"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families.

[garlicBread]

It's November 2011, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Hi, I have lurked on this and the other stately home threads for a long time, have posted once or twice I think but mostly stayed in the background.

But for some reason 2012 seems to have heralded a need in me to change things, to change me perhaps, to see things clearly. I don't know, I seem to be blindly flailing about looking for answers to my life but those answers won't come to be, I have to go and look for them and one of the big questions is WHY do I keep seeking my mother's approval when, in 43 years, I have never got it?

There was no overt abuse, I can only ever remember being smacked once. But my mother is the master of guilt-inflicting. And so narcissistic. And incredibly selfish.

I can remember once, for instance, when I was about 7 I saved up all my pcoket money and bought her an african violet plant in a little wicker basket. I hid it under my bed, watered it every day until it was her birthday. Only I got the day wrong and gave it to her a day late. She flew into a rage that I had 'forgotten' her birthday and threw it against the wall, smashing the basket and breaking the flowers. It was typical of her not to even say it was her birthday on the actual day, she plays the martyr very well. Years later my exH did exactly the same thing with a new moblephone I bought him for his birthday...he had said he didn't want anything but I bought him a new phone anyway. he threw it against the wall, screaming how dare I buy him a present when he said he didn't want to...that it was always about me and what 'newpatches' wanted 'newpatches' gets!!! It really shocked me that I had married a man who so closely resembled my mother personality wise. He was later tried for rape, sexual abuse and indecent assault (against me and others), which shows how very dangerous this personality type is.

I have never felt so low in my life as I do now, and the other day I text her to tell her how depressed I was...I really poured my heart out to her which I don't do easily. She text back with 'are you watching dancing on ice?' Why, after 43 years, does she still sting me so much?

I'm just rambling now...the new year has opened the floodgates and all my pain and hurt seems to be pouring out and I can't seem to stop it so forgive my ranting, but I have no one else to talk to.

Not been thread for a bit...but just need to vent.
Just answered phone to my Mum - only answered because it is DDs bday and she had sent a card and knew she would want to wish dd happy bday. So I let dd speak to her. Then dd (6) gave me the phone, conversation started awkwardly, with her pointing out she had been trying to ring me "for 4 weeks" (well since we were visiting at New year it cant have been 4 weeks can it!) Anyway, I apologised, and asked her how she was. Fine, she said then proceeded to ask if I was still "doing your running"(which she usually refers to as "that mental running") to which I replied that I was still running when I could fit in , then she went on to lecture me about how she hoped I hadn't lost any more weight because I was "looking very gaunt" when she saw me....etc...
I should point out that I am not underweight, I have lost a lot of weight from being considerably overweight, but have done it in a very healthy and gradual way over nearly 2 years, and now have a body weight in the middle of the healthy range!!(and my jeans are still a size 12!!)
Anyway, I told her that keeping telling me I was "looking gaunt" wasn't very kind, then said I had to go as DD was opening presents form her friends and I hung up! First time i have EVER hung up on my parents!
will not be rushing to contact her again.
It sounds quite stupid now I've typed it, but you will hopefully all understand the context and realize how hurtful constant comments like that form your mother can be....
God, she really is mean and nasty -

Well done for hanging up on her. Don't speak to her again if you can help it. In my experience the only effective way to deal with toxic people is simply to keep away from them, physically and mentally. This then makes space in your life for the many lovely non toxic people in this world and your life improves immeasurably.

Fit to burst with what is going on in my family. I'm not in a position to afford counselling at present but my family shit has reached grotesque proportions.

family scapegoat (me, that is). Married a terrifyingly abusive man, lost my mind, left him (I got better!). The moment I left him, he made a bee-line for my family, received into the bosom of the family with open arms, I was out. Foolishly, I kept up contact with my family 'for the sake of the kids'; also facilitated relationship between kids and evil ex. Roll on 15 or so hellish years (he continued the abuse, mainly financial, also endlessly dragged me through courts), he died suddenly. Kids went into free-fall.

I had cut off contact with my family by now, save my mum (who lives with my dad, so awkward); ancient mum had a stroke, largely due to family split (apparently), I resumed contact with toxic family ['for the sake of my mother']. My kids' by now becoming seriously abusive towards me. I guess that all they've ever seen is me being abused (a reason for their behaviour, not an excuse). I've been keeping my boundaries intact - just, though heavily sabotaged by kids.

