Can this be salvaged? Long - sorry.

[Siobhan487]

Hi! Can I just have opinions on whether this is salvagable or not:

DH and I are both secondary school teachers and manage departments. This means we both work long hours and bring home a lot of work to do at evenings and weekends, it is just the nature of the job. We also have two DC 6 and 4. We also have several pets - all elderly from before the time before DC. We have no family support - neither of us have siblings. He has a Mum - who dislikes me and has tried to break up our marriage (wanted DH back at home with her after her husband died - so tried to get rid of me, initially openly and when that didn't work in an underhand way) so we don't see her and my Dad is elderly and although will support when asked is not able to look after children or be left with them. I have been ill for the last two years - have pushed myself on with medication/heavy doses of significant painkillers up until 2 months ago when I had fairly majory surgery which I am still getting over, but hopefully will have solved a lot of the medical issues I was having. It will take me another few months to be at a stage where I have recovered though.

The issues:

1. Every weekend is shit. It starts on Friday night when we seem to go through a battle because we both know we have a lot of work to do before Monday, it is impossible to do the work with DC around - so the arguing starts about who is looking after DC and who is going to get to do their work. As we also both work there is the laundry, housework and other domestic admin that needs doing too. Again another cue for an arguments. DC are wingy and whiny all weekend because they want to go out and do stuff. But they end up spending all weekend being bored at home, because both of us are too busy to take them out - either working or domestic stuff. The nature of our jobs are not that the work can be left either - it has to be done - we both work long hours in the week, as well as straight through lunch, any non-teaching time etc. I like my job, I am good at my job, I don't like the admin/waste of time bits of my job, but that is what the job is now, so to a large extent you have to just accept that.

2. Sleep. Due to the amount of work etc that we have the only way to do it is at night. The illness has made me very tired and run down, so I also fall asleep a lot and can't seem to work through the night as well as I used to. I used to push on through until 1am/2am a few nights a week - get up again at 6am and cope with it. DH still does this - I can't, I try but due to all the medication I end up asleep my head on the desk or in a state the next day that I am dangerous to drive. The DC don't sleep very well. The youngest is often up in the night - we aim to have them in bed by 7.30pm, but it is often later, due to not getting in until gone 6pm with them from childcare by the time we finish work and then several days DC have clubs (Beavers, swimming lessons etc) that go on until 7pm, so by the time we get back it is later, so often is 9pm or later before they are in bed. The youngest then often gets up 2 or 3 times a night. Sometimes they will go back to bed - but need to be sat with for a while, again taking time up, which frustrates whoever is sat with him as they need to be marking or whatever prep they need to do. Sometimes youngest is put on the sofa in front of CBeebies whilst one of us is sat next to them trying to work and majority of nights this is where the youngest and the parent end up spending the night. This means everyone is bad tempered and ratty.

3. Money - we have debts. We are stuck in a house that nobody is happy with - too small, bad area, tatty etc. We have debts so do not have money or means to take out a second mortgage and we are completely unable to sell the house because of the issues with the area, an estate agent said we may be able to rent it out but no chance of selling it for several years. We both need to work the hours/jobs we do, because we cannot allow our income to drop at all, as we are barely scraping by at the minute with debt repayments, massive childcare costs etc. We both have ancient (worth about £200) cars, no public transport - rural Devon, everything is cut back to the bone that can be. We don't go out, we don't smoke or drink. The only money spent on socialising as such is the DC's clubs Beavers/swimming lessons etc.

4. Dogs - We have 5 elderly dogs. Yes, I know we shouldn't have them but they are from before we got together, before DC, - I had 3, he had 2. They now range from 11 years to 16 years, one is blind but has can hear, another is blind and deaf, another has major skin allergies and needs medication to control that, the other two are just old. They take work, time and money. They cost in vets bills/medicine and special food due to illness. They cannot be re-homed due to their age/health. I don't want to rehome them either, they deserve to live their lives out in the place they are familiar with. We commited to them when we got them and that was for life, so need to keep them and look after them for as long as possible. I didn't know that life would end up as it has when I got them. I pay a lovely lady one day a week to come in and let them out during the day which is all I can afford and the other days I have to dash back from work myself to do it.

5. DC - Eldest DC has SEN - we are battling with school to get these recognised. I know what is wrong - I am trying to get it recognised by the school so that they can give him the support he needs. His confidence is being affected by this, he needs time spending with him, I don't have the time he needs.

