Should I ignore my mum's comments to my DS when they make my blood run cold? (long, sorry)

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

Background - I have 2 DCs (DS 5 and DD 2). I am separated from their father but the children have shared residence with both their father and me.

My parents live 150 miles away so when they come to visit, they always stay.

My relationship with my parents is strained at best. My mother is very controlling and disapproves of me in just about every way imaginable.

This is about the way she is with the kids, tho. She can't cope with their behaviour at all (and their behaviour is far from awful). She rises to every single situation and gets very stressed by them. My father is also very short with them and calls DD 'child', rather than her proper name.

When they come to stay, I find it very stressful, not least because I hear my mum talking to the children, mainly DS at the moment but I can see it starting with DD also, in the same tone that she used with me. When I was growing up, I was always a 'horrid child', 'stupid', 'retarded, 'the worst thing that happened' to her. She 'rued the day I was born', wished she had never had me etc etc. And of course this has left me with woeful self esteem and an inability to form a real bond with another adult.

I am desperate to protect my children from this and go over the top (probably) to make sure they never have anything negative said about them. I still discipline their behaviour, with time-out / warnings and withdrawal of privileges etc. But it is their behaviour which is horrid or naughty, not them, and I am very clear about that.

So when my mum comes and starts saying to my son 'you are a nasty horrid little boy', I want to scream at her. But I don't.

I can't tackle her about this as she has only just started talking to me again after I went to court in the summer over residence of the kids - it didn't go the way she thought was best and she withdrew all contact with me for 4 months after the court ruling. If I try to say anything to her, she will just stop talking to me again, which is fine but then the kids miss out on seeing them altogether. The kids still ask to see their GPs so I know the relationship is important to my kids.

So am I right to just ignore what she says? I end up so stressed when she is here, because every time the kids get over-excited and start to play up, I worry she is going to start saying hateful things to them. As a result, I can't leave them on their own with her and my dad. I have tried to go for a run (for 40 minutes) while they are staying, but when I get home, usually one, and sometimes both, of the children is upstairs in its bedroom screaming because it is in trouble for something and has been sent to bed. My mother has a tendency to scream like a banshee and I cannot bear the thought that she might do this to my kids.

Nononomydoit

I hope most didn't read too harshly. I just found it interesting to speak to ds1 and get his views. At the time I would have thought he was oblivious.

Also - my in laws are teachers. Great with other peoples kids.

Do your children REALLy enjoy seeing their grandparents? Or are they learning the same dynamic you were brought up with- desperately trying to get their approval and attention no matter what the personal cost?

Your parents sound like a deranged Victorian caricature and I doubt your very young children really ask to see them in any positive way.

You need to break the spell.

You can't choose your relatives unfortunately. Your DCs don't deserve to have to put up with this and neither do you. Unless you are in line for a massive inheritance when they pop off, give yourself a break

Hi NoNoNo,

Like many adults who were children of such toxic parents, you are trapped in what is termed FOG. Fear, obligation, guilt. You still seem to have an awful lot of obligation towards your parents, you have them to stay at your house for instance. There is also a degree of grief on your part for the relationship you will never have with them, this is perhaps too why you seek their approval even after their awful treatment of you and by turn your children. Their visits to you should now cease for your sake as well as your childrens' and you will need to go no contact with them. I never write that lightly but in your case such a decision needs serious consideration.

You're still seeking their approval as well like many such people of toxic parents. It won't happen. They do not accept any responsibility for their actions nor apologise for them. Bet you that you have never had any sort of apology off them.

Toxic parents more often than not make toxic grandparents as you are seeing here. Your children get nothing from their relationship with their toxic grandparents except criticism. You need to protect them now from their awful grandparents. At 5 and 2 they're still very young but they do notice when things are not right and your eldest is already asking questions about them. They when older won't thank you either for trying to maintain contact with such awful people.

You not surprisingly went on to marry someone just as critical as they are; that's what you learnt about relationships from your parents. They taught you many damaging lessons.

Such dysfunctional abuse within toxic families is often generational in nature so it was unfortunately no surprise at all to read this comment of yours:-
"I also had a very difficult relationship with my mum's mum. She was very abusive towards my mother and used me against my mum".

Your mother was abused and she has now transferred this onto you by being abusive herself towards you. You've already have two generations i.e her and you affected; don't let your children be the third generation to be affected by toxic damaged people. You have a choice and you can reclaim your life.

You need to visit the Stately Homes thread on these pages to post there too and I would also suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward.

I would also suggest counselling for your own self re your relationship with your parents. BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Re counsellors though, they are like shoes. You need to find someone that fits.

I can't add much to what others have said but your parents sound just like mine. My mum cut contact with me when ds was 6 weeks old because I disagreed with weaning him at that age ! Didn't have any meaningful contact with them till ds was around 18 months, when during a visit my dad roughly pulled ds across the room because he touched the pretty lights on the play station. I then cut contact for nearly two years. Same thing after dd was born, petty argument, silent treatment, no contact for nearly all of dd's first year. The only thing that broke the cycle was NOT responding at all to their overtures when they my mum decided to forgive me. I made it quite clear it was my way or the high way in every phone call or email and they did come round. They are ok now.

