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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 4

998 replies

MadameOvary · 30/08/2011 15:31

Hello everyone - end of last thread kind of took us by surprise!
Will copy in links etc

OP posts:
helpmeMN · 05/09/2011 10:31

I don't really! that's the thing. I would almost rather he was being a total dick about it and bringing up all the childish behaviour that I recognise than being the person I fell in love with again all of a sudden (and of course he is NOW...). I do think there are particular strains in our situation but I KNOW all of this predates them by a long way. And all of my friends are supportive and no-one has said they don't understand.

THANK YOU. That is exactly what I needed to hear.

notsorted · 05/09/2011 11:42

Dear Helpme
don't fret about why he is doing it or whether it is sincere or not. If you know where you want to go that is fine.
A psychologist is pretty hard work, I assume. Lundy says it's nigh on impossible for someone to change without years of work. But perhaps any minor change is a good thing for the DCs. Unfortunately, you are going to have to have some sort of relationship for them so perhaps whatever he does can be of benefit to his relationship with them, and if you are lucky will be a plus to your relationship as co-parents in the end?
Word of caution though, if you have a few more steps to take re the final break and can afford the counselling to continue see how counsellor handles making him accept that the relationship has reached a deadend. Not buck passing but sort of drip feed over the next few weeks so that you are rock solid?

thisishowifeel · 05/09/2011 12:48

A few thoughts:

I came to the conclusion that using the umbrella term personality disorder was good enough for me...I didn't need the detail after a while...it's all part of the same lunacy and impossible to deal with.

One of the books I read, (much more recent than Lundy) says that there are treatments for borderlines. Which these days, there may be. These things are developing at such a pace. The effect of events such as 9/11 have added to the knowledge base on the effects of trauma etc and better ways of treating it.

Stuff like emdr and inner child therapies continue to astonish me.

I must say that the therapy I had last year continues to amaze me in it's deep rooted affects on my subconscious self.

Really. I never "got" Lundy Bancroft, although I read it a number of times. I always found the P Evans books more recognisable.

I don't believe that my h feels remotely "entitled" (the essence of Bancroft's ideas), to anything, I just don't recognise that in him, never did. I believe with him it is a state of constant terror of the world, which given his childhood, is understandable, I still can't live with it though!

I don't believe that these days it would take quite so many years of therapy. But even so, they have to want to really change and take the necessary steps to make it happen. I don't believe abuser programmes alone are enough. It needs specialist one to one relational therapies as well as other stuff tailored to the individual to actually make a difference, as well as the perpetrator group work.

And which of them is gonna do that? It's too hard innit?

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 05/09/2011 13:02

I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience with EMDR and inner child therapy, thisishowifeel. Did you follow them with a therapist, or alone, for how long? How do they compare?

FWIW my ex completely fits the Lundy "entitled" model. Eg. he would frequently bellow that I "owed" him, or "joke" that "What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine." (Which is proving to be his core belief in our divorce proceedings, too.)

Madreamer · 05/09/2011 14:58

HelpmeMN Agree with other posters that your ex is putting on a show to make u change your mind. My ex does the same which is why I am trying to find ways to stop his txting/calling me (recent police report means he thankfully doesn't visit me anymore). I'd go back to the root cause of why u ended the relationship and stick with it (repeat to yourself). the Ex's are obviously capable of changing and know what is needed, but it shows how little respect they have for us that they only use it to manipulate us and get back together as and when they wish. I'm saying this as much to myself as to you (having a wobble). X

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 15:13

You said your H's renewed interest in counselling and therapy feels genuine, HMN. I think it could well be, but would like to point out that this does NOT mean he will get 'cured' OR bring improvements in your relationship. We all find ourselves very interesting, and a person with disordered thinking has much to be interested in. No doubt he'll gain fascinating insights from whatever therapy he pursues.

