What was your gaslighting experiences?

[want2sleep]

Thought I would start a new thread as didn't want to highlight the troll and still a bit confused?

So when ex accussed me of hallucinating and attacking him and he told midwife and he lied is this Gaslighting?

Or is it when ex told everyone I put hole in condom to get pregnant...the other story it was someone else's baby is this gaslighting?

Or when he told SS I was abusing ds....and found out later ex was actually physically abusing ds is this introprjection (sorry extra question)?

Can others share there's as it helps me understand it better in real life iygwim?

Ooh, that's the first time I've heard of gaslighting. That's absolutely horrendous. My ExH thought I was doing that to him when he was losing his mind.

If it wasn't a troll, she needed to get offline for her own safety. There's times when you do indeed hope that it was a troll. If it was a troll I hope she pursues a career in writing fiction.

God, yes, inatrance, the "YOU'RE abusing ME" con must be one of the most common. With my mind tied in knots and my logic out the window, I'd start crying or yelling or somesuch, then he'd go all victimised about what I was doing to him To this day I can't clearly remember any of those rows, only how terrible I felt when all of a sudden I was the bad guy.

I honestly thought I was seriously unbalanced, so found myself a therapist. She taught me how not to respond to his button-pushes, and the rows instantly stopped. So he divorced me - for emotional abuse. I signed willingly

Dione, that's like reverse gaslighting, isn't it? Must have been horrid for you.

MN posted on that thread, saying they'd identified OP as a known troll. They thanked respondents for their wise replies, and pointed out that the vast majority of posters are real.

I, for one, am glad I read it. Some of you on this thread wrote about your own experiences - I really felt for you, and am grateful for some things you've opened my eyes to.

garlicbutter you could have still been blaming yourself in that relationship if you hadnt had got help! Is it because your ExH couldnt get the feed of your guilt/control you anymore? It is like they treat people like toys and when the toy doesnt squeek for them when they want they throw the toy out of the pram.
Gosh that car crash was a very clear Gas Lighting!

Do gas Lighters have fantastic imaginations then? Like the troll? The only thing now though thinking back was the lack of 'fear' in the OP/Troll? She/he set the sence well very detailed....but not much on how 'she' felt frightened. Peole who actually responded sounded more scared than she did iygwim?

That's a good point about Koala not seeming frightened. I was thinking "Don't you see how sinister this is?" and others were posting the same.

Yep, that's why I always urge people here, whose partners are telling them they need help, to go get that help! Not because they're crazy, but because it's their best chance of getting a handle on the reality. How awful that your life had to be endangered before you got that distance.

I'm sure he did leave due to my growing awareness of the game. I'm sorry to say, he managed to fog me up enough to rip me off financially - but it's all history now, thank goodness. I'm so grateful to MN for helping me to sort out what really happened.

Not so sure imagination's the right word - it's more like a game with a set of rules, isn't it?

Here's one definition of gaslighting:

"A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent. {"Definition of Gaslighting" by J. E. Brown.}

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nurturing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's attempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, instead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the presence of a gaslighter.

Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defective. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be something wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My intention should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presupposes the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but I want to be judged for my unseen intentions."

So --
"How do you know if you are being gaslighted? If any of the following warning signs ring true, you may be dancing the Gaslight Tango. Take care of yourself by taking another look at your relationship, talking to a trusted friend; and, begin to think about changing the dynamic of your relationship . Here are the signs:

1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.
3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend,, boss.
5. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.
7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.

10. You have trouble making simple decisions. 11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed. 12. You feel hopeless and joyless. 13. You feel as though you can't do anything right. 14. You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter. 15. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses."

(from psychologytoday.com)

Gaslighting is when your OH makes you doubt your perceptions of reality and second guess yourself constantly, by implying that you have 'no sense of humour', are 'too sensitive', 'overreacting', too [fill in the blank] (you are not normal in other words) and should not take what he says at face value -- you are being instructed to read his mind constantly, and not interpret words for their surface meaning. You are being told not to trust your instincts. It is a way of exerting psychological control.

Example: Telling you the forecast was for fine weather and therefore you didn't need an umbrella, when he had just heard the Met forecast for steady rain all afternoon is a lie. Telling you when you come home drenched from work that he told you to bring an umbrella is gaslighting.

