He doesn't want to marry me - Long

[ButternutSquish]

Name Changed for this one....

Sorry, this will be long but I want to fill you in on some background.

I met my DP online nearly 3 years ago & we moved in about 17 months ago. Prior to moving in, he told me that he'd had a breakdown in the past and he took tablets. He's a bit quirky and he'd been fine so I was ok with that.

When looking for a house he decided he wanted to buy alone and I'd pay a 'rent'. I was a bit miffed but as I already had a house I figured that it was early days and it gave me security if anything went wrong in the beginning. We chose the house together but just before moving in he asked me to sign a cohabitation agreement, which is in effect a pre-nup. I was quite shocked but when we talked it through I felt it didn't really make any difference. We both have good jobs, and I don't need him for his money or anything. Then his parents came down and his Dad give me a little 'chat' and was asking whether I was contributing to the morthage, etc etc.

Anyway, we moved in, everythings been fine although I did find out that he is has schizophrenia which I wish he'd been honest about.

I've been married before & the divorce was finalised whilst we've been dating. I've always been very honest about wanting to get married again at some point, and I felt that moving in together was a stepping stone to this.

Last year after some rather athletic and satisfactory sex (sorry, tmi) whilst in the afterglow I said that I wanted to marry him. Not an actual proposal, just a statement. He flipped a bit and said it was far too soon and what was I thinking of. I was quite upset, & we discussed it. He said, not never, just not yet.

Aside from this my friend makes bridal jewellery & tiaras and so the subject of weddings comes up quite alot and of course we've talked about our dream weddings. She is a friend of both of us, and we chat about her and her business and he's asked me what my dream wedding would be. He also often says things like, 'let's run away to Vegas'.

A couple of months ago during a conversation, he told me that he never wanted to get married. I was really shocked as I thought he should have mentioned it before hand. I asked him if it was about the money (he has more than me) but he said no, and he just didn't want to as things always seemed to go wrong. I thought about leaving but that seemed ridiculous as the whole point is that I want to be him, faults and all. At some point later he told me that he didn't want to get married now, but he would at some point later.

A couple more months have gone by and during a conversation about the house it became apparent that the reason why he didn't want to marry me was the money. He has recently be made a Partner in the firm he works for. I offered to sign a Pre-nup but he still says no. I feel he doesn't trust me and I do pride myself on my ethics. I have my own house, my own business, car, savings and I pay half for everything. I feel as if he's ripped my heart out.

After a massive row he admits he's got caught up in the money side of things and been blinded by it. He admits that I've never done anything to make him feel that I would want to take anything from him. I have handed back the jewellery (a few nice things) back to him as I don't want anyone to think I have taken anything from him. (he didn't take it but I put it in one of his drawers).

We've managed to get back on track although I feel everything is very fragile at the moment, and it wasn't helped by a visit to his parents where his dad quizzed me on my pension arrangements (WTF!!) He's away on business and back on saturday and he told me on the phone he's bought me "something". I love presents the same as anyone, but I feel I can't accept it but it I don't we'll be back to square one.

Feeling really shit, and works really stressful at the moment. And just had the period from hell after being nearly 3 weeks late!

There is ONE thing I admire about lawyers, it is their ability to perform. Infront of the court, infront of opponents, girlfriends.... They are TRUE wordsmiths, and know exactly the effect their words have. In my view, lawyers are skilled manipulators. One would hope they leave their cloak at work.

I am sorry OP, what I gather from reading your thread, is that your dp is SAYING all the right cosy and cuddly little things, he is acting lovelorn, but categorically, he is getting what he wants, on his terms, and that is something different to what all this "lovesickness" would suggest.

Do you have any friend who is a lawyer? Did you take legal advice before signing that cohabitation agreement? If not, I suggest you talk to a solicitor, it won't change your legal position, but it might help you understand your DPs thought processes even better. It's the curse of getting involved with a solicitor. They are always arrogant and will always be thinking about the possible breakup and the potential cost to them. It's how they are trained and it's their day to day work.

It seems that all is lost for love right now, but have you considered that if you stay with this man for years, and if your rent goes in any part towards paying the mortgage, or frees up his money so he can pay the mortgage, his house increases in value, you've paid for that extra equity and you won't see a penny. You might be really gutted on this point as well, if you stopped loving him.

and presumably he doesn't want children with you, it would be an even greater threat to his wealth.

Sorry for the brutality, but it seems he sees you only as a temporary visitor in his life.

Thanks for all your further replies

@ Eurostar. I'm not overly concerned about the dress/tiara. As I've said earlier, I was being flippant. I'd turn up in my dressing gown if that's what it took! I'm certainly not naive and I know things can go wrong. I was married for 17 years before my exDH decided we'd been through enough. Maybe part of me does care what other people think. I think it's a natural progression for most people who love each other. I appreciate not everyone thinks this way.