But it won't change him.

notsorted · 05/09/2011 17:25

Hi finding this discussion of therapy really interesting.
I would love to find out about Inner Child and Emdr too Thisis

I'm not sure that we can say it's ok for us to use therapy to change ourselves/grow stronger/gain better insight and the abuser can't and it won't happen.
I think when there are children involved you have to hope that there is a chance for change as regards both parents.
Perhaps the point is that we stop basing our lives round the hope that change in the partnership of equal value is possible and that we know what is good enough and what isn't for ourselves and our DCs.
I am still digesting Women Who Love Too Much

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 17:41

I'm not sure that we can say it's ok for us to use therapy to change ourselves/grow stronger/gain better insight and the abuser can't

There's a difference between an abusive individual and others. The difference is exemplified that you're thinking in terms of what's fair ...

notsorted · 05/09/2011 17:51

Absolutely, but unless born psychopathic and it's a brain pattern set from birth or in place and untreatable in all circumstances then there is a possibility that they might develop self-awareness if they chose to and address all the f*ups of their childhoods/upbringing.
My thinking probably coloured by my discussion today with counsellor re how my perception of unsafety in my childhood due to mum's MH issues meant that I was primed to respond in certain ways to behaviour of ex, ie why I didn't just leave at once, why I hoped to sort him out, thought some of it was normal or allowed myself to talk myself round.
Guess it's degrees of dysfunctionality and how it manifests. Being selfish is unwillingness to change or abusive not entertaining the thought of change and psychopathic being certain that this way of behaving gets you what you want and sod the effect on those you pretend to care for.
By being here and considering what's fair, I think we can reasonably say we are not psychopathic though I would not be 100% certain that in some ways I am dysfunctional or have been ...

MadameOvary · 05/09/2011 18:02

Definitely agree re degrees of dysfunction. And as for self-awareness, well speaking for myself I gained a bit more along the way, along with the self-respect, and started treating everyone better, including myself. So change is possible, but you then have to deal with established patterns and dynamics in relationships, so it's twice as hard.

As typified by how much harder the relationship becomes to bear after we start having the "lightbulb moments".

OP posts:
saladsandwich · 05/09/2011 18:04

helpmeMN - my ex did the same thing as yours, he use to go to counselling but no idea if he even mentioned the situation with me, probably sat there calling me. he did the hugging thing too which then progressed to kisses and i ended up letting him back in which was the worst mistake i ever made i left him 3 mnths after that but not after something much more terrible.

just my personal opininion i don't think they want to change? why would they? they have everything, my ex before i left had sex when he wanted, had money when he needed it, had me 100% to himself, mine suffered from low self esteem and saw alot of people from the mental health team, psychologist, psychiatrists, cpns and hes been under them years and it made no difference. X

thisishowifeel · 05/09/2011 18:17

I can only speak for myself, as I am all I really know.
The inner child therapy has changed me at a core level. My family are even more dysfunctional than I ever knew, and the better I get, the weirder they appear. To the point where I am left speechless at some of the stuff I once found completely normal. It was all I ever knew.

During this process, I am discovering jusy how abusive and disgusting my first h was. In lots of ways worse than this h. And that got physical too, but I wasn't strog enough to acknowledge it. AND the amount of physical violence in my family, looking back, utterly horrifies me. My sister and her daughter having a stand up fight in China town one christmas. It was just par for the course. Really.

Looking back, I am stunned that it all seemed so well, just normal. I didn't see any other mothers and daughters having a slap and punch fest in the street that night though.

My mother was often violent, I don't know why this hasn't been more in my mind. She used to start by finding some kind of fault, shout, go away, stomp back through the house and have another go. Repeat this a few times and then eventually would launch a physical attack.

I remember turning round to after she had assaulted me and brazen as you like saying..." now where did that get you then eh?"

But I myself was capable of such cruelty through sarcasm. My " defence" would be that it was my way of coping, it was all I knew etc etc. It was still abusive. But there was no mileage in "nice" in my family.

I used to blank my first h..which is abusive, lwave the room mid sentence, also abusive. But then I felt nothing but contempt for him, he abused my body, abused my money, my space..he filled my computer full of porn. The line between self defence and abuse becomes blurred and it all becomes a dyfunctional horror show.

I am NOT IN ANY way excusing or condoning our realities here. Really, it's just that when it's all you know, the coping mechanisms are destructive too.

That's what my therapy changed. The way I see me, in relation to ALL of that. And how I define MYSELF in relation to others in the world.

I haven't had EMDR, but I have a friend who is a practitioner. I looked at it for ptsd, but went with CBT instead. The inner child therapy was NHS.

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 18:18

Notsorted, I'm worried about you. You do know the answer to "Why Do They Do That?" don't you?

Either he's got faulty wiring and can't change (or even fully understand why it is you want change) or he is how he is because it suits him.

Where's the motivation to put himself through the long and very uncomfortable processes of self-discovery, remorse, humility and slow, scary change? Why would he do that?

