Why are men so inconsiderate

[Mum2boy]

I put ds down for a nap this afternoon and I wanted him to have a decent sleep, because he hasn't been sleeping all that well the last few nights and I knew he was tired. Anyway he'd been asleep for about 1/2 an hour when dh came home at around 1.00pm, and much to my irritation he went around the house making just about every conceivable noise, even though he knew ds was asleep. I didn't say anything for a minute and then when he started to get louder, I asked him if he could try to be a bit more quiet - which I thought was reasonable - and he started shouting at me right outside ds' bedroom, saying "I'M NOT GOING TO GO AROUND IN SILENCE JUST BECAUSE HE'S ASLEEP, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO BE QUIET IN MY OWN HOUSE" etc etc etc. I was so furious that he had yelled at me right outside ds' room, let alone that he didn't give a crp about waking ds up, that I called him a selfish d*khead and stormed out of the house for a couple of hours. Not the nicest thing in the world to say, but I cannot understand why he can't keep the noise down for 1 HOUR out of his entire day - I mean he doesn't even try. I just feel he's being so inconsiderate, after all it's me who would have to deal with ds being tired & cranky if he got woken up. I do just about everything for ds & if I want any help from dh, I have to ask for it.

Can anyone understand my feeling about this or is it really too much to ask? Perhaps if dh had to spend as much time taking care of ds as I do, he might think differently about what he does. I just can't stand men sometimes...

Interesting comment aloha, although it's perhaps for another thread - but in some families where childcare is shared, this happens. IMHO, for many women, alot of the sense of identity is bound up with being a mum, and if there is real sharing, the mum has to let go of the role of 'top parent', and yes, the kids sometimes reject mum in favour of dad (and vice versa). One thing I've heard is quite common is that children with strong relationships with both parents feel freer to express frustration and even hatred to individual parents - this is because they feel generally more secure in the family compared to kids who have a single strong attachment to one primary carer only. Those children being less likely to express, and more likely to repress negative feelings towards their primary carer because it's their only genuine source of emotional security and they don't feel safe enough to risk this. So you'd get kids who are more prepared to be angry with mum or dad because they know they've always got the other one to run to (this increases the need to present a united front on issues of discipline).

I've had this happen in my family - my wife did initially think that she wanted to be a primary carer, but I was not happy with this and argued for a shared arrangement. It has meant that our son will run to me as much as her and she's not top parent. But on the other hand, she's had enough time to be able to set up a successful business and pursue her dreams of singing professionally - something she couldn't have done if she'd been responsible for our boy on her own.

For those women who are scratching their heads wondering how to get their partners more involved I guess this won't mean much (maybe my mumsnet article will help here), but when you actually do put a proper shared arrangment in place, there are issues like this that come up - and there is a lot of strong anecdotal evidence about this....

Lethal, I'm not saying you feel like that, or that all women feel like that, but I know some women do! Indeed there have been posts on mumsnet saying exactly that - that women feel very upset and usurped when children 'reject' them for their father or even grandparents. I find it quite hard myself at times, I have to admit. I have even 'joked' with dh that he's stolen 'my' son. I want to share the 'burden' of parenting but still have the lion's share of love - not reasonable, I know, but a huge part of our conditioning and society's expectation of what a mother should be (esp compared to a father). I have always suspected that dh's ex really resented the fact that their daughter ran to her father and not her mother when she was hurt, because he did more hands on care than she did. They certainly didn't split up because he didn't help out. That's not to say that in general men don't do as much around the house or with their children as their partners. I remember a friend's husband calling out (which he watched the rugby) 'Debbie, your baby's crying'!!! Dh and I were both stunned.

Oh, and Tom, I'll decide if it's for another thread or not, thank you very much :0 (joke, joke, joke!)

Wierd dinasoar - maybe they just miss you, or maybe dad has primed them for your return ("now kids, when mum gets home, she'll be looking after you and I'll be having a break, right?!"

There's a pattern among SAHDs which is interesting - and is reflected in dual career couples. Men are often very good at stepping back and giving mum time with the kids if they percieve that mum feels she's not got enough time with them.

For example, research on dual career couples indicates that when both parents work full time, it's often the fathers relationship with the children that suffers, not the mothers. At the end of the working day, the dad steps back to let mum have time with the kids because he percieves her as feeling she needs to spend more time with them - and of course this means he loses out. Compare this to a couples where just the dad works, and often when he gets back home, it's HIS time with the kids - many dads in dual career couples don't get this because they step back to allow mum in.