Kids have run to my family with lurid tales - received with open arms into the bosom of the family: history repeating itself. Family circulating downloaded MH dx they are attributing to me re bad and mad. Mum is ill again (looked like another stroke but not), family strongly verbally attacking me, blaming me for 'making mum ill'. Mum has been supportive of me in the past and defended me to the family; now believes all the accusations, insists I read downloads, that I see a psychiatrist, that there is peace in the family 'before she dies'. Should I read the downloads to pacify her? she is ancient and very distressed, this could well be 'it'. (I can just see it: she killed our mum/granny: it's All. Her. Fault.)

the last time I spoke to my mum (family blocking my access to her re phone or visits) she said she plans to support my kids because 'they're out on a limb and need support'. She wants to see me to bring the downloads for me to read.

Anyone? I'm struggling here.

You do not have to see her or read anything if you do not want to.

What kind of RL support do you have?

And if she dies? She is, after all , my mummy, we've had a good relationnship, even though it's pretty dead in the water at present. I have some good rl support, people who care, though not many who can follow the machinations of my insane and poisonous family. YOur average Joe thinks there is probably no smoke without fire/we all have a part to play etc: the usual maxims of normal relating. Plus my kids are mashed up in this somewhere (though they have certainly mashed themselves into it!) and it is hard to step away from them. I know I have to, but it is hard.

Sounds like you want to see her, but you don't want her to lecture you. But it also sounds like you won't get the one without the other. Which scenario do you prefer: seeing her and getting lectured on your failings in her view, and batting those away as non-emotionally as you can, or not seeing her at all?

Forget the average Joe: what hypothetical people think here doesn't matter.

And while what your mother and children think does matter, you can't change their mind for them; only they can do that.

She is forcing the downloads wholesale, or the contents and meaning. The conclusion is that is it All My Fault (quel surpris) and that peace will reign for one and all, particularly her in her 'final days' if I accept I am mad and bad and , take responsibility for it, do something about it. She is bitterly distressed and won't contemplate any other concusion - I have already unemotionally batted-away the accusations but she is on a mission. Do I humour her? She is too old to know that she 'can't change my mind for me, only I can do that'. I can't be forcing the theme that the family poison has come home to roost. It is all out in the open now (previously slithered around under the surfacce really), gloves are off (as far as my family are concerned). Which is, I suppose, 'satisfying' in a way for me - it's all out now, no pretense or covering up. She is desperately trying to get it back in the box. I have previously colluded with that, up to a point, but this time I won't.

Pluckingupcourage, YES IT WAS ABUSE!!!!! It was sexual abuse. Please look at the Susan Forward book, "Toxic parents". :( I am so, so sorry that this happened to you.

Springydaffs Print out your post and show it t the GP with a view to therapy on the NHS.

Newpatches Keep typing here, if your floodgates are open, your subconscious is telling you that you are ready to deal with stuff...this is good!

Rasberry WELL DONE! Reclaiming the real you, You do not have to speak to people who think it is ok to hurt you!

So many new posters. sad, but good that you have found your way here. This thread saved my life, under various names!

thanks singingprincess, I posted, then I went away and threw up (first time i've even written it down). I've just ordered the book you mention. I'm probably going to print out my post to show a therapist if I can get one. I used to think that they were just careless about what I saw, but looking at it through adult eyes, I can't imagine being that "careless". It's sick!

plucking, well done for posting. And yes, you were abused. Your boundaries as a child were violated by your mother and her bf. She was supposed to protect you from witnessing the things you saw, which were highly inappropriate and frightening for a young child to see, and instead she actively conspired so that you did witness and experience such inappropriate behaviour.

I think it is a very good idea that you seek counselling. Take your time in finding a good counsellor, they are not all suitable for dealing with issues arising from childhood abuse.

Also there are many excellent books that you should find helpful such as Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

Keep posting.

thanks jasmine, i think the fact that they seemed to get off on my embarrassment has kept me quiet. i was a confused and scared child and i've ended up confused and insecure as an adult. i've started to get angry (at last, i have tended to be numb instead) and am wondering whether the police would consider taking action. i think the little contact i have with M will be reduced to zero. She is about to have step-grandchildren and i don't want to imagine what she'd get up to around them.

Another thread has got me thinking. The other thread was about mothers not bonding with their babies and feeling like the child was not theirs and that they were looking after him/her for someone else.

