Support for those in abusive relationships - thread 6

[ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow]

Welcome!

This is the latest instalment in a series of threads for those who are in abusive relationships, those who have left abusive relationships, and those gearing to leave.

Come vent, share, give and receive support.

The first question you may be asking yourself as a new visitor to this thread is:

Am I being abused?
Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Financial abuse Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books
"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites
So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.

oh no the weekend again, cue me crying all over the keyboard and needing someone to hold my hand.

Why does he get me every time??? Why do I expect a responsible adult to turn up/text/talk when it's always going to be him, and always at his worst??? Mr manipulation has done it to me again...

OH: so I'll be there at 5pm then and we can all go swimming
me: no, I said we would meet you at the pool
oh: no I will not be pushed out of this family. Let's make it a normal family event
me: we're separated, it's not a normal family event, i want to meet at the pool.
oh: I'll be there at 5, have you got a film for after?
me: I wasn't expecting you for the film
OH:we always do the film after, you cant push me out of the children's lives....
me: they're tired, I wasn't going to do film tonight
OH :............
and so it went on, for 45 minutes!!!!

Do you see how subtly the b*trd moved the argument along, I never agreed to anything, he just argued the point for a while then brought in another point, i was distracted and by the end of the conversation i had, in effect conceded all ground.

I need a good solicitor and about 1000 miles of distance from this man.

Sorry...I told you I need mopping up...

fool so sorry, there I was expecting a post about Saturnians, and there you are with all that shit. Yes, mine does that sort of thing - not as bad as yours because we don't have to arrange things about the kids - but the changing the subject (kind of - it's sort of at an angle, isn't it?) to sidestep the point at issue. It's all in those links at the top of the thread, under verbal abuse.

So did it, as you imply, end up with him coming to yours and then a film?

Of course...and i don't really know how...i even fed the twat!

Can you pre-empt him next time? It's a real pain having to come up with something to outwit outflank him, but I think it is worth it. (Or perhaps someone will be along to say that is passive-aggressive?) Do you have enough time to go somewhere before swimming next time - even just to pop in to a shop on the way cos you need milk (you can always make rice pudding...) so he has no choice but to meet you there?

Sounds daft, but I can treat it as a kind of sport. But I don't have young DC to think of.

Fool, my lovely, it's tough. Don't let him get in. You can say something to him like this "I am not trying to push you out of the children's lives. You are more than welcome to arrange things to do with them. I do not however want you in the house, we are split up. We are not a family and do not want you here."

If he keeps going, which he will, just keep saying "no" like stuck record, no more explanations, like you would with a whining toddler; They've asked for something, you've said no and they keep trying. So you have to keep saying no or they will think they can just get away with doing the same next time. The answer is no and it will stay no.

so wise buttons Iw ill imagine him in huge pram having tantrum throwing toys and screaming as I say NO in my most calm mummy voice!

As for Saturn update, DS1 was a complete star, remembered lines and though i say it myself, costume stood up to the brief. Play was on space..what we know, what we don't and what we wonder about...rather lovely and with a very silly song that they performed with gusto at the end (maternal heart swelling with pride and love) DS was Happy...happening more often now, sadly messed up by his "loving" fathers behaviour at swimming, but what's new?? He doesn't even need me around to help him shoot himself in the foot these days.

nose will try to turn into a sport, think i need a signed agreement so i can draw my lines consistently. He won't keep to the agreement but at least I'll know what I'm aiming at rather than making it up as I go along!!

FOTH So sorry he trampled all over your boundaries like that. You will learn in time to pre-empt such things with stock answers, or simply do your own thing.

When he says things like "I'll be there at 5" you could reply "If you like but we wont be there" or simply leave earlier without telling him. if he tries to start a scene just shrug and say "We were ready to go. Kids were restless. I said I'd meet you at the pool."

Derailing you by changing the subject.
Practice saying "Never mind that, I'm talking about this first. This is what's going to happen. Now, about the film..."

