Is this domestic violence?

[isthisDV]

Please be gentle with me.

My 25 yr old son still lives at home with me and DH. He is looking for a flat in a city nearby but will not consider renting more locally to us due to commuting costs on top of rental costs. He is not paying us anything. I wanted him to, but DH said if he could save it would make it quicker for him to leave . My suggestion was that he contributed to chores instead. DS ignores me asking and DH never asks or follows through.

DS and me have always argued but it's not getting any better.

When we row, usually over me not having the kind of food in the house he wants, ( yeah, I know) he becomes abusive. Yesterday he ate a sticky toffee pudding for breakfast ( had a friend staying over), fish cakes for lunch ( bought for him) and at 4pm started moaning there was "nothing to eat" in house. ( cupboards full of beans, pasta, pasta sauces, eggs etc etc.) and dinner due at 7pm anyway.

He slammed the kitchen door in my face and would not let me in ( he's 12 stone and athletic- does weights- I am 8 st.) he then belittles me saying I am a fool etc etc.

On other occasions he has followed me round the house when i try to walk away from arguments and sticks his foot in the doorway so I can't close it on him, or he intentionally fills the doorway with his bulk so I have to squeeze past him, or ask him to move.

He is then very good at trying to drive a wedge between me and DH by saying "She ( that's me) said xyz...isn't she a fool etc etc." And he simply denies his part in any rows saying it was me who started them, me being unrreasonable etc etc.

DH tells him he's in the wrong, but 2 hours later they are chatting like old mates and I am still sitting fuming or crying upstairs.

I have asked DH numerous times to give DS an ultimatum to leave and live anywhere. He refuses saying it is unworkable in practice- if he gives a deadline and DS has not found anywhere- then what? He will not put him out on the streets. I don't want that either but I can't carry on like this .

I can't see the wood for the trees but my over riding feeling is that DH is not giving me the support he should.

I think the OP would feel like she was on holiday, if she moved out.

The DH would feel like he'd made a moral stance.

The DS would feel like he'd won a battle.

Then the DS would look around for another victim. The DH feels now that he's not picked on because he's loved more - he will soon learn that he's not loved any more than the OP is - he will be next in the firing line.

I am 99.9999% sure DS does not take steroids as he is into fitness etc and has discussed the dangers of steriods etc.

Mumblethanks for that info. I was told that everything would be split 50/50 but that possibly I might get a bit more of the capital. I think I am too old now to get a mortgage anyway. Sme probably goes for DH. Both of us would have max. 10 yrs before retirement even if we worled beyond current pension ages.

Yes, my earnings are lower due to time out raising a family. DH used to travel a lot so I was the stay at home parent, but have worked p/t since DD was 4 yrs old- over 18 years now. I did support him and his career which is why he earns what he does and I not a lot. The work I did do when employed is not well paid anyway so even fulltime work would not see me much better off than I am now.

The saviings I have are a combination of child benefit which we saved mainly, and my earnings i ( so I can do my tax etc and keep track of my income.) Some has been syphoned off into our joint account to pay for things outright - carpets, furniture etc- but the rest stays in my savings. This is mainly as DH is a higher tax payer but also because I feel I wanted some money of my "own" for a rainy day- maybe not fair but that's how it is.

I would also be able to claim half of DH's pension which is quite generous. The solicitor I saw suggested taking a bigger lump sum in lieu of that but I can't see the point- if I were to llive to 90, what would I live on? If I were to forgo my half of the pension, say over 20 years, that would equal my staying put in this house ...and more!

I hate talking like this..............

No! Talking like this is good. I bet starting to be pro-active feels better than lying down in the doorway with 'Welcome!' stamped across your chest

could you just take an extended holiday somewhere? a month in spain?

tell DH that you want DS out before you come back?

presumably whatever your business august is quiet month? so take off somewhere....

they need to know you serious -only actions will show them that

OP, I know it's far too early in the morning for sensible people, but I've been reading through and really feel for you. Did you give your husband the letter?

Thanks

No I didn't give him the letter because I was too exhausted.