Example: Telling you you are over-reacting when you feel hurt after he makes a 'joke' about you being a slut after you tell him about your many previous boyfriends, one of whom was a jealous abuser who used to call you a slut when he got angry....

GB, can you post how/what you learned in order not to respond to the button pushing?

It's not vivid imagination. It is done purposefully. They are cruel people, but will never admit to anything, because after all, other people are all overreacting to their perfectly reasonable statements or questions or little jokes. Their belief in themselves is unshakeable. For some, there is a strong element of projection. When they are finally getting the boot from a former partner, many will tell you to get the mental health help you so obviously need... They live in a mental world where they are surrounded by miles of emotional barbed wire, where true intimacy with other people is impossible.

has anyone seen the original 1944 film, from which the term "gaslighting" is taken?

Gaslight

I caught it on local TV just 2 nights ago, and it was absolutely chilling. Ingrid Bergman is the wife and acts so well, you really have your heart in your mouth with anxiety!

It is awful to think that people have to go through this in real life

TanteRose - yes i've seen it. Ingrid Bergman got an oscar for her performance. Well deserved.

Yes, looking back her examples were very clear but her fear was not there. I at first thought it was the abuser himself posting in some kind of psychotic alter-ego. That kind of trolling really isn't funny or clever. I only hope they are teenagers and not people with responsibility for children.

On the subject of gaslighting though - it is v. difficult because I'd say that all of the symptoms above we feel some of the time. Everybody is a bit insecure, has a bit of self-doubt, it's female human nature. It's what makes us not go through life blustering and blundering and keeps us as social beings rather than egos on legs.

Gaslighting is really them trying to control your last resort reactions to emotional abuse. You are being wound up, talked down to, controlled and so you fight back, you get miserable, you don't want them to touch you, you display all the behaviours of someone that may be depressed or slightly deranged. The good bits that you had are now fast disappearing and they don't like it and decide that you must be mad - this is a sure-fire way of them not having to do any work to control you, you then do it yourself. God that's depressing. I think I'm one step away from there, or rather dp is one step away from losing the woman he thinks was put on this earth for him and him alone.

Oh, and gaslighting is also an abuser's way to show feigned concern to the outside world. People then feel he's the hero because he's saved you from yourself. Really he's just found a way to avoid seeing the destruction he's causing.

Just like in the movie.

I had an ex who had a lovely array of abusive behaviors but the best was, whenever we went anywhere in his car, he would swear blind that he had given me the car keys to hold on to, when he had them in his pocket all along. We'd be standing out in the rain or freezing cold and I'd be frantically searching my handbag and pockets, thinking where could I have left them and apologizing, and he'd eventually fish them out nonchalantly like he'd just forgotten. He thought it was funny. I used to try to preempt it by noting where he put the keys when we got out of the car but he would still do it.

The thing is, he would do it beyond the point of a joke. I kept expecting him to pull the keys out any minute and he just wouldn't. He would get angry at me for losing the keys and I would think how could I be so stupid. To this day I don't know how it benefited him.

and they are so convincing, so good at lying and so good at getting everyone else to believe them and that they're the injured party....when that couldn't be further from the truth.

So does it count as gaslighting when they distort the truth beyond all recognition to gain support from your friends and family? :(

Math - That JE Brown page is fantastic! Thank you, I've bookmarked it.

This: They live in a mental world where they are surrounded by miles of emotional barbed wire, where true intimacy with other people is impossible is just excellent. It took me about 3 years of intensive reading to really understand this, it's so alien. Although I'd taken on a huge chunk of the same attitude, having been surrounded by abusers for a lifetime, it was not my emotional baseline; I didn't realise that for many some, it truly is the real world .

There was another great image on here, perhaps also from you: they live in emotional desolation, nothing for company but the wind howling through the rocks in their head.

If anybody's reading this and feeling sorry for them - I do, from a safe distance - be assured, there is nothing you can do to help. It's ingrained; it's who and what they are.

The self-protection techniques I learned are ever so simple, but I needed several sessions to practise them with my counsellor. Wrt to button-pushing, the first thing was to identify my 'pushed' reaction - a little churning in the tummy, a halt in breathing, a sudden dry mouth, etc - in my case, I usually feel thumped in the chest. They are fear reactions, which abused people have learned to ignore - although the fear still kicks in.

