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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How to fix it all

75 replies

PreferredPlanet · 08/01/2012 21:50

Where to start. I don't know what to do about the arguments between DH & I any more. There is nothing horrific as with some of the awful stories you read on this board; no abuse or affairs or anything like that, but I am heartily sick and tired of the way he speaks to me sometimes. He is brusque, flippant, and often downright rude. When I bring it up, in as considered and thoughtful a manner as I can, it ends up in an argument despite my best efforts, and we don't talk for 2 or 3 days sometimes. I feel that he has issues with anger and takes it out on me and sometimes the DC, in over-the-top reactions.

I'm well aware that this is "small fry" for this board but am hoping someone might have some words of wisdom ...? The problem is that a lot of his attitude/tone of voice is just so subtle. It's hard to pin down, and it mostly happens during the day when we're with the DC or other people, so I can't exactly pull him up on it then. Then by the evening, when we're alone, it's hard to remember/describe exactly what it was about his manner hours and hours earlier that annoyed me. I feel as if the only way to get across to him how he is, would be to film him and show him later!

He has this compulsion to attribute blame to someone - frequently me as I'm usually nearby - when there quite often really isn't anyone to blame, or when to blame someone is counterproductive and he should just be focusing on fixing the situation. E.g. when DD chipped her tooth at the funfair recently, the first thing he said when he brought her to me was "THEY'VE broken her tooth!" - i.e. by implication he meant the owners/operators of the fair. Is this not a bit odd? Would most people not simply say "She's broken her tooth", realising that there was not much that could be done about it; she herself had desperately wanted to go on, and although he and I felt awful about it, it really wasn't anyone's FAULT!

He didn't have the best childhood - parents had many many screaming-abuse-type arguments which he had to listen to - there was no attempt made to protect him from hearing stuff - and they're now divorced. We regrettably felt we had to cut his father out of our lives about two years ago, and he has numerous longstanding problems/conflicts with his mother, who can be a tricky person to deal with, but is a good grandmother to our DC. I feel a lot of his anger must inevitably stem from all this. But he refuses to give counselling a try - even online, which I tried once and found helpful.

He says that he's become a lot less angry/more tolerant and peaceful since he's been with me (14 years) which is probably true I suppose, but I feel he's kind of got a ways to go! I, on the other hand, am not happy with the way I've changed since I've been with him - before I met him I never lost my temper, was rarely irritable, but now I have these horrible attributes coming out at times, and although I take full responsibility for my own behaviour, it's hard not to retaliate with like for like, when he's talking back to me or whatever. I can't just stay quiet and brush all these things under the carpet to keep the peace - I think "why the hell should I? Why should he get away with talking to me like that?" but every time I bring something up it causes an argument. I feel like we're like two children in a school playground sometimes.

For his part, he feels that I'm always "attacking" him, and "pointing out his inadequacies"; things like that. I just see it as bringing up things that bother me, and I honestly don't think I do "have a go at him" - from long experience, I really try and choose my words carefully, but things still seem to implode when I bring anything up.

Sorry for the monumental length ...

OP posts:
singingprincess · 10/01/2012 15:38

He won't accept it anyway. That will be your fault as well. They're nothing if not predictable.

It is generally NOT a good idea to have joint therapy. They usually use against you in some way.

It's ALL about CONTROL.

singingprincess · 10/01/2012 15:39

How is he with YOUR friends?

HoudiniHissy · 10/01/2012 15:42

For the love of god don't send him any links, don't discuss this with him!

Don't do counselling with him either. He's only agreeing cos he knows it'll be impossible for you to arrange, and more importantly He is an abuser. he will use the counselling to further abuse you.

You have a couple of possible scenarios;

one that he wakes up one day and decides to be normal, allowing you to live, breathe and prosper

or

You realise what everyone is telling you is true and that he will never change. You can't counsel him out of this, he doesn't believe he's wrong, he things YOU ARE. he will devote ALL his time and effort into proving to you and to the therapist that YOU are the fault of all this.

