Why are men so inconsiderate

[Mum2boy]

I put ds down for a nap this afternoon and I wanted him to have a decent sleep, because he hasn't been sleeping all that well the last few nights and I knew he was tired. Anyway he'd been asleep for about 1/2 an hour when dh came home at around 1.00pm, and much to my irritation he went around the house making just about every conceivable noise, even though he knew ds was asleep. I didn't say anything for a minute and then when he started to get louder, I asked him if he could try to be a bit more quiet - which I thought was reasonable - and he started shouting at me right outside ds' bedroom, saying "I'M NOT GOING TO GO AROUND IN SILENCE JUST BECAUSE HE'S ASLEEP, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO BE QUIET IN MY OWN HOUSE" etc etc etc. I was so furious that he had yelled at me right outside ds' room, let alone that he didn't give a crp about waking ds up, that I called him a selfish d*khead and stormed out of the house for a couple of hours. Not the nicest thing in the world to say, but I cannot understand why he can't keep the noise down for 1 HOUR out of his entire day - I mean he doesn't even try. I just feel he's being so inconsiderate, after all it's me who would have to deal with ds being tired & cranky if he got woken up. I do just about everything for ds & if I want any help from dh, I have to ask for it.

Can anyone understand my feeling about this or is it really too much to ask? Perhaps if dh had to spend as much time taking care of ds as I do, he might think differently about what he does. I just can't stand men sometimes...

Crunchie, I can see it has all been sorted now, its very hard to keep up with all the thread changing though, especially if you don't log in every day.

Crunchie, the reason Tom started the second thread was because he was so angry about the first one that he refused to give any sensible input to the original post, until the title of the thread had been changed. So he changed it himself.

If you'll read his post below where it says, "Then start a new thread asking "why are some people so inconsiderate" and post the same message on it... otherwise I WILL get pissed off with the generalisation about my gender. Post a new topic and we can let this one die." Since when was Tom put in charge of deciding that other people's threads should die? I actually felt incensed on Mum2boy's behalf.

Anyway, as people are getting very tired of this issue, I won't keep going on about it so let's try to leave it there. Tom - I'm sorry if you feel that I keep putting the boot in, but I was so d**m angry about some of your comments and I just hope you can understand why.

Sorry lethal I hadn't spotted that the title of the conversation changed, doh!

However I can see his point too

Message withdrawn

Thanks for that bit of male support, dadslib.

The Mars and Venus thing is very true, isn't it.

Message withdrawn

I'm not sure whether I should do this - I've resisted responding so far, but as some won't let things lie and keep hurling verbal bricks my way, I'll post again...sorry.

In this first thread, I DID make constructive comments - if you look down to 11 October, 2003 10:06:23 AM, you'll find I addressed Mum2Boy's original issue by suggesting that she leave her partner in charge occasionally so that he could get some understanding of how she felt. I then transferred that response over to a new thread because I was hacked off with the title of this one AND to give the issue room to breathe, because it had become subsumed by the issue I raised on this. But this response is on both threads.

This attempt to be constructive was dismissed by Mum2Boy on 11 October, 2003 10:06:23 AM below as I was an "arrogant 'know-it-all'". However, when Droile posted on 13 October, 2003 3:15:34 PM that she resolved this by leaving her partner in charge, Mum2Boy posted back at 14 October, 2003 12:26:36 AM to say how helpful this post was, despite it being pretty much the same tactic as what I had proposed. It didn't bother pointing this out, but several people have accused me of making no attempt to be constructive, so I'd like to point this out now. I'd also refer people to my article on mumsnet in the 'big issues' section, as this may help too.

I apologised to Mum2Boy and explained my reasons for reposting the subject on the 'is mumsnet sexist' thread at 11 October, 2003 5:23:01 PM , but this is clearly not good enough for some, who are 'incensed' that I had started a new thread. I am now reposting this on here, just so people can see what I wrote.

No one has 'put me in charge', nor do I think anyone has - as non-admin users on this board, we all have equivalent posting rights. This is an OPEN forum on the web - anyone can come here - those who would like men to bugger off are in fantasy land - I can't remember, in 12 years of using the internet, any other place whose users have though that they could somehow restrict who visits an open website - bizarre! If I made a bad move by posting a new thread, so be it... je ne regrette rien.