I would take a slow, deep breath, sometimes count to ten, making him wait for my response. With the deep breath, I'd regain control of my voice so I could reply calmly and firmly to the real situation, rather than what he expected me to feel. It was magic. The first time I did it, the bastard smirked. That's when I knew he was entirely aware of what he was doing.

Here's a made-up, but realistic, example.

Me: How was tonight's party?
Him: Good. Why do you need to know?
subtext: You controlling mare!
Me: Just asking. Anyone i know there, Jane said she might go?
Him: There you go again! I can't stand all this suspicion, you need to trust me!
Old me: I'm not being suspicious! I'm just making conversation, you know sharing! What makes you think I don't trust you?!
New me: That's not what I asked.

After I'd learned not to engage, he once came home and volunteered that he'd met Kate Moss. "That's nice," I said, "What was she wearing?" He tried to turn this into a narrative about me being scared he fancied her. "What are you doing?" I asked, curiously. He walked away.

Cunt Twerp.

Barbie, what you said here: difficult because I'd say that all of the symptoms above we feel some of the time is why I find it useful to think in terms of Personality Disorders, regardless of whether the person really has a psychiatric condition or not. PD is no more or less than a very rigid personality, with one or two aspects exaggerated and the rest under-developed. Most people have a fluid personality, with constantly shifting moods, and appreciate that other people are also like this. Disordered people don't and can't.

I take issue with your characterisation of insecurity as a femal trait, though! It's universal, surely.

I used to think that exH was a bit insecure and put a lot of his behaviour, where he seemed to have no sense of perspective and took everything 100% personally, down to a very sensitive nature (I told myself 'my BF is so special/sensitive'). I even used to wonder if he had PND because he got so much more touchy and angry with the world after each of our DCs was born.

The truth was that he actually had that very rigid personality and was incapable of counting past 1. Other people's feelings the fact that other people even had feelings and their motivations (they were all trying to get at him all the time) remain a difficult subject for him. I should actually say they are not difficult for him -- they are crystal clear to him, but unfortunately for me and the DCs he is wrong. They are difficult for me as I get accused of all sorts of crimes, mostly of alienation of the DCs from him. From a few months into our marriage he accused me of taunting him even if I said nothing at all, just wore a certain facial expression or some demeanour he took exception to. I found myself constantly trying to read his mind. He will not accept that he is perfectly capable of alienating people all by himself with no help from anyone.

Gaslighting behaviour on his part included telling me there was something seriously wrong with me because I didn't keep the house according to his mother's showhouse standards and got upset when he raged at me -- first and always it was depression, then ocd (because I kept drawings and paintings the DCs did when they were small), then hypersentitivity (because before I turned really numb I used to care what he thought of me and found his accusations very hurtful). He used to accuse me of being too indulgent with the DCs when they were babies when I attended to them when they cried. He came out with "She's manipulating you" when DD1 was only a few months old and it shocked me to the core.

When our relationship was on its last legs we arranged a refinance of the mortgage (I should not have agreed to this as the purpose was to pay off a credit card debt that was in his name but I can't do anything about it now). He told me the address of the title place where the closing was to happen and a little voice in my head told me to check it. I found it was North X street and not South X street as he had told me. I arrived just in time, having picked up DD4 from preschool, which he knew was my plan and he knew the timing would be tight because of that and the normal bad traffic, parked the car in the carpark across from the building, and wheeled DD4 to the intersection to cross. If I had gone to South X street and parked it would have taken me half an hour to walk to the building. My phone rang and it was exH very angrily demanding to know where I was as there were only 5 minutes to spare, that he had to go ahead with the transaction at the time stated whether I was there or not. I told him to look across the street and he would see me waving. I'm pretty sure he had intended to exclude me from the proceedings, whether for the purpose of some irregular financial shenanigans or just to have the fun of berating me for being late I will never know. He was incredibly surprised to find me across the street.

GB -- thank you for your example. I think where victims go wrong is to think they are engaging with someone rational like themselves, and trying to get things straight (I think that's an instinct for most normal people) so we get sucked in where the smart thing to do is not get sucked in as you showed in your post.

Forgot one detail -- the day before, he had me sign a power of attorney form for the purposes of the refinancing transaction...

mathanxiety this is awful he knew what he was doing and I wonder what other finances he would have added on? Where you left with all the debt then?