It takes a while, but is SO satisfying. I know that buttons has had some success squaring up to her Twat verbally. It's a little boost to your courage and self-esteem. x

Fool you are absolutely right that distance from him is the answer. You know, as we all do, that you get up in the morning intending to be kind and cheerful and each interaction you have with him damages you and makes you unsettled and irritable until you erupt and look like the difficult one. Whereas when he is not there the day goes smoothly, your mood is sunny and stable and you get through the day without feeling bad or behaving like a loon.

I can really see this now I am living apart from H. The last three interactions we have had resulted in me apparently being in the wrong, him offended and on his high horse and me apologising over pathetic issues he chooses to make a fuss over. Today's was me offering to do him a favour too. What did I ever think was attractive about him? He is becoming a whiny bore!

tomorrow I will be bold, brave and knowledgeable..........at least until I am in the same room as him (DD4s birthday party)

noseinbook This evening as an example - we have both agreed that we need to spend less. Also that the children should help more around the house (6,9,11 and do not do anything - if they eat an apple they just throw the core on the floor, clothes strewn where they take them off, toys broken etc. Okay 6 year old is young but I think that the 11 year old should tidy up after self a little). So we decided to come up with a "family contract" and talked to kids and kids wrote it etc - they agreed to do things like put uneaten food in bin, dirty clothes in bathroom etc and in return got pocket money. Worked well for a few weeks - house loads easier to keep tidy and kids happily saving up and buying stuff on Amazon etc. Then tonight oh said that he was going to buy one of them a toy tomorrow. I said not to - okay I shouldn't have - should have asked him not to (and admitted this) but we did agree that we had to stop just buying them what they wanted whenever (were overspending every month anyway). oh lost it and shouted and swore at me. Said that he had no memory of origianl agreement etc. When I tried to say "look can we talk about this calmly" he just shouted and swore. So if I say that it is wrong to swear at me, shout etc then I am effectively dictating to him how he should communicate. Also he shouted at ds earlier so if I tell him that he cannot and that shouting at 6 year olds is verbal abuse then I'm damaging his self confidence by saying that he is "wrong" etc.

Asking to be treated/talked to with respect is not dictatorial, it's a reasonable request. He doesn't recognise the normal boundaries of communication wrt you and the children. As for "forgetting" about the original agreement...that's just messing about!

Similar example...myDS doing music practice, got upset and frustrated started to cry and be difficult, cue OH standing at the bottom of the stairs red faced and yelling at the top of his voice at DS"you can't just shout and cry every time things go wrong, you've got to keep your emotions under control..".exit stage left, slams door, overturns chair leaves in car for unspecified amount of time.....!!!

living you have managed the first difficult step in noticing what is happening. That takes a lot of self control because you have to stand back and not get swept up in the moment.

"I said not to - okay I shouldn't have - should have asked him not to (and admitted this)"
In a healthy relationship you apologise and it ends there. Not a cue for escalation of hostiliities and shouting/swearing etc.

"Said that he had no memory of origianl agreement etc." That is an example of gaslighting you. So you look and feel a bit bonkers.

"if I say that it is wrong to swear at me, shout etc then I am effectively dictating to him how he should communicate."
You are allowed an opinion (see Bill of Rights) and you are entitled to state that you don't like it when he swears and shouts. Use "I feel... when you... " sentences and let him decide how to act. Then you are not telling him what to do or criticising him you are just reporting on how it affects you. A non abusive nice person (Mr Nice Guy) would be horrified he had frightened/upset/disrespected you and want to change.

You can't stop him shouting and swearing at your child if he chooses to, but if the pattern is such that you conclude he is abusive then you may have to move yourself and the DC out of his orbit as you have a responsibility to them to protect them from abuse. Who else will do that if you don't?

It's not sounding good. But you are awake to what is happening now and we are here to help and support you. Be kind to yourself today this is really hard stuff and difficult to get your head round.

IT REALLY ISN'T YOU IT'S HIM!!!

FOTH really feeling for you - hope you can stay strong and not let him control your days/life like he is trying to. He sounds like one of life cockroaches (sp?) a nuclear bloody bomb wouldn't even get rid of him.