I STILL object to the title of this thread - I am accused of being inconsiderate because of my gender - I don't like that, as much as anyone would object to people being slagged off because of their race or nationality - I really don't mind if people think that's childish or irrelevant, it's just how I feel. I didn't expect the spanish inquisition though. Sure some men can be inconsiderate, so can some women. But I find the general misandry of some users on this site distasteful, and some of the responses to this issue have reinforced this view.

I really don't want to perpetuate this, although I realise that by posting this I probably will do. Ho hum.

Oh - and of course Fathers Direct is open to women! It's an open forum on the web Our strapline should give you a clue about our attitude to women: "The best thing to happen to fatherhood since Eve entered paradise!"

My apology...
originally posted 11 October, 2003 5:23:01 PM
_
Finally, I'd like to apologise to Mum2boy - I am like a bear with a sore head at the moment. I won't go into why, because it's very easy to identify who I am and for things to come back to me irl, but your generalisation about men epitomised the hostility men can experience here and I saw it when I felt my wife was being very inconsiderate to me. So you pressed all my buttons and I reacted. Reposting it was an attempt to create a space where your issue was discussed, as it became pretty clear that my post had hijacked the thread, and I tried to make a helpful comment, but that clearly irritated you further. But others have interpreted that as arrogrant on my part... it wasn't meant like that - it was an attempt to separate the issues - meant well, but perhaps mistaken.
_

No - our old forum software was rubbish and didn't allow conversation to flow - we replaced it with new software a couple of months ago and started with a blank forum with no discussion - it's started again and is better, but it's at the 'dipping the toes in the water stage'.

I've read this thread a but over the last few days and don't particularly have all that many opinions on the 'was it out of order/wasn't it' bit. However I am stunned at some attitudes towards men. Personally whilst nowadays I am generally surrounded by women I have always found me far easier to get on with than women (and yes we did have some major in depth chats). I had to stop living with women and move into a house of men becuase I just couldn't cope with the girly stuff. I don't really mind who I discuss a problem with, if I get on with them I really don't care which gender they are.
Just mentally thinking through my list of close freinds- and there are more men than women- these are people I would be able to discuss a personal problem with. So I hope the men stay. I actually see their gender as pretty irrelevent (even though I made a sweeping generalisation about men earlier today on mumsnet- one which is usually true btw although there are exceptions).

would help if I didn;t miss out words- easier to get on with men than women

Not sure whether I accept Eve as a shining example of how men value women...

Tom , a dignified response as always.

My dh has suggested (in heated moments) that amongst the less attractive female traits are being petty, illogical, unable to follow an argument , and never letting things lie. I have always refuted such nonsense thinking.
Just hope he doesn't read some of the recent stuff here ....

I think that when we are ranting, some of us can come across as anti-men, because we are so upset by our partners that we are semi-coherant.

I'm not anti-men, I'm just anti DH, at times.
Lots of other, similar men get me cross too, and it'll be a pain to have to stick the proviso 'some men' in front of future rants, but I suppose if it saves offending the much-valued male posters, I'll try to do it. However, the very fact that you are thoughtful enough to post on mumsnet automatically excludes you from the Bar-stewards we rant about, doesn't it? I'd have thought so.

Tom, to be pedantic, we may have made the same point (letting men do more childcare, thus experiencing the pitfalls), but we made it in a very different way. I said it in a co-conspiratorial, fellow-sufferer kind of way. You said it in a way that may have been interpreted as preachy, as the equivalent of saying 'well, if you will do everything for men, then what can you expect'. Which I know wasn't your intention, and wasn't what you said, but might have been the reason that your advice got a different response.
It not necessarily anything to do with gender, either. I've had many an argument with an older generation of women who don't understanding why us mums of today are whingeing.

I'm not getting at you again - I'm just pointing out that you may have hit a raw nerve, because I am often accused of not 'making' DH do his share, and it's a case of knowing how to lead a horse to water, but getting stuck thereafter.

And if you have understood a word of that, you're doing well.

Droile, re your comment "I'm not anti men, just anti dh at times"

I have in the past hour sent an email to another mumsnetter friend saying exactly this

I want more men.... and women don't like it then they should bugger off

Some of these posts are so rude and childish!

From what I can gather, please excuse me if wrong, mum2boy had accepted Tom's apology a few days ago. I think an apology was due, as Tom did himself. As long as Mum2boy is ok about it, that's what matters, IMO. I am glad to see she got lots of good advice on this thread about her problem.