Ex wanted me to take on his loans (26K)...I had gut feelings and decided to say 'lets draw up legal agreement' on Tuesday...on Friday he just walked out of our lives...5 month scan was due on the Monday after and signing the 26K onto my mortgage...I thankfully listened as solicitor said year later to me even with 'legal' agreement...if ex walked I am left with debt as it is my house

I read on net last night that if anyone shows Gaslighting behaviours they are extremely dangerous and leave the relationship asap!
It also said to 'mirror' the erson's behaviour...so scream back using same language...show no fear...don't think that is a good idea (I mean screaming back)?

In the refinancing we added about 20K to the mortgage at a low fixed rate and took out the cash to pay off the credit card which had a much higher rate. What happened then was that when the house was sold there was less profit to divide up, to the tune of about 20K. We both shared that hit as the proceeds from the house sale were divided between us, whereas if I had refused to refinance he would have been left with the whole credit card debt and we would have shared more profit from the sale (as there would have been less mortgage to pay off before profit). He could then have seen his share eaten up by credit card debt.

At the time I didn't know exH was already busy on dating sites and had checked out of the marriage completely. I was still thinking in terms of 'we' and mutual responsibility whereas exh only ever saw things in terms of what was legal and not necessarily right/wrong. I agree 100% that these people are extremely dangerous, and no-one should stick around trying to change them or make things better by changing herself.

I am still kicking myself for not figuring out what he was up to but at the time I was embroiled in watching out for tricks like telling me the wrong address so the big picture was lost. He did the same thing right before the final divorce decree hearing, suddenly coming up with a demand for certain items of furniture, and at that point I said Fine, take the damn furniture keeping my eyes out for any sleight of hand when we finally moved he only took one thing and said he had no use for the other two large pieces. If I have any advice to give to anyone dealing with someone like this it is to pay attention first and always to the big money -- the small distractions, yes deal with them too, but try to sit down and figure out his game, the big picture, the big money questions. Do not trust. Find out your legal position and do not feel sorry for them. They have no pity for you.

I did 'scream back' and piled on the accusations but it got to the point where I did it in court, after exH filed his third motion for contempt against me. To a certain extent I agree with the idea of the really impressive pushback. But try to figure out if the small stuff is a smokescreen for something else too.

Math ex was on dating sites too...isnt the same man?? He left me at 5 months pregnant for his internet lover...who he later married /had dc/divorced. So because you said take the furniture...he wouldnt! Reverse psychology worked on your ex! He filed 3 contemts of court at you?
I am starting to feel not so 'why me'.....your ex so similar...did you have the stalking/aggression years later too? These men ...are they ersonality twin or something?

You screamed back in court...legally...it was the best time good on you!

The aggression was channeled into the post divorce motions and refusal to abide by the dispute mediation clauses of our divorce decree. Plus no civility, nothing but grim and angry facial expressions whenever we are together (at handover time for the DCs), horrible emails with all sorts of baseless accusations ('Are you going to discuss these financial arrangements with the children or will I have to take out an injunction against you?') -- I still quake when I see he has sent me an email. exH is a lawyer so all of this is no skin off his nose, a sort of little hobby for him. I don't think he has ever stalked me, but I freaked out when I found it inexplicably difficult to log in on a former Yahoo account I had and so stopped going on a Yahoo forum that was immensely helpful to me a few years back.

Garlic - fair enough about the gender stereotyping, perhaps men are as insecure as women.

Interesting about personality disorders - your explanation makes sense to me. Using them as an underlying factor in an abuser can also be helpful because it helps you see that they do it, not because they want to bring you down, but because it's the only way they can survive social relationships. Bringing you down is the process by which they survive. And yet, because personality disorders are developed though time (unlike autism or aspergers which you are born with) there are very slight glimpses of hope that the disordered person can change.

Exactly, Barbie (your post 19:33). It's giving me the shivers all over again - things are still falling into place, 10 years later. Ugh.

Math, I fell for the "insecure & sensitive" con, too! I know of other women who've fallen for "safe & steady" or "powerful & popular" but ended up with the same man (figuratively speaking.) I suppose scheming nutjobs come in different flavours, like other folk.

You're so right about the money. I wasn't well off but I earned more than him; he started borrowing cash from me very early on, so I guess that was a suitability test. Most importantly, I suspect, it was far easier to get a mortgage and other loans as a married couple. I wasn't as clever as you, Math, he did shaft me royally on divorce - while making things look very much like he was 'taking care of me'. About a year later, he married a woman who owned a lovely house in an expensive part of town.