Flanelle · 10/01/2012 16:11

A child minder? Someone either local to you or local to your counsellor of choice? If you want to do this I guess you have to make all the arrangements for it. I would try joint, I think, just to see, if I was hoping to do a salvage operation. An experienced cousellor will see what's going on very quickly, whatever your H says about what's going on.

My take on this is that my H was emotionally abusive, but that it was truly out of warpedness and ignorance and a vile upbringing (very poor attachment, strong fear of abandonment) and that there was and is no malice. Obvs my situation and yours will have differences as well as similarities, and I do just think, might be worth a try.

Good luck!

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:37

Your instinct to get him into couples' therapy is laudable and understandable, Planet.

But the 3 Cs of abuse are the same as the 3 Cs of alcoholism:

  • you are not the cause of the abuse.
  • you can't control it - either by changing your behaviour, or making him go to any kind of therapy he hasn't chosen to undergo himself.
  • you can't cure it.

All you can do is figure out what you need and want for yourself and your DC, and do it. (This cannot, unfortunately, include "I need and want him to change", because only he can do that. And he most likely won't.)

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:45

And for goodness' sake don't send him any links.

You can't fix him. He doesn't WANT to change.

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 16:45

Houdini, he accepts what he's like. Really. He just needs to find different tools for reacting differently than before. External input, not just the same old "will try harder."

He said last night he accepted 90% of the blame for the way things were. I really, really don't think he's in it to try and manipulate the counselling and dump all the blame on me.

There may be a common pattern to abuse, but it doesn't mean that every single man (or woman) will follow it to the letter. Everyone's different, and I truly believe he wants to change himself. He's just not tried hard enough yet, and is not yet equipped with the right tools.

I really do appreciate your posts on here, very much. I accept that you probably know a lot more about this, in general, than me. But, well, some people are undoubtedly capable of change, and I'm optimistic that he's one of them Smile. I hope you don't think I'm in denial. Smile Thanks

Singing, he's fine with my friends. Just normal. Why do you ask?

OP posts:
singingprincess · 10/01/2012 16:52

Flanelle...yes a strong terror of abandonment is very often at the root of this behaviour, that is true.

But the problem with joint therapy is the blame shifting and often projection. Relate won't counsel a couple where there is abuse, for these and other reasons. It is that very fear that makes it inappropriate.

It is reckoned that group therapy is best to try and improve the abuse, coupled with personal therapy to discover where the behaviours have come from, in childhood, as you have already identified.

The success rate is rather depressing though, sadly. My abusive husband has been in therapy for over a year, and has been on a waiting list for a perp programme. Absolutely NOTHING has changed in his attitudes, the blaming, projection, the rage, the paranoia....it all remains untouched.

And meanwhile, I have children to raise, and it is my absolute duty to raise them in a nonabusive environment.

It's dead hard, but can be done.

Save your kids.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:52

If he accepts what he is like, then he will voluntarily sign himself up - just himself, no "you have to be there too" - to counselling specifically geared to rehabilitating abusive men.

AND the failure rate of those services is monumental.

AND they only work IF the spouses are living separately at the time.

Is he doing any of this? No, he doesn't need to: he's still got exactly what he wants, which is you right where he wants you.

Things only MIGHT change if they suddenly become very, very uncomfortable for him.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:53

xpost with princess

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 16:54

Sorry, Puppy, I didn't see your posts before I posted.

I won't send him any links! But he's agreed to read a book or two as well, so I need to choose carefully and hope he might recognise himself in them.

OP posts:
ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:55

I hear there's one called "Stop hurting the woman you love"

singingprincess · 10/01/2012 16:56

I ask because sometimes, isolation is a favoured tactic that's all. But as you say, there are differences.

The Freedom Programme website does a simple explanation of some of the controlling behaviours that are used.

