Should I be able to leave England

[TrappedinEngland]

6 years ago I came to this country encouraged by my partner. We had a daughter who is now 4. I am desperately missing my own country and my family. Partner is refusing to let me go with our child and has threatened to take me to court if I do not leave our daughter in this country. I am at a loss what to do and he will not stop talking about the situation and he is involving eveyone in our problem. Has anyone else ever been in this situation because I am desperate for help.

lightsandshapes - I'm afraid the law does not agree with you. The OP is free to take a holiday in her home country at any time. However, if she wants to take her daughter with her she needs the father's consent or a court order. Whatever you may think, she does NOT have the right to take her daughter out of the country without consent. If she acted as you suggest her partner could report her to the police for child abduction.

Her DP obviously thinks that there is a chance she won't come back. So the question is why does he think that?

The fact her OH doesn't even want her family to come visit is ringing some bells, potentially he is trying to force her in to isolation? Just a thought.

And just to be clear, I don't think the father is behaving reasonably in trying to block a holiday to see the OP's family. The courts would agree as long as they were happy that the arrangements are reasonable and the child will return to the UK safely.

she will surely need money to go abroad anyway.....maybe money is tight!!

he's the only one working. where would op get the cash from to go with?

It's hard when you only are getting one side of the story.

As others have already said, perhaps given the state of their relationship he's scared she will not return? Perhaps cash is short and its not about control but lack of cash?

"nice"guy, got tired of posting to explain why it's fine for you to have a lapdance but you wouldn't be thrilled to have your daughter become a lapdancer?

Really, how is it okay for the OP's P to discourage her from having her family to visit? How is it okay for him to try to make her stay at home, to not give her any money?

You REALLY think that those behaviours are justified by him wanting to maintain a relationship with his daughter?? You are actually frightening me.

I'm surprised that there hasn't been more comments about the way OP is being treated.

I mean her OH doesn't even want her family to come visit, and the comments about him not giving her any money. Fair enough he may be the only 1 working but being a full time SAHM is hard work! Surely they should both be equal in the relationship and it does not seem as if this is the case here.

mitten odd post. I don't think niceguy said it was ok for the OP's partner to discourage her from having her family to visit, to make her stay at home and to not give her any money.

Gwendoline, niceguy and others are right: it sounds like from the OP's partner's perspective, he doesn't believe this is just a holiday. If it really is just a holiday I think the onus is on the OP to convince her partner that it is just that, and that they will return in a reasonable length of time - opinions may differ on this but I would say any more than a month would be pushing the definition of a holiday.

OP you say that your partner "does not like the idea" of your family coming over. Is this because he thinks he'd be expected to pay for their tickets and visas and provide accommodation while they are here? I think if they get here under their own steam and sort out their own accommodation it doesn't matter a jot whether your partner "likes this idea" or not, he can't stop them.

OP has said specifically: "I ahve thought of getting my family over but he does not like the idea. I would not visit them and not come back. If I did leave permanently then I would want to do it the right way.

He is very controlling. He gives me hardly any money and does not ever want me to go out and that is partly why my life is so unhappy."

Nowhere did she say he would have to pay for them to visit. She sounds isolated and depressed, and yet most of the posters on here seem to be looking for reasons to excuse or explain away her P's behaviour. To me, that's what's "odd" here.

It is not unreasonable for the op to want to go abroad to see her family. But if the relationship is at breaking point and there's a good chance that the op will not want to return to this country, it is unreasonable for her to remove her daughter with her and potentially take her away from her father.

If this thread was reversed and the op posted:

"my relationship with my dp is at breaking point and he says he needs a break. he is not from this country and has said he wants to go back to his home country to see his family. However, he has also said that he wants to take our four year old daughter with him. I don't want this because I am afraid he won't come back, he has never really been happy here and I suspect that once he goes home there's a real chance he won't want to return to the UK."

What would people be saying? would they be encouraging the op to let her dd go abroad with his father? I don't think so.

this comment struck me:

"My daughter likes her father but is not really close to him.I think she would miss me more as I have looked after her each day for the whole of the day." I think you are deluding yourself. You want to believe they're not close in order to justify your taking her out of the country and potentially away from her father.

In truth there are two issues here. The first is the state of your relationship. If you feel trapped in the relationship with your dp then you have every right to leave said relationship.

But I'm afraid to say that when you have a child in a country that is not originally your own then you have made a commitment to that country until such times as that child is old enough to be able to independently have a relationship with both parents and travel between countries to maintain a relationship. You do not have the right to deny your dd a relationship with her father by leaving the country with her. Sorry, but if you didn't like it here then you shouldn't have had a child here.

absolutely wannabe...totally agree.

What wannabe said.

"Sorry, but if you didn't like it here then you shouldn't have had a child here."

That's pretty harsh. Most of us can't predict the future. She said she was happy here initially although her P didn't marry her as promised but then was left home alone all day to care for their child. Surprised nobody has brought up the possibility of PND -- but even if that's not a factor, being left home alone all day when you have no support in the country is really, really hard.

I think people are judging too harshly in a situation in which they don't have experience. The OP is in a vulnerable position and just wants to see her family, which seems normal to me. She has said specifically she's not planning to do a runner with her daughter.

It's absolutely not unreasonable. As I said, the OP's DP obviously has concerns. Now those concerns might be because the OP has given him reason to think it wouldn't be a holiday. But it equally could be because he's controlling and demanding. We only have her side of the story.

