I had to bite my tongue twice tonight when he said things to the DC. They're pretty trivial, taken individually, I know - one was that he started reading a local newspaper article out loud to DS1 (6) about a woman who'd been attacked very close to our house. There was just no need, you know?! Why even risk starting him thinking about "bad people" SO close to home (we're talking a couple of hundred metres) - possible nightmares etc. IMO what you DON'T say to children is just as important as what you do say, but DH just doesn't think sometimes. The other one was that DS1 has a birthday party coming up with lunch at McDonalds. DS1 has eaten McDonalds precisely once in his life. Probably the highlight of his last year of life! Wink. But DH (anti fast-food freak) said to him, in a very serious manner as if he were talking to another adult, "I find that so sad. So sad, that parents could do that for a birthday party." WTF?? I mean, yes, we wouldn't do that at a party ourselves, yes, we're both pretty anti-McD's, but the odd birthday party is ok! - what is saying something like that going to do other than confuse DS about why his daddy is saying that X's mum and dad are, well, doing a bad thing!

And breathe. Phew. Sorry to rant! I know those examples are nothing terrible, not the end of the world. But whereas I would recently have mentioned (in a v calm, non-accusatory way) that I thought those 2 things were inappropriate, and risked the argument and 2-day silence, I kept my mouth shut. For now, anyway.

OP posts:
PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 22:45

It is absolutely bloody brilliant to have this board as an outlet, btw! Sorry if I go on at length over the next little while ... Smile

OP posts:
enuffalready · 10/01/2012 23:04

PreferredPlanet TBH I think they're terrible examples, not trivial. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but to NOT intervene at any point when your H is saying unpleasant - 'thoughtless' if I'm being generous - things to your DC because of his potential reaction has made my stomach flip. And just says to me that you're in denial about how awful he really is.

My DH would get the dressing down of his life if he said something about a person being attacked IN FRONT of the DC let alone TO them. And vice versa - he would never let me get away with something like that. It's a deeply unsettling thing to do to a child - making them feel unsafe in their own home.

I'm really sorry, but I think you have real problems.

Feel free to ignore, though, as I obviously don't know all the nuances of your marriage.

HoudiniHissy · 11/01/2012 09:33

Jesus christ woman, he said what, and you bit your lip for fear of an arguement or a 2-day silence?

Sounds like him not talking to anyone would actually be fore the best!

Did I mention on this thread that actually one of the worst kinds of abuse is actually the silent treatment. It devalues you to nothing, and you can't even fight it, or defend yourself against it, he starts talking again IF he deems you worthy.

Get legal advice, find out your entitlement to benefits/help etc. I'm not sayIng to do anything, but you need to understand that there IS another option, and that is to stop all this stuff being perpetrated to your DC, and to you.

When little one is out of earshot/school etc, call this guy and TELL him that he was out of line with those comments, and he needs to think long and hard about what he's'said and done.

There was no nEed for any of his comments, and even an idiot would understand that they would only serve to hurt and scare and confuse the poor boy.

You need to educate yourself FAST as to your position, and you need to protect your DC.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 11/01/2012 09:35

Mine was happy, calm and peaceful - the only thing that marred it was my DM's chronic depression which caused her to just not be around a lot of the time. But I do realise, having read this board for ages (but really not planning ever to post until recently!) that I'm very lucky in that respect. All this abuse stuff is highly new to me.

No, it's not. You were emotionally neglected by the most important person in life during the time when you should have been helped to develop as a confident person who feels worthy of love. It may not have been your mother's fault, but I would bet the farm that this "happy, calm and peaceful" childhood of yours is what trained you to a) accept abuse from your H, and b) remain determined to "fix" him rather than help yourself first. You are used to being around emotionally unavailable people and catering to their needs rather than your own.

Does anyone have any good ideas for how I might persuade DH that solo counselling would be a better idea for him

Once again: you can't. Only HE can do that. YOU can look into counselling or other forms of help for YOURSELF only.

You are not Mrs Fixit for the emotionally stunted. You are here to take care of yourself, and to make sure you have the full and rich life that you deserve.

Good luck.

amverytired · 11/01/2012 09:43

My dh eventually started individual therapy once he knew that I was leaving otherwise. I was very firm.
DH admitted later that he only did it to get me off his case originally, but 2 years on and he has found it life-changing.
btw - as mentioned already, your own childhood has had a huge impact on you whether you appreciate that or not yet. It's the reason you have put up with your husband's bad treatment of you. I realised that this was the case for me too and have also been in therapy which has helped greatly.

