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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Should I be able to leave England

115 replies

TrappedinEngland · 03/07/2011 16:05

6 years ago I came to this country encouraged by my partner. We had a daughter who is now 4. I am desperately missing my own country and my family. Partner is refusing to let me go with our child and has threatened to take me to court if I do not leave our daughter in this country. I am at a loss what to do and he will not stop talking about the situation and he is involving eveyone in our problem. Has anyone else ever been in this situation because I am desperate for help.

OP posts:
TrappedinEngland · 05/07/2011 17:50

IloveTIFFANY you do not seem to understand the problem. Contact could take place in India as my family would be prepared to give somewhere to live whilst there.

I am not cluthcing at straws as the level of abuse is not something that I would choose to discuss at length in public.

You are twisting my words. If I have to look after my daughter and am given no money to socialise how can I go out? You do not understand how awkward it would be for my family to visit as he has made his views known. You do not understand that such a level of disapproval is as effective as putting a physical barrier to their travel. The money I get only covers food and some clothing for our daughter. He controls the rest of the money and sometimes shops with me so that he can pay rather than giving me money directly.

OP posts:
HystericalMe · 05/07/2011 17:55

Why should she have a problem going on holiday? Make it clear you are coming back to the UK with the child. It is just a holiday. Contact him to kep him calm and tell him it is just a holiday and you are coming back.

Proudnscary · 05/07/2011 17:57

Not really read other replies, but you would be very surprised at how much UK courts find in favour of UK parents/rule against children being taken abroad.

I think it very unlikely you would be allowed to do this if it went to court.

The abuse you say has happened is a different matter - I don't know how to advise you in terms of the rest of your problems.

prh47bridge · 05/07/2011 18:07

The fact that you say "contact could take place in India as my family would be prepared to give somewhere to live whilst there" suggests that you are looking to take your daughter to India permanently. I am not surprised your partner is unwilling to agree to this. If this goes to court the primary consideration will be your daughter's welfare. The likely quantity and quality of contact between your daughter and her father after you return to India would be an important part of this. It is impossible to say what the courts would decide. You need to consult a solicitor.

GypsyMoth · 05/07/2011 18:39

so you are planning on leaving permanently

how on earth would contact happen? are you going to pay his return airfare?

go to womens aid about the abuse,but legally,you are unlikely to be taking your daughter away from this country. who has the passport for your dd?

bobblehead · 05/07/2011 19:08

Trapped, sorry I have no advice but I do understand how you feel. Dh and I emigrated from UK prekids and things were great. After the birth of our youngest dh developed a drug addiction then became an alcoholic. Like you, I would have been unable to leave the country to be with my supportive family.
Fortunately for me dh is getting better, but it is not helpful to be told you shouldn't have had kids in a country you didn't like etc! I love where I am, but miss my family so much, especially when I needed them so much. Alcoholics make pretty shit parents, so to know your child is missing out on the love/role models of extended family in order to keep a drinker involved is hard.
Good luck, I think a solicitor is definately the way to go.
p.s if your partner is on the computer alot while drinking/drunk chances are its porn he's looking at...

TrappedinEngland · 06/07/2011 11:57

I really need to stress that I would never take my daughter from this country permanently without the proper permission. My reply to how contact would take place has not been viewed as that but as a intention to leave the country. I just want her to see my family in their country for the first time and get a break from a partner who is exhausting me.

Do you think I should ask my family to provide accommodation for him in India so that he could come with us if we go on holiday and be reassured that I am not leaving permanently?

My dauighter does not yet have a passport as far as I know because we have not been out of the country. Perhaps I could get her an Indian passport.

We did buy a house jointly with me providing most of the deposit. If I did ever want to leave permanently, I assume he would have to repay me the deposit. Some of that money could be used for flights if I am forced to pay for them so that he could have contact as I wish him still to know our daughter. Would it not be more fair for me to pay half of the fare?

OP posts:
fridascruffs · 06/07/2011 12:04

Well I sympathise Trapped, but there's a strong chance you won't be allowed to take her abroad permanently. All your suggestions for taking her on holiday and taking him too to reassure him are reasonable, but he himself may not be reasonable. Perhaps you should be thinking about leaving him and living independently in Britain; you could then visit home when he has your daughter during his half of school holidays?

Proudnscary · 06/07/2011 12:36

Trapped, you sound really quite naive. Firstly, as I said up thread (and I have knowledge of this area) it is extremely unlikely you would get 'permission', as you call it, to leave with dd permanently. The courts will find against you in my opinion.

Re 'I assume he would have to repay me the deposit' - that is extremely simplistic, it does not work like that! You need proper legal advice.

Re 'should I provide for him to go India with us on holiday' - will he agree to this even if you decided to do this?!