DH came in at around 7pm from work and said he wanted to talk. That was good- but I said I was too tired to. I looked and felt exhausted, having discussed it all here all day.

I have totally mixed feelings; part of me thinks why should I move out of my lovely home ( and I'd have to furnish it as there is not enough here to take) and leave them here in their home comforts. Another part of me thinks just do what makes life easier ( for me) in the short term.

A few months back I suggested to DH that he moved out with DS and he said he didn't want to live with DS!

If you knew DH- and I am not defending him- you would see that he is a very kind person in many ways and always means well- that is what makes it so hard. I cam see from his face (worn and tired) that he is going though hell too, is struggling to cope with a demanding job with all this going on, but there is this gap between what he ought to say/be assertive and what he does.

He hates confrontation- that's one thing we have discussed and he agrees- so a lot of his behaviour is around avoiding that at all costs.

So he tends to react to situations when provoked, but then for the rest of the time he buries his head in the sand, it blows over till the next time, thinking it will all be okay, given a bit more time.

Does that make sense?

I know that if I were to leave it would be another stick that DS could beat me with - you can almost hear it "You left my dad!" as he always runs to defend him from me.

DS has also said in his less-angry moments that he fnds it hurtful that I/we are constantly telling him to go, and if I detach myself I can see that it must be horrible to think your parents don't want you, so the motivation for change can't be there.

I can see that as underneath his anger I think he has always been crying out for attention and love- but going about it the wrong way- ie as a child he was naughty - in order to get my attention away from his sister. What he did get was rejection.

I like the idea of an extended holiday and I did that at Easter- had 10 days away on my own.

Thanks for all your help.

Okay, poor DS, etc. But you're not doing him any favours by allowing this situation to carry on.

So what if he says, 'You left my dad'? Tell him you felt driven out by your own son's bullying and threatening behaviour.

Go on that holiday at least! Get some counselling. I can't bear the thought of you lying down again to have your son walk all over you while your DH stands by just...watching.

I think couples couselling for you and your husband would be hugely helpful. It sounds like you still love each other but are exhausted by the conflict created around your son and you feeling your husband isn't supporting you. I think it could really help.. do think about it.

I am around the same age as your son and I am so sorry that he is treating you so badly!

Please don't take the "pity route" with him. I work in the area of mental health and your situation reminded me of a child I recently assessed. He had severe behaviour problems and was in the process of being referred to a specialist school for dealing with children with such problems. He was pushing me and pushing me, constantly trying to bargain with/ manipulate me so that we would do what he wanted instead of the assessment that I needed to do. Initially, in the interests of building rapport, I would go along with what he asked for - e.g., "just one more game" and then we could return to the assessment - but then he would want "just one more game" after that, etc. I was really resenting the assessment process and was feeling exhausted. Then suddenly I realised - this child has no motivation whatsoever to complete this assessment and he will always be employing every tactic he can to get out of it, if I let him continue to interact with me like this. There will never be a "magic moment" when a lightbulb goes off and he decides to cooperate. So I became firm, bossy and inflexible and yes, he probably didn't have as much fun but I got the rest of the assessment done quickly, which will benefit him in the long run.

SO I'm sure the analogy is quite clear but - your son is like this child. He is behaving very badly and constantly pushing you and your husband, crossing the boundaries, but for whatever reason you are both trying to tolerate it to "keep the peace" and avoid damaging the relationship. You both seem in hope of something, that one day your son will "see the light", move out, and become a kind and responsible adult. However, actually your son is showing NO INDICATION that he is motivated to become a kind and responsible adult - he seems focused on instant gratification, having more money and having someone do his chores for him (you say you don't do that much but I am sure that he is getting a lot more done for him living with his parents than if he were living independently). He has heaps of money saved and there is NOTHING stopping him from moving out, he is being ridiculous setting his standards so high about the residence/ location - if he wanted to be independent he easily could be. He may just be "saving face" by pretending that he is looking for properties in another area because he has it so good living with you, but it's embarrassing to admit to his peers (and his parents) that he doesn't want to move out. The only way you are going to be able to move past this situation is by setting firm boundaries and rules and kicking him out ASAP. He shows NO signs of moving towards independence despite what you are hoping. He is also behaving like a selfish, unrealistic and entitled bully (I'm sorry for sounding mean). Please don't be like me with my client with behaviour problems - trying to appease him by going along with what he wants, hoping that in the end it will sort itself out. In the short-term your son may be happier, but in the long-term it will do him NO GOOD.