I have heard of research (not sure where it's from though) that said that SAHDs were more effective at letting mum in at the end of their working day than SAHMs were with the dads. This is obviously because it's more common for working mums to feel they are missing out on the kids and as soon as they get back from work, want to get stuck in (because it's been part of the trad women's role for so long).

So my guess would be a combination of HIS desire to allow you in to the kids space when you get back from work (plus a bit of 'I need a break - there you go)) and YOUR desire to spend time with them has created a dynamic whereby the kids KNOW that when you get back from work, two things happen - 1 - you've got energy for them and 2 - dad steps back.

I'm guessing here....

Good point Tom. I work 3 days and DH works 5. On the 3 days I work I insist on doing bed/bath (although we've both been away for similar time). On Mondays and Fridays DH does not insist on doing it. This is the sort of thing you mean, I think.

Tom - can I have a rant based on my personal naffed-off-ness with dh? ALL MEN ARE BLOODY INCONSIDERATE B**TARDS WHEN THEIR PARTNERS ARE PREGNANT!!!!! They don't give up smoking or drinking, they'll get drunk in front of you, they refuse to read any books about birth, they don't show any interest in scans and they tell their mates how much more difficult it is for the man at the birth! And if you've married an ex dairy farmer you get compared to a cow all the bloody time!

But this is only my personal experience, I'm sure most other men are loving individuals who sacrifice their social lives to support their partners, who do their equal share of housework, who appreciate their partners and who are adonis's in bed!

Sorry Tom, I just couldn't help myself! I've tried not to post on this thread, really I have! But you seem to be lovely and you've helped me out a fair bit, so you're excluded!

Intersting points here. My ds3 has been a daddy boy since birth, even though we shared the care, I did the day, dh did the night shift.
Whenever ds3 sees him and vice versa I am out of the picture but I dont mind it at all. i think it is lovely.

Message withdrawn

Just wanted to point out that I looked at fathers direct website and on the point of sexism found that although not blatant there is an undercurrant of sexism.The advice and the threads seem very oriented to ex wives etc. being cruel bitches that use their children to get back at the male and that fathers rights are more hindered than a womans.There was a vote about wether men should be allowed leave for their childrens birthdays.My point on that is that if you want your childs birthday off then book it if poss or celebrate on a day when you are off.This is what my dp does and women everywhere have to do.Please think if you are going to accuse us of generalising sexist comments that your own website runs to the same rule not against as I felt was there when reading the threads and articles.Tom I think it's a good idea for a mainly mens website however as in the case of so many things please do not speak without first thinking as you could end up being perceieved as a hypocrite.

singingmum very good point as I have found fathers direct to be a bit like you say.
Tom dont get me wrong it is a brilliant informative site.

Singingmum - there are alot of very frustrated fathers out there who are very angry with their ex-wives for flouting contact orders etc. Yes - you get bitching about them on our forum. If you doubt how strong the feeling is, you just need to wait until next week, when a demonstration through central London with a tank and effigy of Tony Blair is planned by fathers demanding justice from the family courts.

Presumably the complaining on our forum is simlar to the complaining about partners on this site - I've already said that I don't have a problem with this - it's the generalisation and stereotyping I don't like - here or on our site.

But I challenge you to find any editorial on the site, or any comments from our staff which is sexist.

As for a poll asking whether dads should have a day off for their kids holiday - are you serious? You really have an objection to that?

Tom hope it all goes well with the demonstration. I agree with you that there are alot of fathers out there who get treated unfairly but there are others who just dont want to know.It is just how life is unfortunately.
Women can be like this too!!!!!

I also visited the fathers site as I thought maybe it would be the mens equivalent of mumsnet - didnt feel welcome there as it is 'by fathers for fathers' and also seemed to be very political in agenda. Calling women 'bitches' sounds pretty sexist to me but maybe i am over sensitive.So won't be visiting again - but it did make me think Tom was a hypocrite - being so militant in his views that mumsnet is for everyone but running a site which is unfriendly to most women - I think the idea of fathers taking a day off work for their kids birthday is riducolous as well by the way -I wuold like a day off when its my kids birthday, but oh no, I still have to work (I am a SAHM).