You have to be prepared though that they may NOT come round and it will be the end of the relationship. Tbh from what describe I think this would be the best thing for your dc and for YOU.

empire.

Oh and the ironing thing. My parents are like that about my cooking, pushing it round the plate and taking tiny suspicious bites along with the accusatory "the only thing I've ever seen you make is a cheese sandwich!". Yeh dad that was 20 years ago when I was 16, funnily enough I managed to pick up a few cooking skills since then. Everyone I know including my ex H who hates me says I am a fab cook but each and every time my parents visit we are all hurried off to mcdonalds in case I try to poison them.

Toxic parents don't like you breaking out of the little box they have assigned for you, it actually makes them angry and scared hence the stepping up of unpleasantness and aggression to get you to submit again.

You are not denying them a relationship with their grandparents because you find it difficult, you should cut contact because they are vile and toxic.

Hi, as someone who has just recently cut contact (not sure whether temp or permanently), I can totally understand your concerns about denying your kids their GPs. But the things your mum is saying are really damaging and for your children to see you let it go by could (I only say could) lead them to think you either vaguely agree or you think she is so powerful she can;t be challenged, which is not going to help their self-esteem.

I am so very sorry this is happening, I also share that feeling of wishing my parents were just, you know, nicer. But they are not. All the wishing in the world won;t make them change. You and your kids deserve to spend time with people who make you feel fabulous. Best of luck dealing with all this, it's not easy.

Don't let your parents mistreat your children like they mistreated you
Do your kids really benefit by having these people in their lives? And what about you? The things that were said to you as a child were very harmful to you - do you parents still have a bad effect on you?

Let's be very clear on one thing - the way your mother talks to your DC is emotional abuse. Pure and simple.

All you need to do is decide how long you're going to let this continue.

And when the DC ask why they're not seeing their GPs, you tell them this,

"Because they are very unkind and say things to you which no-one is allowed to say to you. I love you so much and I won't let unkind people near you."

If you don't protect your children from your parents, it will affect their self esteem. By saying nothing when your mother screams at your son that he is a horrid, nasty boy - what is your son to think? he thinks she's right. you agree. that's what he is.

What is said to them now will affect them their whole lives and you have to find the strength to be the mother to them that your mother never was to you.

And put them first. protect them. make sure that nobody tears their self esteem apart.

NoNo, we have a very similar situation with PIL. They sound like a very similar kind of person, nothing ever good enough for them, and so on. Like you, I struggle because the dc do seem to want a relationship with them, and I am loathe to deny them that. But every time I see them do their usual judging thing I want to scream.

Like yours, ours were much adored when babies and as they start to grow and develop anything resembling a personality (or simply as soon as they are old enough to not be walking soon enough, talking soon enough, whatever) that starts to be withdrawn and replaced with a constant stream of criticism (or praise that is so judging it may as well be criticism, iyswim).

What we have eventually settled for is complete honesty with the dc. When ds1 asks why grandad does this, or granny says that, we tell it to them exactly how it is - in a detached, this is how they are and this is their limitation kind of way, rather than in a judging they are nasty people kind of way.

So far, it seems to be working. Ds1 is considerably less upset when things like that happen, and he just says, yes, they said x, but that is because they can't relate to anyone without judging them and they always feels that anyone related to them needs to be superior to make up for their shortcomings. I don't know what it all means to ds, but it seems to be working.

That said, these things happen in our absence - I would always pick them up on anything they said in front of us and so would dh. We would also not care if they never saw the dc again, and they know it, so the balance of power is a little bit different and they watch themselves in our presence.

I think it's a good thing to look out for older people who can be a positive influence in their lives and for whom your dcs can do things - e.g. an older person in the street, volunteer reading supporters at school, older friends of yours? You could put out feelers towards a relationship with one or more of these people so that your dcs get at least some of the positives of GP relationships. Do you have a relationship with your ex-PILs as well?

These days I have very intermittent contact with my father (for other reasons). He's nothing like as bad as your parents but it suddenly occurred to me when ds was about 2 that the very idea of leaving ds on his own with my dad for more than a few seconds was laughable, and the interest he has actually shown in ds is minimal. Then I stopped worrying about denying ds a grandfather.

The 'older grandparent' issue is a real one. Let's face it, historically most grandparents would have been somewhere between 30 and perhaps 50. It's actually not that surprising that people who are 70+ may find young children just too much (I know many are amazing grandparents and great-grandparents but it's not a given). I really don't think you are denying your children such a huge amount, and I really don't think you should have to put yourself through this awfulness.