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 18:24

I have been abusive, too. It was my normal, too. My understanding of relationship dynamics was dysfunctional. But I was unhappy; constantly striving for a harmonious relationship, without knowing how to be in one. I devoured self-help books, trying to find out what I was missing and how to get it.

My husbands did none of those things, except the abuse.

thisishowifeel · 05/09/2011 18:27

To add......

I didn't realise that this amount of change and depth of change was possible.

It's like being at a corner of the street. You have a memory of where you've come from, but until you peer round the corner, you can have no conception of what lies ahead. And just how different things can be.

That is frightening, especially for these toddler men, who barely know where they've come from.
It was frightening for me too, but I really couldn't survive where I was, and had to explore around the corner.

thisishowifeel · 05/09/2011 18:29

Yes...I started with Games people play, went on to women who love too much, endlessly sought counselling etc.

I have always had an inkling of wrongness...since I started primary school in fact. But it was the sheer power of the inner child stuff that has changed everything.

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 18:35

Yep, me too :) Am still doing it.
It ties in with other work I've done and am doing. Don't believe the other stuff would work without the inner child (bless her!)

thisishowifeel · 05/09/2011 19:21

H knows that he is utterly dysfunctional and strange.

He has dabbled in various religions, from that Tom Cruise weirdshit to calisthenics (?) been on religious retreats. has holed up in his house speaking to no one with various pop psychology books, (always about gaining control of one's own life). He has always been reclusive and tried to hide his family, not easy when one of them was regularly in the local rag on the crime pages. And certainly does not sit easily with being in show biz!

He spent most of last year in "therapy". As I know though there are therapists and therapists.

I remember at university, my dad was dying of Parkinsons...nearly at the end of his life. At the end of the session the counsellor I was sobbing to about this, stood up and informed me that he had just been diagnosed with Parkinsons. I can barely believe that, even now, twenty and more years later. Hopefully that just wouldn't happen now.

But when I have shown professionals his own synopsis of his own life, as I have started to do......bright lights in dark cormers and all that.....ALL of them have said that it will take a lot of VERY intensive therapy to get over his stuff.

I feel desperately sorry for him, as I would anyone from that kind of background. But my responsibility, as he has accepted, is to the kids. End of.

foolonthehill · 05/09/2011 19:35

Just popped in for a quick look...himself is at the car ranting about children losing things. Glad he's back to ranting....was really really strange having someone being nice and co-operative for the afternoon.

Can I ask you something...was it easier to cope in relationship before or after you realised it wasn't normal and he was/is an EA???

My heasd is going to pop...now I think I am the one with the problem...or have I just been made this way??????

AAAAAAAAAArgh.

notsorted · 05/09/2011 20:07

Dear Garlic
am just trying to sort tangled mess in my head. Don't worry that there is any going backwards. Lundy was revelatory but only touched on some of the things that my ex did. I have to deal with why I let it happen and why I thought I could manage this relationship built on lies and insecurities.
Not being able to cope does not excuse abuse, shitty childhood doesn't allow abuse, a sorted mature person begins to wrestle with his demons not with someone who shows love and kindness and who is holding their DC in her arms. Verbal abuse is not acceptable in front of DCs, not being able to control your temper or emotions in front of the DCs is not acceptable, shielding yourself by stonewalling, walking out, running away when you are responsible for the DCs you have created is not acceptable, not being able to row about the normal stresses of family life without resorting to abuse is not acceptable.
Doing what we are doing by exploring our emotions honestly, openly, doubting, stumbling our way towards a way in which we protect and nurture ourselves so that we can nurture our DCs and those we love is the only right way and possibly the only way as we will never fathom all that they do and why.
I think in the end I'll give up wondering about his behaviour except to say there are stabs at explanation of why does he do that, but in the end it doesn't matter what the explanation is. He is f*ed up in so many ways and facing his problems for the sake of his DCs is so unlikely.

And Fool, yup it is a total mindf*. Whether it is better before or after depends on what you want to do. You can probably manage for a short while, avoid some flashpoints, get a little better at walking on eggshells but in the end he is irrational and basically has the maturity and wiles of a toddler - think I want that toy and will scream and kick if I don't get it or it breaks if I bash it on the floor - so eggshells it will always be and they will break in most unexpected ways. And toddlers are sometimes adorably sweet, but while you hope they will grow and learn, he won't/can't unless he finds professional help to cram in a whole lot of life and its lessons pretty damn quick.