Also - your son has shown so much anger, violence, and manipulativeness in his interactions with you. I would not be taking to heart his "poor me" spiel about being so hurt that you're telling him to go - he's still living with you! It can't be that bad! When he was little and acted up for attention - you say he didn't get the reaction he wanted and instead got rejection - that can't be right because he kept on doing it! He must have gotten reinforcement in some way.

I have no doubt you and your husband are very kind people - the problem is you are not going to succeed here by being kind. "You have to be cruel to be kind" in this scenario, by taking drastic action and forcing independence on your son. I have an extremely kind and selfless relative who has a 32-year-old son that still lives at home, jobless, spending all his day playing computer games and having screaming matches with his unemployed live-in girlfriend who he met on the internet. My relative also does nothing because she fears "kicking him out on the street" and "making him homeless". We can all see that the only thing perpetuating this situation and preventing her son from making any progress or maturing in any way is the fact that he is allowed to continue to live at home.

I think your son needs to learn some self-awareness. It's all very well for him to feel "hurt" that you want him out, but he can't see that it's because he's being such a bumhole to you that you want him gone.
He's 25, he needs to cut out the self pity, grow some cojones and stand on his own two feet.
Pigglesworth is dead right, "cruel to be kind" is the way to go. He's manipulating you and your husband way too much, and needs to know that he has reached his limit.

So sorry you are going through this OP, it sounds dreadful and I'm not sure who I'm most angry at your DS or your DH!

I think that wanting to avoid confontation at all costs and meaning well are not necessarily the same thing. I am not at all convinced that your DH means well so much as he means to take the path of least resistance. It sounds very much that there is a conversation still to be had between the two of you, with you having been too tired last night.

I think unfortunately that the best solution for you emotionally may well be moving out and moving on but the best solution financially is probably to stay put and try to get DH/DS out. Only you really know which is the most critical to you.

If the house is in joint names I believe you can force a sale and there are probably means to do so even if not in joint names. Would you be able to cope with taking that step and remain living with DH and DS while the sale process is taking its long and cumbersome road?

Thanks ladies, I appreciate the on going responses.

Now to answer...

My son was away at uni for 4 years. When he came back, we assumed it would be for 3 months, 6 months, but not much longer. He had temp jobs for 2 years which didn't pay enought to enable him to move out ( truly!!).
We llive SE and a room is £500 or more.

He very much wants to go- no doubt over that at all. He has paid for pre-alerts of accommodation with a site so that he gets info before it goes live.

With hindsight, we should have made him go- locally. DH now, I think, feels DS is close to finding the right flat in the right location, so he is not insisting he goes and commits to 6 months in a flat/house share in a location he doesn't want.

I could JUST about go along with that IF DS behaved with civility , some gratitude and pulled his weight around the house.

Last week we had a discussion (DS and me) over money and his lack of contribution. I was appalled that he said he was not contributing because "We didn't need it". This was based on his ideas that his generation will never be able to buy a home ( even on 2 incomes) that he has no pension, that he has £13K debt etc etc. There was a MN thread about this in AIBU last week from another 20-something.

Be that as it may but we have been extremely generous with him, funding lots of stuff at uni etc.

Yes, we "afforded" it but we have a big mortgage, and although we are comfortable, we live simply as we have funded 2 kids through uni for a total of 7 years. We are also helping out our DD who does not have a "proper job" post graduating- and she is really grateful for any penny we give her. She feeds herself on £15 a week to avoid asking us for more money!!!!

Anyway, I just feel sickened by DS's attitude. He might be right in economic terms, but morally I think he is wrong. I have never had a penny from my parents- they are quite poor, as are DHs- so everything DH and I have, we have worked for after studying for years and making do.