A small rant from me......managing to detach a little more every day. H seems to have realised and seems to be going into a bit of a panic mode - not really having the brains to know how to deal with it he just innappropriately tries to touch me to see the response he gets. He is pushed away and I am called miserable.

This morning our lovely dog jumped on the bed - he said "hello smelly" to the dog then went on to say "its ok stay here (dogs name) your mum smells just as bad as you do" I said "I dont smell" he said "how come I can smell you from here then" he means my smoking. This was not said in jest. He hates smoking - I recently started to destress - now I think subconsciously I do it to piss him off (not healthy I know).

Other minor incident (it helps to write things down so I can reread to remind myself) DS "Mum can I have a hot choc please" me "yes of course - do you want one (to H) no he replies I'm fine. Off I toddle into the kitchen to make DS and I a hot choc. Come back into the lounge sit down - take the first sip and H says "I'll have a cup of tea though". FGS I said I just asked you if you wanted a drink - he said "no you asked if I wanted a hot chocolate, you didnt ask me if I wanted a cup of tea." I said "are you 5 years old - listen to yourself". I continued with my drink thinking I'm not getting up to make him a cup of tea. Off he then goes into the kitchen and makes himself a cup of tea. He comes back into the lounge sits next to me on the sofa and says "I'll drink this cup of tea that YOU SHOULD HAVE MADE ME"

I just sat there thinking what a tit. He churned me up - DS heard all this, such a silly little example I know but its things like this that really get me down.

That rant was a little longer than expected sorry....

Hope everyone has a good day today, stay strong girls

Love IWBFxxxx

hope you're not sick of me whining on and I havn't killed the thread.........

IWBFxxxxxxxx

IWBF hugs to you. Keep strong. They all do it. Ignore as much as you can. With practise you will be able to ignore more and more.

IWBF in our house that was known as a Love Test.
DS would be sitting lazily in front of TV.

DS to slave mother: Can I have a hot choc?
me (laughing): "I'll make it because I love you, DH do you want one?"
H: No thanks
me: here you are DS
H:I'd like a cup of tea though!

Sub text is: If you really loved me you would have known without asking, but now I have told you if you really love me you will jump up and make it immediately. Because I am upset that you seem to care about DS more than me. Waaaa!

I think the mental age during that exchange is that of a six year old.

Too tiring for words!
And I have left out the DDs saying "Mum you are spoiling DS. He is lazy he should make his own hot choc!" and me making them one each as well with marshmallows and whippycream (to Show How Much I Loved Them Too)

and if you'd known without asking and made the cup of tea, he would have said.."I didn't ask for a cup of tea I told you I didn't want a drink.................

See I knew someone like Buttons would be along to show how to be assertive.

By the way, the pop to the shops 'excuse' is for you to have in your head instead of 'I'll show that fucker', and is only what I find works for me in terms of getting into a more assertive state. You don't have to justify yourself to him.

living we had a similar thing - agreed our young adults should help clear up after meals and that we would jointly enforce it. Never happened - so at least you did better than us. If he had done more stuff like that as a matter of course, this would never have arisen in the first place.

He also remakes/forgets agreements - such as that he would be the lead breadwinner when I had had to resign from my job with depression.

As to smoking, I've been aware for a long time that I do it in part when I am angry with him. Not helpful. He gave up for a year or more, and then blamed me when he started again.

With me, it's not so much cups of tea as puddings. If I make a pudding, my preferred way is for people to go and help themselves - somehow he always managed to get me to serve it out and bring it to him (we usually eat on our laps in the lounge ) with me feeling resentful but thinking Oh it's just a little thing.

fool all you did yesterday was lull him into a false sense of security - if it would help you to reframe it restrospectively.