Agree with Tom that mumsnet is sexist at times I would like to see more thoughtful male points of view here.

Small point, but it occured to me that lots of common terminology on mumsnet, as elsewhere, can be a bit 'something..ist' and no one challenges it. We refer to 'the terrible twos' - an unfair age label for 2 year olds perhaps? and what about a 'Gina Ford baby' what exactly is that then? Ahh no the Gina word - sorry!

Pupuce... (here I go again) Tom may not have incited such 'rudeness and childishness' (as you put it) if his response had not been so nasty in the first place. I would say the most childish thing that has happened here, was Tom's refusal to add anything constructive until the title of the thread had changed. Quote: "So Mum2boy - just post a new topic and you won't hear from me about it again." Being 'instructed' to start your own thread is pretty b*dy rude if you ask me. But if you wish to defend his actions pupuce and call the rest of us 'rude', well that's up to you but I'm afraid I can't agree.

Anyway I'm repeating myself now, but I was hoping when I last posted that this could be forgotten about. I tried to make peace with Tom a few posts ago so that this could put to rest, but I don't even know whether he has noticed or not. Perhaps everyone else could let it lie now?

(BTW Droile - I agree with your last post & thought you explained it very well.)

That should've been "re-start your own thread"..

Jasper, can I just point out that perhaps some of the 'less attractive traits' of the male species have also been on display here... but I won't say what they are, lest I get severely chastised again for doing so.

Do you think your dh was 'generalising' when he made those comments about women?? Kinda sounds like it to me, which goes to show that both genders appear to hold certain beliefs about each other, whether they're correct or not.

Tom I accept your apology, but I wonder why you keep using this site if you are "fed up with the man-bashing" and that "the whole place is devalued by the way it is used to slag off men", which you said in one of your posts below. Obviously where you get a whole bunch of women discussing a multitude of subjects, you're going to get some level of whinging & moaning about the opposite sex. It's just a fact!!!, and this happens to be an outlet for a lot of women who feel angry/hurt/upset with their partners and the way they are sometimes treated. This is mostly a female forum as you know, so I didn't exactly think about whether a man was going to take offence to what I wrote, when I posted the other day. I have since thought about whether I would've reacted the same way as you did if the shoe was on the other foot, and I really don't think I would've - I might have felt a tiny bit 'peeved' at the generalisation, but I would've understood that being a male forum, things like that are bound to be said and as far as I'm concerned, there's no use taking offence.

Anyway that's it, I may as well stop there I hope we don't have to keep going through the same stuff further down the track... hopefully this thread might have resolved a few things.

Er, but he did post advice on this thread without the title being changed! And I agree - the more men have hands on, unsupervised time with their child the better fathers they are. I was lucky, my dh had already been a single parent to his young daughter before I met him. I knew exactly what sort of parent he'd be to our future child because I could see how committed he was to his daughter. And he's been all that and more. We take turns to get up early with him (he's done the last four mornings because I've been feeling rough) he takes time off work to care for him, he is very, very happy to have whole days just him and ds. Baths him every night and puts him to bed most nights - it's all totally shared. The disadvantage? well, Ds loves his daddy as much as his mummy, and will quite often insist 'daddy read it' or 'daddy do it' instead of me. I wonder if that's something not all mothers are prepared to accept as part of the shared parenting deal.
Anyway - I like Tom and want him to stay. I think he admits he had a strong response to the thread title, which I can understand, even if I also think it was a bit OTT.

aloha (sigh)... then why the need to start a new thread if he was going to post on this one anyway...

As far as saying that your "Ds loves his daddy as much as his mummy, and will quite often insist 'daddy read it' or 'daddy do it' instead of me. I wonder if that's something not all mothers are prepared to accept as part of the shared parenting deal." ??? I thought that parenting was supposed to include both parents!! It would certainly help to lift some of the responsibility off the mother's shoulders, to not be the only one doing everything for the child all the time. I certainly would not have a problem with my child wanting to be with my husband as much as me, and I'm not sure why you think that "not all women want to accept this as part of the deal". I would think that most problems between partners are caused by the fact that men DON'T have enough to do with their children, and that many of them seem to resist helping out at home. (Which is the kind of thing that has been posted on this site previously by a number of women - notice I'm being very careful with what I say about men). I can't say I've ever even thought or felt that kind of thing, aloha.