As far as his parents are concerned, I have no real issue with them other than them wanting to know exceptionally personal details about me. If he wants to tell them everything about his personal business, then that's fine. On the whole, we get on ok & my DP has commented that his Mum thinks about me as the DD she never had. I understand that they want to protect him, but there's protection & smothering to death! I know they love him deeply but they sometimes forget that he has issues and they badger him over and over again. There have been times I've wanted to shout at them to just "stop it", but I am his DP and not his carer. He has to stand up to them himself. It was my turn as he has been made a Partner, he's achieved everything (currently) that they expected of him, and they didn't have anything to have a go about.

@ Mitmoo Yes, he's being honest, and I'm grateful for that. I know where I stand completely now and can make decisons that I need to. As far as his meds go, he knows he needs to take them & I can't imagine where he'd stop taking them because he's feeling well. I also know if he's not taken them as there are subtle changes. Also, the finanaces aren't weighted in his favour. I don't pay his mortgage. He pays that. I used to pay a token rent which now goes into a joint savings account & he contributes the same amount. I don't pay for maintenance on his house either. My old house is rented out and I currently don't intend to sell it. We have a joint bills account but we each have our own seperate bank account.

@ CD & QS He is a specialist lawyer, nothing like a property or divorced lawyer, but I hear what you say. I think I need to say this again....I'm not in it for the money. I'm not worried about not getting his money or a share of the house. I'm maybe in a different situation to others, I'm financially independant from him and whilst I do live in a nice house with him, I could go back to my own house.

"As far as his parents are concerned, I have no real issue with them other than them wanting to know exceptionally personal details about me. If he wants to tell them everything about his personal business, then that's fine"

Have you not realised Why his parents are asking about the mortgage, your pension? It is in case you have a future claim on your DP's wealth. They are checking out your legal position, just as DP has. They are checking that the family money is protected from your "claws" (as they see them)
in the case of any breakup.
.

We hear what you say - you're not in it for the money.

But, you will Never convince a solicitor or his family that, when push comes to shove, you wouldn't put in a claim. You just might, that's what they want to protect themselves against, even if it is the most unlikely and remote possibility.

In fact, should you break up after years, and if you sought legal advice, your own solicitor would have a duty to advise you if you had the smallest possibility of a claim.

You can say it to him until you are blue in the face, you probably have, but it won't change his attitude.

Butternut - if he loves you, he won't end the relationship if you move out. He'll try to get you back. If getting you back involves accepting your need for commitment and children.

Basically, he's got it all his way, and has got you believing he should be allowed to dictate the terms of your relationship. The only way you'll change that is to make it clear you are prepared to leave. But that requires you to believe he will fight to keep you, not just shrug and go find someone else who will have a relationship on his terms. Do you believe he loves you enough? If not, why are you wasting your time with him?

Also, I'd not be prepared to be paying half a mortgage on a property I wasn't on the deeds for. If he does end your relationship you will have subsidised his investment, but have nothing to show for it. Either it's his home and he pays entirely for it or it's your joint home and you jointly own it. (A more reasonable approach would have been to change the percentages you each owned to reflect him putting in a larger sum than you)

a further thought,

for goodness sake accept all his presents with a good grace and happiness!

It is a lovely thing to give presents, it makes the giver feel really good about himself.

As he has now protected himself with the cohab agreement, he probably feels safe as you can't get at his capital, and so he feels happy and free to give you lots of presents.

He wants to give them to you.

Enjoy them.

PS and for goodness sake keep the presents (when) you break up, he can afford it, don't have false pride and hand them back.

I agree with countrydreamer - you could say you are being more generous than him, how many years of his mortgage have you paid? that's a rather generous gift!

Butternut has said she doesn't pay his mortgage!

As you are pretty financially independent from him, I really wouldn't be worrying too much about that...

far more important is, can this man give you what you want? And if he can't, what are you going to do? Does he really love you?

imho...

You are in your fourties, so a grown up. You dont want kids. You have your own business, own your own home, and tenants currently pay your mortgage.

Your partner has a good job, pays his own mortgage, you live in his house on a cohabitation agreement, you both put money into a joint savings account.

It seems very reasonable, and I can sort of see why he thinks you should be satisfied. You are both mature, want no family, are financially independent, so I am wondering WHY do you feel you need marriage?

Removing the Romance from Marriage, marriage is a legal institution that take care of the couple and their childrens interest, and protect them legally and financiall especially if there is a death or a breakup. But your partner has taken all the equivalent steps to protecth himself in the case of a split or a death.