Some days there seems to be hope-a few days back he offered to help get stuff out of my car- i think this came down to the fact that his best mate's mum ( my age) has been diagnosed with cancer, so maybe it made him think a bit.

Other days he is obnoxious.

Yes, DH takes the path of least resistance. The only thing that has kept me here and with him is that I know he really loves me, and he says he never ever wants us to split ( apart from his outburst 2 days ago.)

I don't know what will happen. DS could find the perfect flat this weekend. But if he does, can I forgive DH for not being what I see as strong enough and instiling some moral values into DS? I feel as if I am the only one banging on about it in the family.

I've made some enquiries today over hosues etc for me to rent and had a drive around to look at a few from the outside.

"My son was away at uni for 4 years. When he came back, we assumed it would be for 3 months, 6 months, but not much longer".

Was there any actual discussion with all of you being present before he returned about how long he would remain at home for?. From the "we assumed it would be for 3 months, 6 months but not much longer" I can only assume no such discussions took place. Also I daresay there were no rules or a contract drawn up regarding what was to be expected from each other.

If I am right, my ILs made the same errors. The emotional cost and fallout has been huge.

I would also agree with the content of Pigglesworth's post; the last paragraph in particular is something I can relate to.

No there was no discussion about it. I wanted him to pay us something from the start- DH vetoed it saying DS would be better off saving up .

I didn't make the same mistake with DD- I said she could not come back as this local area is hopeless for jobs, you need a car as we are rural, and she would be better off satying in her uni city even if it meant us helping her a bit with money.

I can see every thing Piggles says in her post, but the difference is that DS does want to go- he is unhappy here. Wheh he told me this at weekend, I said he could not be that unhappy as he was still here. He said he had no choice. I said that was rubbish as I/we/he could find a room or flat locally that day.

He is determined to stay until the right place comes up in X, and DH is content to live with all of this.....

Going round in cirlces.

I am really sorry you're going through this, it's sounds like absolute hell. I can't really offer any great insight or practical advice but I can confirm one thing - if he gets aggressive (doesn't have to be physical) phone the police. What he says about your word against his is not right - in the majority of constabularies it is force policy that in any 'domestic' situation the aggresor is removed from the property. By that I don't mean arrested (unless physical violence of course) but they are told in no uncertain terms to find somewhere else to stay for a few days, friends family etc. and they're not allowed back.
It might also do him some good to have a burly police officer telling him clearly that his behaviour is totally unacceptable and show him that people will stand up to him. It may just provide the kick up the proverbial he needs!

OK.

DV - more than likely
ADHD - diagnosed but dealt with? is he on medication?
DH - he sounds as though he is trying his 'best' like most blokes, but it must be very hard for him to kick his son out of the house, especially when he has ADHD.

DS - his behaviour is abusive, is not acceptable and should have been limited long ago. For some reason you have not been able to do this in the past. This may or may not have to do with your DH and the way he treats you, or indeed as you've said the way think you have behaved. I say think, because you may just have been forced into a feeling of guilt. Or it may be because he has ADHD and does not empathise.

YOU - have, somehow, over the years, lost your bond with DS. Try to disengage from his actions (before he does the blocking in doorways stuff - that's out of order). If he has ADHD he may be on the autistic spectrum - if he has little empathy as ASD children do, this will exacerbate his abusive behaviour and make it difficult for him to change. I think it is tragic when a mother's bond with her child is broken, but I do honestly believe that it can be fixed.

Your son needs you to be firm, partly to protect yourself, and partly to protect him from a dysfunctional future, ane from the guilt he will undoubtably feel later on.

I think you really need help. Get some counselling for yourself and try to read up more about abusive behaviour. Beverly Engel's book "The emotionally abusive relationship" is good. Once you have understood this fully, you may be able to help your son before his behaviour extends to other people around him.

When I was 21 my Dad kicked me out. It was the done thing in those days, it didn't traumatise me (except for a couple of days) but it was the right thing for all of us. And I was the good girl in the family! I was fine. Your son will be fine too. But only you can decide whether you do that now or wait until you have sought advice and counselling.