Do you know what, having been verbally battered and kind of disowned by my mother this week I now have a strength I didn't have before.
I think "well if I can stand strong in the face of that I can stand strong in the face of anything"
Bollocks to her and bollocks to the twat too. Neither can touch me anymore in the way they used to. I am not afraid anymore. Loosing the mother I knew I never really had has set me free. I say "You don't speak to me like that, no one speaks to me like that" and I mean it. The answer is "no". I am telling you what is going to happen and I don't need your permission etc etc"

I am getting better at 'fogging' during arguments. This morning I let the dc's have the left over choc cup cakes from dd's sleep over last night. So I know having choc cupcakes in the morning is not the most nutritious way to start the day, but what the hell. Twat walks in as one dc is munching away and I am aware he is bristling with anger and disapproval at what he sees. He questions why she is eating chocolate in the morning. I say the cakes need to be eaten, they are getting dry etc., which is true to an extent, I want them gone.

"Well that's the most interesting and unusual reason for eating cakes I have ever heard" he says sarcastically
" Ah then, now you have just learnt an unusual and interesting reason for eating cake this morning, haven't you?" I reply without even looking up.

It gets easier, it really does

Easier...sounds nice. Just now feel very ill, very tired and very vulnerable. DD4s party in half and hour...got to get my get up and go.................

Hello everyone, I've been reading but not feeling up to replying in a while..
Hello to the newbies - welcome and sorry you need to be here. It's up and down for me.

This morning's handover - he was 15 minutes late and I went outside to drop off a massive bag of stuff to be passed back to his leaving the door open. I was getting the girls' coats and shoes on when he decided to yell up the stairs that he wanted a 2nd school sweatshirt (he had a full uniform in the bag and only sends the big girl to school one day each week). I said we could talk about it later and he kept yelling to ask for it, coming in the outside door and stepping inside my inner door. He's never crossed the threashold and I've been very clear I never want him to. I say I don't want to get into an arguement, ask him to go wait outside, finish up getting girls ready and ask him to wait outside again and to stop yelling at me. He says he's not yelling and refuses to go. I point outside the door, say I need you to wait outside.. big girl is at the top of the stairs unsure what to do. He keeps refusing and says he just wants big then he'll leave. I stop asking, tell big it's ok and she should come down - I guess dropping the arguement so they can just leave. Little (2 years old) is in his arms screaming. Big (4 years old) gives me a big hug on the way out, I stroke her hair, he says thank you for giving mommy a hug (implying that mommy is in need of support?), big goes outside and I can still hear screaming from little as he tries to sort out bags and leaves. It's really hard to see them so upset.

I wrote an email saying it is not acceptable to enter my property and refuse to leave when asked, to start discussions at handover and especially to yell at me in front of the children. Anything else I should be doing? Other than detach detach detach?

Just wanted to get it out there and record it... thank you guys for existing and sorry I'm not so great at being a supportive force in here myself.

Aw foolonthehill, we crossposted. It does get easier.

Good luck on the party..

butterflybee are his visits part of a contact order or a casual arrangement? Because if he is crossing the line both literally and metaphorically (and he clearly is) and upsetting the dc's you must make it very clear to him that you will have to review arrangements if he continues to behave in this way.

You refuse to be shouted at and you refuse to put the children in a situation where they are hearing and witnessing their mother being shouted at and getting stressed. If he insists on crossing the threshold and abusing you then you will not allow him to collect the dc's in this way any more.
If the visits are part of a contact order can you talk to cafcas?

bigbuttons - the visits are a casual arangment.. we are in mediation and I've started cc'ing the mediator to all emails. I did say in my email to him that I would bring the girls to the nearest cross street for handover in future so it doesn't happen again. Is that enough? Cafcas are not involved. Can I get them involved if we are not in court?

I've still not tracked down a solicitor I feel comfortable with.. this really needs to be a priority in the next month or so. I don't know why I have a block on that. Ok, I've got some idea - it's expensive and I feel quite lost in the process of what needs to happen next. I feel stuck between not wanting to antagonise him and needing to stick up for myself and the girls (especially the girls).

Please someone tell me that I'm going to be OK, not crack up, survive and keep my distance from him....

I thought realising what was going on, making plans and getting him to go was going to be the hardest bit and then it would all fall into place gradually. But it's getting worse..he's worse, i'm exhausted, working, kids, house, finances, legal stuff to sort. he's living in nice house, next work is in March!!! being catered fro planningnewwaystotormentme. It's only 3 weeks!