I'm sorry for you feeling so trapped, but you need to get proper RL help and advice on all these areas before you can proceed with any of it.

Xiaoxiong · 06/07/2011 12:39

Trapped, you say would never take your daughter to India permanently without all the proper permissions, but unfortunately the onus is on you to convince your DH of that fact. If he suspects, reasonably or unreasonably that you do intend to do this, then he may try and stop you in which case you will have to convince an independent third party of this before you would be able to go.

This may be a language issue, but the use of phrases such as "money could be used for flights...so that he could have contact" and "I wish him still to know our daughter" imply that you are intending a more extended stay than what I would consider a holiday (I would say no more than 1 month, others here may disagree), such that your H's relationship with DD would be affected and contact visits would be necessary to make sure she maintains that relationship. How long were you intending to stay in India for your holiday?

I'd say booking a holiday for all three of you to go to India would be a big signal to him that you have no intention of taking your DD away permanently - have you suggested this to him? What was his reaction?

tadpoles · 06/07/2011 12:52

I would contact Women's Aid - you sound as though you are living with a controlling and emotionally abusive man.

I would also contact the Citizens Advice Bureau to see if they can help in any way.

fastweb · 06/07/2011 13:13

Perhaps I could get her an Indian passport

Depends on the circs, have a look here and see what you think.

hcilondon.in/passport.php

High Commission of India, London

Passports for Children born in the UK

(a) For a child to be given an Indian passport, the birth must have been registered with the Consular Section of the High Commission within one year of birth.

(b) The fee for this service is £15.

(c) In case more than one year has elapsed since the birth of your child, you also need to submit a Home Office letter and an affidavit stating that your child has not acquired British Nationality

(d) For procedure regarding registration of children/birth, please refer to the Consular Services section of this website:
www.hcilondon.in/counslateservice1.php

Please provide a copy of the receipt in case you have already registered.

(e) Children's name cannot be entered on their parents? passport.

(f) To apply for issue of a new passport to a child, you must fill up the application form for a new passport along with four latest identical passport-size photographs. You also need to enclose original passports of both parents, with self attested photocopies, and the child's birth certificate (full version), along with a photocopy.

(g) Both the parents are required to sign on the passport application form of the child and the signatures should match with that on their passport. Thumb impression of the child may be provided at the relevant place of signature of applicant. The fee for this service is £17.00.

(h) If one of the parents? is holding any other nationality/passport, a letter from the concerned Embassy/ High Commission stating that the child does not hold that nationality/passport must be enclosed

(i) For child passport with single parent, an affidavit sworn before a Commissioner of Oaths or Notary Public with proper seal as per the specimen copy attached, duly attested and signed.

rainydays10 · 06/07/2011 13:33

gosh trapped, you sound like me.

I moved to the UK 8 years ago. have 2 children with DP (one of them has special needs; he is autistic). DP doesn't let me visit my family either and won't let them stay in our house either. my parents now come once a year and stay at a nearby hotel.
DP is worried I would not return if I leave the country (though I would never do this) and won't let me go home therefore. haven't been home for 5 years now :(

DP is also controlling and emotionally, financially & verbally abusive and life is tough. I am desperate to move out but as we have a mortgage, I won't qualify for housing benefit - so I am trapped.

you say you are at present a SAHM. would working be an option? my life is difficult and hard work (household - DP does nothing), children (esp my son with severe autism) + job. and as I don't have family near by I don't get any help and support from anybody. but what keeps me sane is going to work - it makes live in a way even harder because I am up and running by 6 in the morning and finish housework usually around midnight. BUT it brings in a bit of extra cash and have the chance to get out of the house. without it, I would lose my mind.

hope women's aid (I haven't tried them yet but suppose I should) and the solicitor are able to give you help and advice!

Octopus3 · 06/07/2011 13:49

Trapped, I think what yu are saying sounds unclear because you are unclear with yourself of what you would like to see happening.
You have 3 sperate problems there:
1- You wuld like to go back hom and allow your dd to see her family for the first time. Your DH doesn't want you to (on the ground that he can stop from doing it because because of his own fears). My undrstanding, as others have highlighted before, is that you can actually go to court and you would proabbly be granted the holidays back to your own country. There is no reason why you and your dd should be prevented to know half of her family (and history).
2- You are in an abusive relationship. Your DH is withdrawing money, doesn't llow you to see your own family in the UK + other stuff that you haven't talked about. Now let's be clear, regardless of your country of orgine, there is NO reason for you to stay in this reationship. Ring the WA, ask for info & support on how to get out of there, for yur own sanity and for the welfare of your dd.
3- When you have separated of yur now H, would you be able to go back to live in India? Most people have cooncentrated on that, saying you possibly can't. It would be awfull for your dd etc... Well I would say, when this time comes, go and see a lawyer specialized in that area. From what you said, you were working in India and must have had a good enough wage if you actually paid for most of the deposit. All that must be taken into account but unfortunatly, you probably can't assume you will be able to go back to India (Apart if your H is just trying to scare you and seeing you are not going to let go decides it's more hassle than anything and let go). However, I would say that life in the UK will probably not look so bad once yu are out this relationship, able to see yur family (Here or in India - see point 1).

