Should I be able to leave England

[TrappedinEngland]

6 years ago I came to this country encouraged by my partner. We had a daughter who is now 4. I am desperately missing my own country and my family. Partner is refusing to let me go with our child and has threatened to take me to court if I do not leave our daughter in this country. I am at a loss what to do and he will not stop talking about the situation and he is involving eveyone in our problem. Has anyone else ever been in this situation because I am desperate for help.

tadpoles - "she can apply to the courts and they would consider this to be a reasonable request". That is only true if the courts are satisfied that this is a genuine holiday and the child will be returned safely to England. If the courts conclude that the holiday is a bluff and that the OP intends to return to her home country with her daughter permanently they would not grant the necessary order.

The OP does NOT have a right to take her child abroad for a holiday. She has the right to go abroad for a holiday herself. No-one will stop her from doing that. Whether she can take her daughter with her is another matter. That is down to the rights of all those with parental responsibility.

I sympathise with the OP. If she genuinely wants to take her daughter for a holiday to see her family that is entirely reasonable. However, if I were advising her partner I would be telling him that, unless he is confident that the OP will return to the UK with his daughter, he should be refusing consent and fighting hard to ensure that his daughter remains in the UK.

Can you go on your own? Or taking DD with you is the only realistic way? Is DP willing to look after DD for a while so that you can go visit your family?

Fastweb makes an excellent point re speaking to your consulate. At this point it seems as though the best thing you can do is reach out for RL practical support and if necessary legal advice.

If your relationship is untenable and you left your relationship and were able to make a life for yourself and your DD it would be hard -- but you would likely end up feeling more positive about life here. However all this is hypothetical until you get solid information on where you stand.

OP Has your country ratified the Hague Convention ?

OP

There is a specialized forum which it might help to read to bring you up to speed on the jargon, legal procedures and issues you need to know about, as well as an idea of the various realities you could be facing. If nothing else it will give you a place to talk and be heard by people who do understand how you feel.

www.reunite.org/forum.asp

I've only skimmed it but the seems to be lots of people in your position on the thread entitled "where is the light at the end of the tunnel?", might be worth asking advice from the posters talking there.

Reading other threads would shine a light on the advice, information and perspective of people like your husband, so you are not playing catch up all the time and trying to second guess what he is thinking or what he has found out.

I would also recommend finding out where your nearest RL expat groups are.

Expat groups can descend into nasty bubbles of self perpetuating misery sometimes, so be sure to take the temp of the group before you get in too deep. Hopefully building up a network or people who just "get you" on a cultural level and speak your language will take the edge off the desire to be back home. They could be an invaluable support and by being networked you could find opportunities that while not as good as being home, make the UK more bearable.

And maybe popping into your GP to get the wheels in motion to get you some counseling love, this is a very high stress situation, sometimes it is better to be proactive about getting help before it becomes a time sensitive issue and you are left dangling in a queue just when you need help the most.

"The OP does NOT have a right to take her child abroad for a holiday."

Are you saying that parents do not have the right to take their children on holiday? She is one of the two people with parental responsibilty. Why do her partner's right come before hers?

Also, your comment that she is entitled to go on holiday is patronising in the extreme - since when did you decide who has a right to go on holiday? Of course she has a right to bloody well go on holiday, as far as I am aware we we are not (yet) living in a police state.

I most certainly will not be obtaining anyone's permission before going on holiday with or without my children and that includes my husbands.

My husband's permission that is and before anyone starts bleating about social services or legal crap THEY ARE OVER 18 - YIPPEEE!!!!

I understand the issues here, by the way, but I still think the OP has a right to take her children on holiday.

Thank you for all the very useful advice you have given me.

I come from India. I have tried to remain independent by not claiming benefits and have used my savings from a previously well paid job to survive and clothe my daughter.

Do you think his excessive drinking and abuse would give me a reason to leave this country as it is beginning to upset my daughter.

I have explained that I would return if allowed to take a holiday, but he is adamant that I do not go. My family have offered to help with the cost of the flights and I would have no living costs once I got home as I would be staying with my family.

I most certainly will not be obtaining anyone's permission before going on holiday with or without my children and that includes my husbands.

You don't need permission as such, but if your husband goes to the authorities claiming that you are intending to remain in another country with his (minor) children, you could find your passports get confiscated by the police in the immediate and a formal prohibitive order placed against you in the longer term.

Legally one parent does not have the right to dictate that the child relocate overseas against the wishes of the other parent if that child is being taken away from their habitual country of residence .

The courts decide which country the child will be resident in, in case of a dispute.

Do you think his excessive drinking and abuse would give me a reason to leave this country as it is beginning to upset my daughter

It might help if it was serious enough to cast doubt on him having a role in the LO's life, but according to the people on the forum I linked above, you need to start getting these behaviors documented if you have not already. It would appear that your word is not a green light to the courts seeing things your way. I'd talk to CAB about how to set about doing that, and also about the possibility of you being rehoused because it doesn't sound very healthy. Would you consider a shelter or is not quite at that point yet ?

You could also benefit with from a consult with your embassy and a recommended solicitor for some advice on what to do in the short term and where to start planning what to do in the long term about asking for permission of leave. It is a huge learning curve and you could really do with somebody who is knowledgeable to help you through the maze on information.