Sorry all apologies for extremely long and didactic posts. Think I've had a lightbulb moment and want to express it somehow.
Do tell me to shut up, if I need it xx

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 20:31

was it easier to cope in relationship before or after ... Good question! I'm not even sure I can answer it, so this may be a ramble.

I didn't consciously realise it was abuse until much later. But the part of my mind I tried to ignore was yelling louder and louder! Our relationship was abnormal from the beginning. He was distant and non-committal, we didn't have dates, but he would be so open and communicative at times that I felt we had something special Blush and he was a bit shy or something Hmm
I turned his proposal down at first, saying "I didn't want to marry a stranger". He told me he wanted to change, for us to be happy, blahblah. I wanted to believe it.

Without realising it, I set myself on a mission to educate him. I picked him up on lapses of manners; organised normal social events; helped him with the shocking gaps in his interpersonal skills, especially language (that semantic aphasia, I now realise); portrayed an in-love couple in hopes it would somehow fall into place.

During those times I wouldn't say my relationship was easy, but I felt as if I was going somewhere with it and it would turn out to have been worth the effort. People did comment on how I seemed determined to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! It felt 'right' to co-dependent me. I persevered.

He was vile to me on our wedding day. When I decided not to ask my parents to take me away from the reception - a decision I recall very clearly - I shut my inner voice up as hard as I could. Typing this, I've only just noticed that was the night I decided I'd drink as much as it took to get me through it ... :(

Drinking, striving, crying, shouting and cajoling, I kept chasing the Good Relationship that was always in view, but never in reach. People kept making comments about what a lovely wife I was - I clung gratefully to their words, never realising they were trying to tell me he was not a lovely husband. When I said I was very happy, that stifled inner voice said "Are you?"
I wasn't happy ... but I was On A Mission.

The first time I met him, I heard my inner voice as clearly as if someone had spoken out loud. It said "That man will destroy you if you let him." The next time I heard so clearly, he'd just left me - again - I was destroyed. My inner voice said "At last! The final rejection!" I paid attention. Despite my howling despair, I didn't ask him to come back. As soon as I'd heard his car leave, I phoned his friends and family to tell them we were over.

I began to consciously identify the abuse afterwards. I have picked over that relationship for longer than it lasted: learning, learning; getting to know myself; altering my perceptions and taking off the blinkers. It's been hard - it still is, though less often.

The worst part was The Mission. I sacrificed myself unnecessarily, for something that was impossible. I lied to myself. I diluted the genuinely good things in my life for the sake of his meagre approval. Not only did I undervalue myself, I degraded myself. During our ridiculous and costly (to me!) separation, more alert to his games, I tried to outmanoeuvre him. I failed. I couldn't even explain to myself what was happening. My inner voice advised detachment, my counsellor advised me how, and I focused on staying out of his grasp. It was unbelievably wearing. I was having to do the same thing at work, too, so ultimately my entire existence was based on dodging emotional traps.

I think my own dysfunction led me to, and kept me in, those damaging relationships. There were things I needed and wanted to learn; I had to suffer greatly for my lessons. There are healthier, better, far less apinful ways to learn. I would certainly advise someone like me to get working on the detachment NOW, forget about Missions and Comprehension. Those can come later.

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 20:44

Wow notsorted, what a cross-post!!!!

Yes, to what you posted. I understand. x

notsorted · 05/09/2011 21:00

Garlic
what an eloquent post. BTW do you have DCs? I can't remember? This is my conundrum now. Basically he's incapable of normality. I did your bits too - he's shy, he needs nurturing. I used to think he was like a dog that has been kicked so often, that I was going to be the one to show him how to deal with difficult things or better still that we'd compliment each other. D'oh.
Now my worry is for DCs damaged by all this crap. They don't deserve it and I'm the one to pick up the pieces, again. Grrr

garlicnutter · 05/09/2011 21:14

No DC. He has now, dread to think what low relationship goals they'll grow up to have :(

As you say, D'oh and grrr!

Caring, interested, sane & functional adults can have a tremendously positive effect on DC :) Yours may go through a dodgy year or so (sorry) but am sure you'll do wonders!

HerHissyness · 05/09/2011 21:24

garlic, that is a fabulous post! really insightful, healing too! thanks a billion!

I've just told someone to come over... poor lamb www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1294180-in-need-of-interim-support-re-Emotional-Abuse-really Hope she'll make it soon!