You reallly need to tackle each issue separately because there are different issues that require different answers.

Do yu think you could go and see a counsellor (perhaps yur family in India would be willing to support you in that?) so that you can clarify in your head what is going on and start doing things to protect yourself (and your dd).

Good luck, I can feel from your post how desperate yu are and also how meesed up things are in your head. You will get there!

mittenkitten · 06/07/2011 13:49

So you provided most of the deposit for the house you bought, yet your P tries not to give you any spending money. Lovely.

I agree, you MUST MUST MUST talk to WA, a solicitor, etc. to find out where you stand legally and financially and begin the process of extricating yourself. I think you see a return to India as a quick solution to your awful situation (I am the same way when stressed and miserable -- I just want my mum!) but in reality it will be more complicated.

If you are going to have to stay in the UK you will need support, so reach out and ask for it.

Octopus3 · 06/07/2011 13:50

rainydays, contact WA and sort this benefit thngy sorted out. At worst you can just leave him the house, remove your name from the deeds. No more reason to stay in an abusive relationship and yu will be much better of wo him.

mittenkitten · 06/07/2011 13:52

But are you ON the deeds to the house? Do you know where you stand legally as far as that goes?

GypsyMoth · 06/07/2011 13:52

does your visa allow you to live here independent of you partner??

Octopus3 · 06/07/2011 13:56

One last thing.
I have been appauled at the reactions of some posters on this thread.

The Op obvioulsy is in an abuive relationship. If she hadn't been from another country, everyone would have flocked to support her, telling her she needs to come out of the relationship.Could she not move in with her parenst for a bit??
But no, because the Op is from a foreign country and is expressing her dream of going back to a 'safe place', she is getting under attack by many 'because she wants to spearte her dd from her dad.What an awfull thing to do'.

None of it is really helpfull. And it lacks a lot of compassion for the suffering of another human being tbh.
As for people making assumption and judgment (He is a nice guy who works hard to provide for his family, the OP shouldn't have had a child in a country she doesn't like etc etc...). I'd rather not comment on that!

mittenkitten · 06/07/2011 14:06

I agree Octopus. I felt very sad at some of the things that were said.

lightsandshapes · 06/07/2011 14:52

This is tricky - if his level of abuse is documentable you could get an injunction against him, leaving him with few access rights. Then you as the main carer would be in charge of where you live etc. Is his name on her birth certificate? If not, he also has very limited parental rights. I am no expert on this - but I would seek legal advice from a solicitor.

mummytime · 06/07/2011 16:20

The solution is not leaving the country; which may be hard to do legally.
However we do have a great legal system for divorce, and people like Women's aid will help you leave an abusive partner. You can get further advice from solicitors and the CAB.

I would suggest taking baby steps, and planning to leave the relationship first (Women's aid can help). Do you have any family in this country? Can your family overseas help you find somewhere to live etc?

Once you have left, you can start to build a new life. And see if legally you can leave the country with your child.

GypsyMoth · 06/07/2011 16:23

Could you afford a solicitor?

Lightsandshapes......an injunction would not limit his access rights. Where have you got that from? And it certainly doesn't mean op can up and leave and move country!

TrappedinEngland · 06/07/2011 18:51

I have tried to make some start on the problems. I went to Women's Aid but the person i was due to see was out on some emergency so I will go back.

I have spoken to the mortgage company and they have said that unless my partner's wage can support the mortgage alone they will not release me from the mortgage. The problem is that I earned more than him before our daughter was born and so the mortgage would not have been given without my earnings.

The council cannot rehouse me because I am not seen as homeless and there is therefore no chance of me buying another.

Although I have not achieved anything positive today I do know some of the things I cannot do.

One of the ways I may be able to sort the problem is to go back to work when my daughter starts school. I have my professional qualifications and so may be able to start at a reasonable level and be able to pay for a solicitor.

My partner is not prepared to travel to India even if his flights are paid for and his accommodation is provided by my family. I would like to go for a holiday of 4 weeks ideally but would settle for 2 weeks.

I would like to thank you all for your very helpful advice which is helping me work through these problems.

OP posts:
mittenkitten · 06/07/2011 19:08

Wow, Trapped -- I know you think you haven't achieved anything positive but you have taken some major steps.

You sound very strong. Just wondering -- would you be able to ask your family to help pay for a solicitor?