So, what I am wondering, seeing as you dont need marriage for financial and security purposes, why do you want it?

You need to have a serious think about this. Because as long as you want marriage, you are not as compatible as you think. And you need to work out what aspect of marriage it is that you need. The financial security (you say it isnt) or the Romance (can be achieved anyway) or the commitment (you will never get any financial committment from him judging by his actions), so what is it?

I don't see any reason to doubt he loves you. However, you have given up a hell of a lot for him, namely marriage and children. He doens't want children as they don't fit with his job, and I don't believe (perhaps I"m wrong) that you just wrote off your chances years ago because of the endo (I know it depends on the sites of the endo and what state it is all in, but I am also a mother who had bad endo and got pregnant immediately twice, so know it's not always a barrier to motherhood though I don't know your personal situation).

I think you have resigned yourself to accepting what he has to offer, because you love him. Only you know if that is really too much of a compromise (I suspect it is).

Reading this, it seems to boil down for HIM loss of control and trust.

The scary bit about loving someone is that step where you hand your power/sense of control to your partner. Even for a moment. That bit that is so crucial to you and it's scary. Very scary. And the next bit is even scarier. Once you hand that power to your partner, you have to trust that your partner will not abuse it, harm you, and he/she will hand it back to you.

From what you write, I cannot see him doing this. Ever. Regardless if he puts a ring on or not, I just cannot see him ever forming a partnership where he doesn't have complete control and would put his trust in you.

And I think this is the bit that is really important to you, not the actual ceremony/ring/financial bits that come with marriage.

Something from your last post to also think about...when I read "I'm not in it for the money" ... all I could think is, but IS HE? What would happen if something drastically changed to your current financial arrangments?

What if his firm closed, he lost his job, and couldn't find another one for next 2 years....would he start expecting different financial arrangments in your relationships? You keep saying 50/50 as far as expenses but I get the impression you earn less income than he does. (Is that wrong? And if not, have you discussed with him how he would feel if you expanded your business and more significantly more than his salary?)

Flip side, what would happen if you had to sell your assets because something went horribly wrong with your business, your business still went under, and you coudn't find a job?

Would you be able to count on him to support you? For how long?

Things to think about. Because again, my impression is that this is all about trust and control.

Sorry haven't read to the end of the thread yet so someone may have pointed this out already....

but I think his attitude to money comes from his parents/dad - where do they get off questioning you about your finances? Do understand that schizophrenia could cause paranoia even when on medication but I feel that is a red herring when it comes to the money issue.

Will carry on reading....

Hmm. Sounds like you need to make some tough decisions.

On a practical level, the strongest argument for getting married is to be recognised as a family unit if you're planning to raise children (eg if one of you is going to be a SAHP for a bit, parental responsibility, maintenance, etc etc). If you're both financially independent and there are no children involved then marriage would be purely for the emotional statement. While I'm not denying the importance of that, and how painful it must be for you to hear him refusing you that, there are lots of ways of being together.

How important to you is that emotional statement? Do you want to stay with him even if he doesn't want to get married? If the answer's no, then your way forward is clear.

If it's yes, then I think you need to take steps to put your contribution to the relationship on an equal footing with his.

As I see it at the moment a core problem is that you're behaving in ways consistent with a relationship that is moving towards ever-increasing integration of your two lives, assets, and so on. But he's giving you lots of loud and clear signals that you can share your stuff with him as much as you like but he's going to put strict limits on what he's willing to share with you. That's unfair and one-sided and you're only going to resent it more as time goes on.

Move out of his house. Stop paying towards his mortgage - a mortgage on a property you've signed away any beneficiary rights to. If your place is a long way from his, then by all means sell it and buy somewhere near his house, but set up and inhabit your own space. You're unlikely now to be needing to move DCs between homes so you can arrange things to suit just the two of you. You wouldn't be the only couple ever to do this - plenty of couples keep their own homes while enjoying long-term, stable relationships.

Then if he wants to see you he can bloody well come and visit you in your space some of the time. You can choose when you do or don't want to visit him in his space.

If he decides that he doesn't like this setup after all and 'wants you back' then you can explain to him in words of one syllable that integrating your lives cuts both ways. But until then, keep your dignity and your own money and stay as independent as he's indicating he wants to be.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Ok....deep breath.....

The reason I want marriage is the formal commitment to me & for the romance. Not about the money. I've been poor (thanks to exDH) and I'm certainly not rich, but very solvent with savings. Thinking things through I know it's about control and trust. I do believe that his parents have put him in a position where he almost has to get their approval over every aspect of his life that maybe he doesn't actually trust himself. And if he doesn't trust himself how can he trust me? During my thinking I've been trying to work out what's been the most hurtful; the non-marriage thing or the lack of trust, and the lack of trust bit wins everytime. As CD says, I can't change him, I can only change myself. And maybe I shouldn't trust him. Pchip has hit the nail on the head about it being scary when you love someone and you hand power to your partner. I have given him all the power.