I didn't realise for a long time, just how bad my H actually was. But taking responsibility for his stuff is a brilliant place to be....I truly, truly hope he can resolve his childhood stuff and find peace for himself and our family.

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 10/01/2012 16:56

But please stop trying to fix him.

Get the help that YOU need. For yourself.

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 16:58

I will try to get him to go himself. IMO anger management would be better than relationship therapy anyway. It would be so much easier for him nipping into town on the way home from work than all of us upping sticks and farming the kids out to a minder ... I'll work on him. I don't think he realised until last night that individual Relate therapy was an option, actually - just that couples always went together ...So maybe that's where he's coming from.

OP posts:
singingprincess · 10/01/2012 16:58

I actually meant YOUR family...probably a freudian slip there. :(

singingprincess · 10/01/2012 16:59

But it isn't about anger....that is a very common misconception. It is about the need to control.

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 17:13

Thanks. I'm taking on board what you're all saying, I really am. But if I can just play devil's advocate here ...

  • it doesn't feel like he's trying to control me. I mean, he doesn't want to know where I am at all times, nosey at my phone/emails, prevent me from going out with friends/having male friends, etc, etc. He just has unreasonably defensive and knee-jerk rude overreactions during arguments ... and the blaming thing ...
  • if he was to go to counselling alone, wouldn't he - by your calculations - take the opportunity to then totally manipulate the situation to the counsellor, as I wouldn't be physically present to refute anything he said?
OP posts:
PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 17:15

And singing, thanks for that. I hope your DH can somehow manage to take a better look at himself. What is a "perp programme"?

OP posts:
Flanelle · 10/01/2012 17:17

Anger isn't necesarily about anger, iyswim.
Counsellors in private practice and who are nothing to do with Relate will often take on couples. And a good, experienced one will have seen it ALL. I'd still try it, if I were serious.
Following this thread with great interest. It touches many chords for me.
Good luck PP x

Flanelle · 10/01/2012 17:19

PP, he might, but it might not matter, actually. He'd be listened to in ways which he has never been listened to before and rearkable things may come of it.

Flanelle · 10/01/2012 17:19

here's your missing 'm'

PreferredPlanet · 10/01/2012 17:39

Grin Thanks Flanelle. I'm really surprised at the number of response on this thread tbh - I felt it was a really mundane and non-scandalous OP! Am heartened by all the support.

He'd be listened to in ways which he has never been listened to before

I'm really intrigued by this! Could you elaborate? I really know nothing about what is actually said in a counselling session.

OP posts:
Flanelle · 10/01/2012 18:10

Happy to. A really good counselling relationship is a unique relationship - uniquely unjudgemental, empathic, supportive and healing. Nothing like even a supportive friendship - far more than that. Lots of counsellors like this from Lao Tse:

?It is as though he listened
and such listening as his enfolds us in a silence
in which at last we begin to hear
what we are meant to be.?

There are lots of kinds of counselling btw, all appealling to different kinds of people. Some research is needed :-)

singingprincess · 10/01/2012 18:16

No...it's taken me a very long time to get the "control" thing, and even longer to get the "entitled" thing, as my h only seems to work for people who are horrid to him....I mean, what on earth is "entitled" about that?

But the more I speak to experts on the subject, counsellors, therapists, and the AMAZING people on the Respect helpline, and they explain each and every scenario to me...I can finally, after ALL these years see it. Whereas before...like you...it just felt like there was something wrong that I couldn't ever quite put my finger on. THAT'S why we don't leave!!! :(

Abusive people HAVE to be the "victim", and that's the thing that gives them a weird sense of entitlement....because it's all so unfair for them, they are somehow special in their level of worldly unfairness. That doesn't make much sense...sorry.

Add a rather large dollop of misogyny and Bob's yer uncle!

But I love my husband and miss him terribly...but he is SO badly damaged by his childhood, that I simply can't risk exposing my dc, or me, to any more of it.