Message withdrawn

I'm not going on the demo (I'm presenting on fathers and children to a group of MPs at the time) - and it's not Fathers Direct who are organising it - it's Fathers-4-Justice

Most people don't give a toss about those issues until they find themselves suddenly prevented from seeing their children (can you imagine how much that hurts). I do have alot of sympathy with them as it's clear the law is not working, but I don't like the anti-women edge to some of the campaigns.

Twinkie - I think your experience is very common for non-resident parents - I guess it's because 96% of residence orders are given to the mother that it is percieved as a fathers rights issue, rather than a non-resident parent's rights issue. The Equal Parenting Council is quite good on this, and Families Need Fathers does support non-resident mothers as well (and they have alot of expertise in this area)

Can I emphasise again - this is NOT a Fathers Direct demo, and we have nothing to do with it. It is being organised by Fathers-4-Justice (www.fathers-4-justice.org) OK?

I never said that I objected about dads having a day off but when put in context shouldn't that be 'Should parents have a day of for their childrens birthday'.Please do not twist my words and re-read what I have already written.As for men marching for justice I believe that a father has as much right as a mother.I object though to a recent case which I know of where a man took visitation of his daughter to revenge himself against my friend even though he left her after a while of mental abuse and doing things like giving her children from a previous relationship untoward punishments like making them stand with arms above heads till crying in pain and cold showers on wintersd days in scotland for wetting the bed.He also was the one to leave and cheat.If a woman does the same then I honestly believe that she like him should lose all contact with child.
As for the way in which you have answered I believe you may not have fully read a previous thread I started about perfect partners as my partner deserves all the praise I can give he is wonderful and I could not live without him.
The info I refer to as being rather sexist is the pushing you do on the fathers rights.Much of it is written in a way that is quite degrading to certain women who have real reasons to stop their ex's contact.Do not generalise all women as I said before as to come on here and accuse mumsnet members of doing this could be seen as hypocritical don't you think.

Message withdrawn

Erm Tom as for the most people dont give a toss about those sort of issues may I just say there are both sides to a coin.

There are alot of men out there getting treated unfairly.
There are also men out there who dont give a shit about their children-do you know how much that hurts.
Twinkie is right in will this demonstration represent the women who are stopped from having their children.Ok I know it is from fathers 4 justice but this should be thought of too. If there is sexism in this world I think it comes from both males and females.

Twinkie one point I disagree with is there are mothers out there who are drug addicts and are very good parents.Not all I agree.

kittensoft - Fathers Direct is a site for fathers. Women are welcome, but the audience is fathers, and the reason for this is because most parents sites do not cater very well for fathers - which parents sites have articles from a fathers point of view (on subjects like, for example, helping your partner stay healthy through pregnancy, how to support her during the birth, etc etc). Most "parents" sites address mainly mothers subconsciously and have small sections for fathers.

So Fathers Direct is NOT aimed at "Parents" like Mumsnet or UK PArents - it's aimed at Fathers.

It is a political site, because we are an organisation involved in numerous political issues, areas such as Education, Family Services, Child Poverty, Child protection, Maternity services, Criminal Justice, Domestic Violence, Family Courts, men's health, gender equality, the labour market etc etc. I'm not sure how helpful it is to compare with mumsnet, as we are a different kind of organisation.

I'd love to see where anyone has called women bitches on our site, by the way... could someone give me a URL? I've done searches on our main systems and can't find anything.

I really can't believe there's a serious objection to the poll, but I'm gonna change it anyway...

Kittensoft would you really wish not to spend your kid's birthdays with them? I work 3 days and so far DS's two birthdays have fallen on workdays and I have booked a day's leave to spend the day with him. His birthday is February so no other reason to do it. However my DH has not done this although he has made sure that he was home early (4 ish IIRC). So the idea would acutally benefit me because I would not be using a day of my (already limited due to leave being pro-rata'd down but bank hols not being pro-rata'd up) leave.

Singingmum - could you refer me to the specific piece of writing you are talking about - it's hard to respond otherwise.

Twinkie - I'm not going to present on non-resident fathers - sorry. But if I did, my starting point would be childrens rights to see both their parents (in the absence of serious reasons not to - abuse/violence etc) and to develop a system that took the care of children post-sepatation out of a model that promoted conflict.

But like I said, I'm not presenting on non-resident parents - we are not the lead organisation on this subject.