Do you have any freinds or family in the country at all ? Any Indian community nearby that you could turn to for support ?

no. his drinking/abuse wont be enough for you to be given leave of jurisdiction......haqve a look around the boards....plenty of men who drink etc are given good supervised contact,if warranted.

how would you propose contact to go ahead in India???

yes!! Your daughter has a right to se her culture and also to get a break from your DPs drinking and controlling behaviour. The courts would tke this into account surely? For him not to be keen on your family viiting is unreasonable. The posters on this page suggest that thi is like saudi arabia or something where the wife needs the husbands permission to go on holiday! NOt here surely???? Speak to the Citizen's advice bureau sap. You need a holiay - p.s. India is a gorgeous country. Went ther 1 year ago and love it so much. Your daughter hasa right to experience her heritage! Good luck

his drinking/abuse wont be enough for you to be given leave of jurisdiction......haqve a look around the boards

It might be depending on the severity. There is one case on there where the mother is having to only go through the motions of informing the husband of her taking the kids to a third country because his parental rights were terminated due to documented abuse and other issues.

But it would seem the bar is very high in terms of poor spousal behavior defining who does and does not get a say in where the kids live.

Seems like being the primary carer is a huge plus for those applying for permission to leave from the UK (but not in Italy, having looked at the cases on my own turf).

Reading all those stories of people trapped in poverty and disadvantage abroad, or suffering horribly not knowing where their children are, sometimes for years, even sibling groups split up, has left me thoroughly despondent.

I did have some background before I had a baby with DH, but had I read that site first I think I would have had the pregnant scared out of me.

documented abuse......there has been no mention,til last post. almost feels like the op is clutching at straws now.

is he the same culture?

op says

he doesnt want her to go out.......not that he doesnt stop her from going out
doesnt like the idea of family visiting.......cant stop them,should they come over
gives her hardly any money.......but he's giving her some

"NOt here surely????"

Go read the posts on the forum I linked, it really is quite eye opening even for me and I KNEW the implications of having a baby abroad before I had one.

If a spouse believes the partner does not intend to return from a holiday with their minor children and takes action it is possible to find passports confiscated in the immediate and the case going to court. Which can result in a prohibitive order meaning the other parent is barred from taking the kids out of the country.

some of the posters are colluding in OPs oppression. when her DP had a baby with her HE should have thought about the right of that child to know its family and participate in both cultures. Who does he think he is to put her family off visiting? Who does he think he is not to let her go out? He is the criminal here and she should be protected by the same laws that mean british nationals are protected from mental abuse. OP is in a vulnerable situation, and I feel for her a lot. Good luck OP. if you cant get on holiday, at least invite your family over to a neutral place like centreparks and holiday with them there, without dp, so you can get some time with your family and dd. God luck!

lightsandshapes

Just to give you another perspective on the law as it stands with regards to a child leaving the country against the wishes of one parent.

What if the OP had been a British mother, frantic because her husband wanted to take her daughter to Pakistan on a holiday, but she was terrified because the relationship was on the rocks and she thought he might not come back and keep her girl over there and came here asking if there was anyway she could block him taking her daughter out of the country.

Would you reply..

NO!! his daughter has a right to se her culture and also to get a break from you two fighting all the time. The courts would tke this into account surely? The posters on this page suggest that thi is like saudi arabia or something ! NOt here surely???? He should speak to the Citizen's advice bureau sap. He need a holiay - p.s. Pakistan is a gorgeous country. Went ther 1 year ago and love it so much. His daughter hasa right to experience her heritage!

There is more than one perspective to these laws. It's hard to see that when you are at the sharp end of them (have had my days in the past of chuntering about the unfairness of it all), but there is another side to the coin as to why we have them. Mostly the aim is to make sure the children's needs are prioritised above all other considerations. Including the happiness of the parent who would like to go home.

op.......do you have a visa? what does it say?

you arent married or working here.....what kind of visa did you get?

and why arent you claiming any benefits? no child benefit?

fastweb, i like the way you reproduced my typos!

I just cut and paste love, would have felt a bit snotty to go through and correct them.

Or maybe that is me projecting cos I get uptight when people correct mine, I may be hypersensitive about it, but it feels like a critisim.

Think I may have taken comments at school a bit too personally and lugged them into adulthood with me.

tadpoles - "Are you saying that parents do not have the right to take their children on holiday? She is one of the two people with parental responsibilty. Why do her partner's right come before hers?"

No, legally a parent does not have the right to take their children on holiday unless they have the consent of everyone with parental responsibility. It cuts both ways. The OP's partner can't take their daughter out of the country without her consent. Her partner's rights do not come before hers but nor do her rights come before her partners.

"Also, your comment that she is entitled to go on holiday is patronising in the extreme - since when did you decide who has a right to go on holiday? Of course she has a right to bloody well go on holiday, as far as I am aware we we are not (yet) living in a police state."

In what way am I suggesting that I decide who has a right to go on holiday? I was not in any way suggesting that either I or anybody else has that right. Indeed, I was making it clear that nobody has the right to stop her from going to see her family. If she goes on her own there is no problem. But if she wants to take her daughter she either needs her partner's consent or a court order. You may not like it but that is the law.

haha, know what you mean. dodgy keyboard here - that's my excuse anyway!

I had previously responded to all questions but the post has not appeared.

I have tried to get a solicitor, but the first appointment is in two weeks. I will try Women's Aid tomorrow as I cannot put up with any more drunken shouting from him

As I am anxious to learn about the problems and he is looking at the internet all the time, does anyone have any websites that they can suggest I look at.