Op

It's ok to say to your mum that you won't let her see dcs if she talks like that to them. If you need to, write down how you feel about it all and give it to her. I'm sorry you have to put up with that abuse from your family.

thank you all. it's a very good point about older friends who can do the 'grandparent-ly' thing. i do have a good colleague from work who has retired. she is a little younger than my parents but has grandkids a similar age to mine. we go and visit her or she comes here regularly and the kids love her.

they also have a relationship with exMIL, which is much better than the one with my parents. it's not perfect, but it's not abusive, and if MIL were in better health, i would have no worries about her looking after the kids in my absence because i know nothing untoward would be said or done to them.

and i suppose that's the thing - i can't trust my parents, and that is shocking.

i have realised recently that it is the FEAR of their rejection that is worse than the actual rejection. my mother walked out regularly while i was growing up - always when things got too much for her or when she had a big row with my dad. i distinctly remember her walking out on the day of my 5th birthday party, just before everyone turned up. my poor dad had to deal with 20-odd 5 yr old girls. someone asked me where my mum was and i said 'oh she's run away, like she does sometimes'. no idea where she went, and there was always a sense of relief when she did go, as finally all the screaming and shouting would stop for a while. but of course, i knew it was wrong and was always so anxious and tried to stop it happening. and i guess i'm still the same - i don't want to step out of line in case it causes her to reject me (and the kids) again.

ironically when she does reject me, i'm far happier on my own without the threat of her constant criticism and disapproval.

sounds like there are many of you out there who understand how this all works. when i get a chance i shall spend a few hours familiarising myself with the stately homes threads.

thanks very much to everyone who has taken the time to post on this thread and to help me see sense.

OP, I just want to give you a big hug. I can identify with so many things that you have said, it sounds very much like my mother/childhood.

You sound as though your self esteem is (very understandably) very low. Have you thought about counselling or CBT at all? I had it for a year to help me deal with how my parents treated me and it has worked so well and changed my life. I am now much more assertive and I stand up to my mother, and it has given me an acceptance of what happened and made me realise that none of it was my fault and I am not the nasty, evil, horrible, unlikeable person my mother told me I was and that I believed I was for almost 35 years.

The other alternative is to cut contact with your parents. To be brutally honest they don't deserve contact with you and your lovely children. Why should you have to spend days in your own home effectively being bullied by them (and that is what they are doing)? You are worth far more than that. You don't have to have confrontation about it if you don't want to. Just a "no, we are out that weekend" will suffice. They will moan and slag you off and whinge but let them get on with it. Your situation with your ex sounds similar to mine with my first husband too. He too treated me like my parents did; with contempt, nasty comments, and was very controlling and made out it was me with the problem. However again after counselling I know it wasn't me with the problem at all.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk in private at any time.

To add, next time your mother says something nasty to your children, pull her up on it and ask her question after question. That makes it easier to make your displeasure clear than an out and out confrontation, which I think you probably don't feel up to at the moment.

So for example she says "you are a horrible child"

You could say "Why are you saying that to him?"

Her "Because he did X/Y"

you "Well I think it's a really unkind thing to say to a child, I'd rather you didn't say that to him"

Definitely do something though, OP. Your children need to see that you will stand up for them. I know it is so, so, so hard in this situation though.

thanks Hexagonal - I have had quite a lot of counselling in the last 2 years. Firstly related to my marriage and then on my own. I have suffered from depression since DS was born (5.5 yrs ago) but am just coming off the a/d's now, so it will be interesting to see how I cope.

The counsellor helped me to see that my depression was linked to the way I was being treated in my marriage, which was reinforcing the ideas I had of myself which had developed because of my parents' treatment of me.

I shall do some more thinking, reading, and will find a copy of Toxic Parents too.

I will do something - and if I can't make this work for me and the kids, I will stop contact. I don't really want to do that - my mum had to stop contact with her mum and I would much rather not have to do that if I can avoid it. But if it needs to be done, I will do it.

CBT might help you, it sounds as though the counselling has been good but with me I found the CBT was what really helped to change my thought process and helped increase my self-esteem. Toxic Parents is a good book, I read it many years ago, years before I decided to go for counselling and CBT, and it was refreshing to know that I wasn't the only one that had had awful parents. I think actually until my parenting I spent my whole life thinking i was bad and awful as my mum made me believe it and blamed me for how she behaved.

Like I said, do feel free to PM me anytime if you want to vent/chat or to compare experiences. Keep your chin up, you sound like a lovely person and a lovely mum to your children and you deserve to be treated much better.

thanks - I had some CBT about 3.5 years ago to help me with anxiety and it did help a bit. The counsellor I saw more recently was in to some more way-out methods, including 'tapping', 'REMDR' etc. We did a bit of that but didn't get very far as I had to stop seeing her due to financial pressures.

Sorry to hear you spent so long believing you were awful. I have the same thing. I made a new friend a few years ago and spent about 6 months telling her that I wasn't a nice person really. I thought she was just being a bit dim because she kept saying 'you ARE nice', and I kept saying 'ah but you don't know me. Inside I am awful'. And I truly believed it. Only now am I beginning to see that, not only am I intrinsically evil, I also don't automatically fuck up everything I touch and neither am I incapable of coping on my own. It's been quite a revelation really! And as for being a good mother, I am sort of realising that what counts is having happy, confident children. And, in spite of all the issues they have faced, my 2 really are very happy, outgoing and confident kids. And that's really all I care about right now.