"DS could find the perfect flat this weekend"

Why does it have to be perfect? I moved out of home when I 22 and the house I shared was far from perfet. There was no heating. Ice on the inside of the windows in winter. No garden. No parking. I filled it with second hand mismatched furniture and rented a television!

This is how most people my age started their independent adult lives and it was fine. Taught us to work hard and save up for what we wanted.

Also, whilst I lived at home I paid rent to my parents. I didn't know it at the time but they put it in a savings account and when I left home they gave it all back to me as a gift. I didn't expect this but was so grateful for their generosity. Your DH would probably agree to do this for your son as it would help him save and at the same time make him pay rent.

Your DH might also benefit from assertiveness training. He just needs to see that it really is cruel to be kind. Part of being a good parent is giving you child wings.

I do hope that you can get through to your DH as I think this is key to getting your son started as an independent adult which, of course, it what you all want.

Op maybe you need to be more assertive- stop expecting oh to sort son out, try do it together? Your current approach isnt doing the trick

If you've never been bullied, it's difficult to understand how helpless and vulnerable you feel when it's happening. For the bully to be someone who should at best love you and at worst bugger off and only visit at Christmas, it's infinitely more hurtful.

Your husband, OP, just doesn't seem to get it. Because he's not bullied, he can't identify with you. He thinks you over-react, doesn't he? This is why I think you should go. He is watching you being bullied and being disrespected and being hurt and he tells YOU to modify your own behaviour. It's not just that when push comes to shove, he's not there for you. You are being pushed, you are being shoved and he is backing up the person who is doing it. The fact it's your own child is worse; how can your son ever learn how to behave when his own father is backing his aggression towards his own mother? I'd find it hard to forgive once, but repeatedly? No, your husband isn't good enough for you.

Maybe you can't imagine now how you'd feel if you left. I can tell you - you will feel at peace. You won't have to watch what you say or do. You won't have to worry about who's in the house when you get home. You won't have to explain why you don't want to live with abuse. You will feel free and happy.

Oh and whilst you have some of the joint money, give your daughter a bit of money - sounds like your son has benefited enormously financially (just in terms of not paying rent, never mind his Masters money) - I imagine your daughter feels hurt that he behaves badly and is financially rewarded and yet she is lovely and has to eat on £15 per week.

Totally what Imperial says. Great post.

Yep, agree with Imperial - seems the squeaky wheel(ds) gets all the grease while your dd could do with some, OP.

Dh and I had a long and tearful chat tonight. He is eating tonnes of humble pie and is desperate to try to make things better/work.

He admits he underestimates the hurt I've suffered and says he was only trying to keep the peace and not lose his son in the process.

Yes, he can see why it went wrong by doing that.

He told me he has been in touch with a counsellor provided at work to talk about it all as he is so upset and just coping at work. He had a short tel. chat and may take up counselling.

This is not a case of crocdile tears- he is genuine if nothing else.

His problem is that he cannot express emotion.

Tonight we agreed not to talk to DS about it- until the weekend when none of us has work the next day.

Since then he has spoken to DS twice, briefly, after agreeing with me it was not a good idea tonight. I despair.

In spite of all this, I do love DS. Not in a sun shines out his backside whatever way- but he is my son and I have been a crap mother a lot of the time as I have a short fuse.

DS told DH he does not want to talk about any of it as it's all too late- by that he means our relationship(s).

This breaks my heart.

I don't know if I can forgive DH although he is absolutely 100% sure he wants me and our marriage.

This is what I need to work on in my own head.

I feel so sad for you! This us awful. I think maybe you should see if your marriage could work once DS has gone. You talk fondly of your DH which is good and may mean you can salvage your marriage. If not then you can say you tried.

DS needs to go first!

'DS told DH he does not want to talk about any of it as it's all too late- by that he means our relationship(s).'

God, he knows all the right buttons to push, doesn't he.

Please you nand your DH need to see how he's manipulating you.