HoudiniHissy · 11/01/2012 09:44

Op, please keep talking, i know we're freaking out a bit, but any one of us has stories like these, but with the normailisation that goes on, we too thought they were trivial. They're not.

The raw truth may be hard to swallow sometimes, but we have to take it, for our own sanity and for the health of our DC.

I'm so sorry.

singingprincess · 11/01/2012 10:03

I would like to just echo what Hissy said there.
Finding all this stuff out for the first time is overwhelming and pretty scary. And now that the genie is out of the bottle, it will not go back in I'm afraid.

I am so very sorry, really.

And what Puppy said too, it is no surprise to find some dysfunction in both families, and it's not a question of fault, just circumstance. But knowing, means you can stop it travelling down any more generations. You may find that this goes back generations too....I know I have found that.

Why was your mother depressed I wonder?

Another thing that I from talking to others in similar situations, is the prevalence of the strange attitude to food that these men share. This hasn't been in any of the books, just something I have noticed, and I don't know why.....maybe it's part of the control thing?

singingprincess · 11/01/2012 10:04

Another thing that I HAVE FOUND

Soz.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 11/01/2012 10:14

ditto on the generations of family dysfunction, princess. Now that the scales have fallen from my eyes, I can see that every single couple in my family is in some form of abusive relationship - except for the 3 members, incl me, who woke up to the abuse and left their abusive first spouses. And the hurts that have been passed on to the next generation, and revisited in abusive marriages, are all to do with emotional abandonment: there are a number of orphans in my family tree, and people who had 1 dead parent, and many who had a narcissist for a parent (and those narcs were themselves orphans or the emotionally abused children of orphans).

(and on the food thing - I remember a few abuse support threads back, how many of us had strictly vegetarian abusive Ps or exes).

Planet - there is indeed a lot to take in, in order to understand the mechanics of abuse, and the reasons behind the behaviour of both the abuser and the abused. But there is SO much information and help out there. You are not alone.

PreferredPlanet · 11/01/2012 13:37

Thanks for all the continuing replies. I'll admit that it does feel as though the situation is being whipped up a bit, to unjustified levels of hysteria - am just waiting for the first "LEAVE the bastard!" Grin - but perhaps I'm deluding myself, I don't know. It's all giving me a hell of a lot to think about, anyway, and I appreciate the time you're taking.

Hahaa re the food thing, princess! Do you have a CCTV camera going into our kitchen?! DH has a very strict, perfectionist attitude to food. He won't countenance anything ready-made or a TV dinner. This is fine with me, in actual fact, as I love cooking from scratch, but cooking for my family is becoming an increasingly thankless task as they're all so bloody fussy. DH lived at home till he was about 25 (I bet there are alarm bells ringing with you again here!) and got his mother's very traditional cooking. When we met, there were a ton of things he wouldn't eat, though he has got much much better on this front. I don't mind him having his own high standards -and he is MORE than happy to make his own dinner as long as I let him know early enough in the afternoon so he can pick stuff up - but it does feel as though he keeps moving the goalposts about acceptable food. Even after 14 years I'll sometimes put something down in front of him and he'll inform me he doesn't like it. And I've recently handed all pasta-making over to him, as he's so concerned with its exact cooking time, which is a little difficult for me to calculate, or care two hoots about, while looking after all the DC. Sigh. I can see where this is going.

I'll have a think re what you said about my mother, puppy. Thanks. I'd never really thought of it like that.

verytired, your story is inspiring. It's what I'm hoping for - but I feel that there's probably a fair bit more unpleasantness to come before that. Sad

OP posts:
ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 11/01/2012 13:48

It's no Grin matter, Planet. You should leave the bastard: it's the only thing that can incite him to examine his behaviour and work to fix it (as only he can).

IF he chooses to.

And if he chooses not to, well then you'll already be where you need to be: away from a man who does not respect you.

HoudiniHissy · 11/01/2012 14:03

NOTHING you are saying, Planet, is making me feel any better about this situation.

Flanelle · 11/01/2012 14:25

It sounds like Planet has heard about as much as she can process right now. PP, do you agree?

PreferredPlanet · 11/01/2012 15:52

I'm not making light of anything here, honestly. I am slowly processing what you're all saying.

Just out of interest then, do you think I was overreacting here - one of our most recent arguments: DH slept till 10am (I'm not saying he, or anyone, is lazy, feckless or good-for-nothing for sleeping late; it was simply a fact here); we decided to go out for a walk with the DC, but BOTH HE AND I spent the next couple of hours faffing around doing various things, some important, some less so). It got to about 12.30, only 2 or 3 hours of light left, he started getting the DC on the final approach to leaving ... I heard him saying "DD, have you brushed your teeth yet?" DD: "Not yet" DH: "Come on, THIS is why we're not out of the door yet!"