I am trying to picture this froim the opposite angle and imagining what reponses 'he' might get and the chances are it would be a chorus of don't let the child out of the country whatever you do...

it may be harsh but it's true.

The state of the op's relationship is entirely different from the fact she doesn't like it here and wants to go home.

No, maybe she didn't think about things before having a child, but these senarios are all so common that it's something that definitely should be given consideration.

And the fact is she now does have a child. so whether or not she thought about it first is irelevant now - she has an obligation to that child to stay in her country of birth in order to maintain a relationship with her father.

"But I'm afraid to say that when you have a child in a country that is not originally your own then you have made a commitment to that country."

Errrrrrrrrrrr - the commitment is to the child, not the country.

"You do not have the right to deny your dd a relationship with her father by leaving the country with her."

Her partner also does not have a right to deny their child a relationship with the extended family abroad.

If she is planning on a vist to see her family abroad, why should her partner insist that the child remain here?

She has not said that she is not planning to come back.

In the normal course of events one parent may take the children away on holiday by him or herself and there will be no formal 'consent' given.

Presumably, the issue here is that the relationship has broken down to the extent that her partner feels she may be tempted to remain in her home country for an extended period with their child.

However, as has been explained already on this thread, the OP does have a right to take their child abroad for a holiday and she, too, could 'threaten' her partner to take the matter to court where the courts would consider it reasonable for her to take their child with her on holiday.

So, she has her answer. If the partner refuses to allow her to take her daughter on holiday, then she can apply to the courts and they would consider this to be a reasonable request. Which of course it is.

Sounds like the OPs partner doesn't like the idea of her getting back into the bosom of her family where they will see that she is miserable and isolated.

Also, it is not at all unreasonable for her to have said that she believes that their child will miss her more than the father. She is the primary caretaker, therefore she spends much more time with the child. That is a perfectly logical conclusion to make, so I am not quite sure how some posters have turned that against the OP.

I presume this would be the kind of information that the courts would take into consideration, in the event of separation/divorce and a custody dispute.

wonder which country op has family in....would shed a bit more light

also,she will be soon bound by school and will really only be able to go during school holidays. but with no money coming her way then itas doubtful she could go either way

no money means no trip to court/airfares

If the OP was stuck in another country, I am sure the answers would be different.
by "Sorry, but if you didn't like it here then you shouldn't have had a child here."

Well no of course the op hasn't said she's not going to come back - she's hardly likely to is she?

And yes, if the op was in a different country I would have said exactly the same.

Tbh I think this is a massive drawback to inter-country relationships, because while if things go well it's not an issue, if the relationship breaks down then the sacrifices in order to maintain relationships between children and parents are that much greater.

And if the op's dp thinks that the child may be detained in another country then yes, I think he has every right to take action to prevent this from happening.

TBH I think some posters backs were up simply because of the title of the thread. "Leave England" sounds permanent; plus there are other people who seemed to take offense to the idea that she doesn't like it here. "Liking" a place is pretty circumstantial, though. If her relationship hadn't broken down, if she weren't isolated and depressed, she'd probably see things differently.

What if you marry someone who gets transferred? What if you marry someone who takes a job in another country? You act on the best information you have, you love each other, you have your dreams and plans together -- but shit happens. Were you supposed to say, "Sorry, I love you and I'm committed to you but not SO committed that I'm going to have a child with you, because we live in a foreign country?" It ain't realistic, and it's also not right to be harsh to someone who is in this position.

Wish OP would come back and talk about other specifics in the relationship, however, as the hints she's given make it sound like there's a lot more going on.

OP I totally understand this....my husband is from another country and has tried to get me to live abroad...I tried it and hated it....we all ame back.

An unhappy Mother who is isolated from her own culture is a terrible thing...I have been there.

PLEASE see Womens Aid and the Citizens Adice. They will help you.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, just the OP...

I live in Italy, married to an Italian, but I am English.

I knew that having a child together would potentially leave me stuck out here without an anchor or a support system here if we split up. Not cos I am dead clever, simply because I'm on husband 2.0 and the first was was Thai, with us living in BKK. So I had the advantage of a crash course in how things can turn out with kids in the mix, by watching my friends getting a huge shock when they realized they were trapped out there unless they were prepared to leave their children.

DS is 11 now, my marriage is fine, (most days, we have had our moments over the last 16 years), but I feel that if it went belly up the onus would be on me to stay here for the sake of my son having the sort of relationship he has right now with his father, and avoiding DS taking my place as the person who is unhappy "far from home".

That doesn't mean I am without sympathy, I really do know what the reality entails when you are not at all enjoying the place you have moved to AT ALL but feel trapped. But right now you need to think about things in terms of your son's needs before you concentrate on your own.

Remember that any action on your part that could be construed as attempting to take your son out the country without permission could come back and cause you terrible trouble. Do speak to a lawyer to find out your rights, do speak to your consulate to find out what additional support or advice (if any) they offer. then sit back and digest that information and see what you can work out with your husband as a compromise, because somebody is going to have to. If not all three of you on some level.

You have to bear in mind that as desperate as you are to take you son "home", your spouse is equally desperate to keep him "home". Even while being adversaries you are both coming from the same place essentially.

Your husband is trying to avoid the risk losing his child permemantly by allowing said child to leave the country with you because he does not trust you will come back.

If the tables were turned, would you not do the same ?

"by not allowing said child"