I was the child in the above scenario. It explains perfectly why I always had feelings of not being a proper part of the family whilst growing up. I always felt like the odd one out, like I was adopted or something. My mother must have felt the same way as the posters on the other thread. No feelings for me, like I was not her daughter, that she was looking after me for someone else. It explains how she did all the necessary things like clothing and feeding me. But the loving, nurturing, caring mother I needed was not there.

It's two sides of the same coin. And in turn, I also felt detached from DD and that she was not my real child and I was looking after her for someone else.

Scary, but fascinating to see just how precisely history has repeated itself. But thank god I realised what was happening and have been able to work on stopping the cycle.

Just a quick question, apart from the Toxic Parents book, which books would any of you recommend? Any tips on getting a good, specialist therapist?

jasminerice, I think that's what we're all doing now, breaking the cycles we were brought up in. What you did is so brave though, you could have remained detached but you chose to break the pattern!

I always believed that I was adopted, and married a man who was.

All abusive, he was abusive too.

The best therapists end up with contracts with the NHS..IME.

It is always worth a trip to the GP, and writing stuff down is a great way to get over a lot of difficult information in a short space of time.

courage there is a list at the top of the thread of weblinks and books.

Plucking, re finding a good therapist, I wish I knew the answer. I've found it very difficult, I still haven't found the right one, have been through at least 5 in the last five years.

Re books, I found anything by Alice Miller so so helpful, but she's not for everyone.

I wonder how it was that I gained some self awareness, enough to know there was a dynamic/cycle that was not right and managed to work to change it, whereas my mother in exactly the same situation did not. Maybe she never developed any self awareness or maybe she didn't have the capacity to work on her self to break the damaging cycle.

I find myself sometimes for a split second feeling almost sorry for her and seeing how she was obviously blindly reporting l repeating a pattern she herself had been through. But then I remember how awful I felt as a child, how alone and isolated, like I didn't belong anywhere, that nobody wanted me, not even my own mother (but she clearly loved my 2 younger sisters), and I feel very angry with her again. How could she treat a little child like that? Why couldn't she at least have pretended to love me, to behave as if she did love me, even if inside she felt nothing, detached, or even hatred at times.

princess, sorry but I strongly disagree. The best therapists are not necessarily with the NHS. In fact that's the last place I'd look for a good therapist.

jasmine I am afraid that i also fall into the trap of thinking "my M was divorced young, must have been dreadful for her to be stuck with me day in and day out" but I think she's been good at feeling sorry for herself so I think she's got that covered. My sympathy gives way to disbelief.

thanks princess - I will check out the booklist.

I worry about having to retell stuff I find distressing one therapist after another to find the right fit, perhaps I'm not ready for that yet. I think i'm going to ask for my post to be deleted, as I don't like that information up there for posterity. I've copy pasted what I wrote (and your responses, so that I can keep repeating to myselt that I've not been mad feeling this). I can't express how much it means to have someone say "that wasn't right!"
I'm having issues with nausea in the wake of this, so I am going to just let things settle for a while.

But I'm promising myself I'll come back to the thread tomorrow, so that I can remember the steps I've taken already.

And thanks springydaffs, I've printed out the post now and will try to show it to my GP.

My mother and I, and myself and DD were in a vicious circle. My mother didn't want to be around me, she couldn't give me what I needed. As a child I knew instinctively what I needed and looked to my mother to provide it. I made demands of her that she couldn't fulfill. She pulled away from me. I became 'difficult' because I was unhappy because I wasn't getting what I needed from her but I was too young to verbally articulate my feelings. Because I was 'difficult' she then, in her own mind, had justification for her feelings of not loving me. She could blame me for her non loving feelings for me and thus neatly escape and sort of self reflection upon her own behaviour and feelings.

It's easy to see how this destructive pattern feeds off itself. My mother feels detached from me and has no feelings for me and does not behave lovingly towards me. I grow more and more unhappy because I'm not getting the emotional nourishment I need from the only person who can give it. I act up because I don't understand my own feelings let alone have the ability to articulate them. As a result of my 'challenging' behaviour my mother feels justified in not liking me and not being loving towards me. I act up even more. My mother continues to feel justified in not loving me ie blames me for her unloving feelings. In this situation she would never look at herself because in her mind, she doesn't love me because I am a difficult child. She cannot see that I became a difficult child because she did not love me.

I reported my original post, a few hours ago, any idea how long it takes to get deleted (I don't want it to remain up there!).