I got him alone a couple of minutes later and said something like "I don't think it was fair for you to suggest that it was DD's fault we hadn't left yet." (Is this a confrontational way of saying it? I really don't know! How would they advise you to bring something like this up, in counselling?)

DH screwed up his face and said "What're you TALKING about??" and accused me of being completely over the top - he was only trying to encourage DD to get out of the door quicker, do you never tell kids little white lies, do you never tell them Santa exists?, etc etc. I said "You weren't encouraging, you were blaming." He didn't accept this - thought it was all a mild way of getting DD out of the door, she was none the worse, and didn't feel bad from what he'd said in any way.

So ... it made me wonder if it really was all that bad and if I should just have kept my mouth shut. What do you think?

OP posts:
amverytired · 11/01/2012 16:00

PP - I became absolutely exhausted trying to think of the 'right' way to phrase things do that dh wouldn't go off on one. In this case he was frustrated and took things out a little of the dc. It wasn't too bad (bear in mind my radar is still pretty screwed..), however the fact that he just doesn't seem to listen to your point of view is what the real issue is. Being told you are over-reacting is disheartening and confusing to people like us - because we find it hard to trust ourselves (I'm getting better). Then the self-doubt slips in and self-blame and the original issue, which is valid and important, gets lost.
It's exhausting and I now is the sign of a very unhealthy relationship.
btw - my dh was dreadful when it came to food. I found myself in the supermarket one day having a panic attack because I couldn't find the 'right' cheese for the pasta - I was so stressed that yet another rant about food was going to happen. (I now know it's a control thing).

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 11/01/2012 16:02

"I don't think it was fair for you to suggest that it was DD's fault we hadn't left yet." (Is this a confrontational way of saying it? I really don't know! How would they advise you to bring something like this up, in counselling?)

Using "I" statements is what is recommended by counsellors. Because you are entitled to your feelings, your experience of events, and no-one can negate them. They can have a different view to you, but no-one can negate how you say you experience something.

You are correct that your husband was blaming your DD. Projecting "blame" for a problem (latenes) that he wanted deflected from himself, most likely. And then again saying anything he could to deflect perceived blame when you brought him up on it.

I would agree that those kinds of comments are damaging to DC: they need to know from their parents first and foremost that they are valuable and lovable individuals.

Whether you should just have kept your mouth shut... That's your lookout. Do you believe you should stand up for yourself and your DC? If so, then speaking up is exactly the right thing to do.

HoudiniHissy · 11/01/2012 16:07

I used to rehearse conversations, out loud, with my ex (when he wasn't there) just to be able to handle and cover all eventualities of whatever kick-off he'd perform.

I still rehearse things i need to say to people but gladly less and less. And not so many banal conversations.

It's no way to live you know. This fear ends up consuming everything. Trust me. I battle fear in pretty much every aspect of my life, even now.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 11/01/2012 16:10

I became absolutely exhausted trying to think of the 'right' way to phrase things do that dh wouldn't go off on one.

Ditto. I remember walking home, phrasing and rephrasing even innocuous statements of fact in my head, desperate to find a way to say things to my then-husband that would avoid him feeling "attacked" and going off in a rage.

Of course, I now realise that there is no magic way of presenting things that can successfully manage another person's feelings and reactions: only they can manage their own feelings and control their own reactions. Took me a while to figure it out, though.

PreferredPlanet · 11/01/2012 16:10

I became absolutely exhausted trying to think of the 'right' way to phrase things do that dh wouldn't go off on one.

I found myself in the supermarket one day having a panic attack because I couldn't find the 'right' cheese for the pasta - I was so stressed that yet another rant about food was going to happen.

These really hit home, tired. Sad Not quite as bad as panic attacks, but getting towards the same ballpark.

Thank you, puppy. I wasn't being completely over the top then.

OP posts:
singingprincess · 11/01/2012 18:14

It's just easier to go along with it....which is exactly what they want...total control, and if they don't have that control, they behave like tantrummy toddlers, and eventually...they hurt you physically, like toddlers often do, hitting and kicking.

I can now eat fish (fish was forbidden, but not from the chippy!?!?), and not endless home made chicken curry. Don't get me wrong, his chicken curry was nice, really nice, BUT EVERY NIGHT? And the chicken breasts had to be trimmed to within an inch of non existence.

It's a funny thing, but women who get rid of these men often report giving their children coco pops, as their first act of defiant freedom.

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