I still love him deeply, but need to pull back abit and get some control going. First thing will to get a proper rental agreement set up with him and ensure the rent goes to him, and not into some savings account. If he wants to put it in there afterwards that's up to him. I want to stay with him but I also want him to see that I am taking control for me.

I still want to get married, but that's unlikely to happen, I see that very clearly now. I don't want to flounce off.

And the children thing.....I had 6 attempts of DI when I was 30. My exDH was infertile. During investigations into my because I didn't conceive I found out I had endometriosis, BUT only found out about 5 years that when they did the op when I was 30 that one of my tubes was completely blocked. After I split with my exDH I put it about a bit, was a bit bad with the contraception bit and still didn't get pregnant. Been with DP and have regular sex for the past 3 years and still not pregnant. At 43 my endo must have got worse and my conception chances with everything normal would almost be on the floor! I gave up hope for children years ago, it's nothing to do with DP. But it would be difficult if we did have a child as his meds conk him out at night and his patience levels wouldn't be the best.

If your way forward in this relationship is to start paying rent to him, then, I do find that most bizarre. Why not pay rent to another landlord?

Is it because you are worried about him kicking you out, and you want the legal protection a tenancy agreement gives, if you cant have marriage?

How odd.

I don't understand what you are saying about the rental agreement? Forgive me but you sound muddled here, please go and show the cohab agreement to a solicitor.

What does the cohab agreement stipulate about so called rent.

The purpose of any "rent" is to keep you legally at a distance so you can't claim on his house equity or other capital, your status is a lodger.

Are you really happy to be his lodger?

Excellent idea from OTheHugeRaveningWolef to set up separate home And Live in it nearby.

TheFlyingOnion

Current DP would do anything to keep me, even something he really, really didn't want to do because, whatever it was, it wouldn't be worth losing me.

and, presumably, you would do anything to keep DP, even something you really, really didn't want to do because, whatever it was, it wouldn't be worth losing him?

Because otherwise, it doesn't sound like much of a match - a bit one sided?

It sounds like OPs DP doesn't want to get married, whatever the reason, and is saying "later" as a nicer way of saying no.

I remember telling my mother "You said 'We'll see'; that always means no!"

Sorry, OP, sounds like a tough decision time.

I used to pay a token "rent" to him at the beginning. I didn't expect to live in his house for free, just as if a friend was moving in with you long term, you wouldn't mind for a bit, but month on month without any contribution you'd get a bit pissed off. As this is really about trust and control, I trust him to not change the locks and have my things on the front lawn. I want him to understand that trust has to work both ways. The "rent" I used to pay currently goes into a joint savings account, which we had discussed buying a holiday home overseas (yeah, like that was ever going to happen!) I want to set up a formal AST with him more so to show him that trust works both ways. An AST gives me rights to live there if I pay the rent. Petty as it sounds, I'm taking back control over my life. I want it to sting & hurt him a bit, & let him know how if feels.

The co-hab agreement pretty much states that I have no stake in the house and details what I will & won't have to pay out for.

I want to live with this man, I love him warts and all but I also see he has all the power & control and I want to get some of that back, petty as it may seem to most of you.

I doubt he'll agree to an AST. That would give you tenancy rights to stay, even if he doesn't want you to, he wont want that. You're on the wrong track. Be guided by the cohab agreement.
Get control back by how you behave, with dignity. No more rows, no more mention of marriage, you know where you stand now. It won't change. Accept it and enjoy it if you still want him. Your rows will have stung him.

Why do you 'love' someone who is making it very clear that he regards you as a temporary convenience, someone to cook, clean and suck his cock when he feels the need, but someone he has made sure can lay no claim to him and has no power over him? Were you brought up to think that men are entitled to control relationships and decide how much commitment they will involve?

OnemoreChap I would just like to point out that yes, I would do anything to keep DP as well, because we have an equal relationship. If he desperately wanted to be with me forever but really couldn't get his head around marriage then yes, I would come to terms with remaining a DP and not a DW.

Now if he didn't want children, that would obviously be a bit more difficult....

CD - I am acting with dignity. He has to understand. We talked about an AST when he wanted me to sign to cohab. AND legally, whether he agrees or signs an AST under the Landlord & Tenant Act if he accepts rent then there is a contract in place - whether or not he actually signs a document. I have legal rights to stay in the house if I pay rent. He has to give me 2 months notice to quit if she wants to suddenly go (or 1 month at the end of any contract)