I am sorry that was long - trying to lay it all out so you can get an idea of the situation. Basically the problem is that we are now both HUGELY angry and resentful of each other. We are both pissed off, tired and sick of everything. We do not go out at all, neither of us has any hobbies. I like to read books, but if I ever sit down to read for a few minutes - I will either get disturbed by DC or DH will come past and look at me and I feel guilty and get up to do a job. These last few weeks I have had to be in bed due to the surgery. He has resented me being in bed, he has made me feel lazy and useless and I have ended up getting up when I shouldn't and doing jobs, driving, running DC around, looking after DC when I shouldn't have been - the op I had takes 6 weeks to get over for a straight forward one - mine was not straight forward - there were complications - I was told I should take 8 - 10 weeks off work and then take life very slowly for another 4 weeks. I ended up having to drive 4 weeks after the surgery in order to get DC as DH was unable to leave work early enough to get them, it hurt a lot (physically) but I had to do it. I resent him for that. I resent him for not allowing me time to heal. I resent him for making me feel guilty about doing what the hospital had told me to do after the surgery ie being in bed. He resents me for not having the time to concentrate on his career. He resents me for him not having a relationship with his Mum. He resents me because he does not have time to see his friends. I resent him for being so untidy and making work around the house. I resent him for the way he is with the DC. I resent him for his moods, for being snappy and unsupportive of me and the DC. He resents me for being impatient and pissed off with him. It is basically just one whole round of years and years of resentment. This means that we are shit to each other. I cannot stand him near me, I cannot stand him touching me, I am too bloody tired and angry. We have been together for 10 years, and have not had sex for 4. We do not share a bed and have not done for about 2 years now - one is always on the sofa with a child. The arguments are the same every weekend. Nothing ever gets resolved, nothing ever moves on. He keeps saying he wants to sort things out - I tell him that he has doen "x" that has annoyed me - he says he won't do "x" anymore, 24 hours later he does "x", I get angry and shout at him, he accuses me of being angry and aggressive because I scream - I tell him, that if he hadn't done "x", then it wouldn't have happened he then argues that he was right to do "x" and justifies doing it and so the argument carries on..... "x" can range from leaving his clothes on the floor, being late home for a meal without telling me, being moody and snappy with DC when he gets in, ignoring me, ignoring DC, forgetting to make a phone call he has promised to do and I have giving him several reminders of....ie not massive things but stuff that just generally causes additional stress to a situation that already has enough stress....and I feel that I am being treated like shit.

I don't think the situation is salvagable. I think that any good feelings or love that we started off with has well and truly had the arse kicked out of it now. I think that the marriage has just become a massive ball of bad feeling and resentment and it needs to just end. I don't think councelling is going to help - a) we don't have the time b) we don't have the money c) it is not going to change any of the situation. I have cried, screamed, been depressed, sobbed, walked out but none of it has made any difference. I am not happy. I don't want to live this life anymore. I don't want DC to live this life anymore... DH still thinks this can be sorted out. I don't see how... can anyone suggest a way please?

Siobhan, I've been a teacher and I understand about the non-negotiable amount of work. It has to be done, it's a question of when.

Bottom line is - do you want to salvage this marriage? Life as a single parent would not be any easier. You'd still have all the school work, all the house work and running around, less time with the DCs, and less money. If you are looking for an excuse to ditch your DH then you'll justify it any which way. If you want to find solutions then you can.

Regarding your illness- how recent was the surgery? I can see how the situation around you recuperating at home was difficult for both of you- you trying to recover, and DH struggling to do everything at home as well as all the work. Did you go back to work before you realistically should have? If your medical issues are affecting your ability to do your job- and it sounds as if they are- then I think you should consider asking your doctor to be signed off for a couple of weeks while you recover from the medical setbacks you seem to be suffering from.

Children- you can't stop their clubs, but they sound tired.As do you and your DH. I would really focus on prioritising the sleep issue, the whole sofa sleeping business sounds like a nightmare. I think this is one of the roots of the problem. It'll possibly be hard for a while, but you and Dh need to figure out a way of dealing with the sleep issues that you can both stick to. Can you reorganise clubs, lessons etc to minimise the amount of faffing you do? Do both children do the same clubs at the same time? Could whoever is taking the children to drop-off clubs take some work to do in the car, rather than driving back and forth?

Work- if you are secondary teachers, has your workload eased with exam classes finishing? How much of your gained time have you been able to keep? Are you able to go to management and ask to keep your gained time rather than have it reallocated to other tasks/ whole school initiatives? With the summer holidays coming up, can you negotiate a rota with your DH so you each have say 2 days out of each week when the other will look after the children to enable you to work and plan ahead for the year? For now, how about taking it on turns so that you each have one day at the weekend until say 4pm, while the other entertains the children. Do you share a subject, can you pool resources at all?

Household- I agree about blitzing through the cleaning on a Friday night, I used to do this. I'd suggest drawing up a list in advance and each taking on particular jobs, so there is no argument about who is doing what. If your Dh is part of the process then he isn't being treated like a child- sulking would be acting like a child though. Food- do you batch cook so that on late nights you can get eg a casserole, chilli out of the freezer, or are you stressed about putting a meal together?

Dogs- I understand that you won't get rid of them-are they better nourished than your children though? I think you need to look at feeding them at the value level too. Why can't they stay out in the garden during the day as the weather is mild now? You could look into getting some sort of outdoor shelter (freecycle?). Losing 45 mins at lunchtime to let them out is unnecessary, you could be working.

Logistics- Why not just have 2 packed nursery bags, one in each car? Have an agreement about what you do in the morning, eg one sorts dogs and then puts them outside, the other gets the children ready and takes them.

I feel for you- 2 teachers living together isn't easy!

heyelp - you say:

"OK - so I may get flamed here but....

you are bringing home £400 a month and paying £1100 a month childcare. And for that £400 you are working you ARSE OFF - until 1am in the week and at the weekends as well. PLUS domestic chores.

So you are PAYING £700 a month to be exhausted. Is it really worth it? Is it? I really feel for you here - but must understand these maths."

The OP actually said:

"Debts are from DH being on a much lower salary for years - he has only come into teaching the last couple of years - was in a much lower paid job previously, having to buy out ex from the house (not dc dad) (I know I should have sold the house then but at the time didn't want to move) and from me taking home £300- £400 a month after paying child care for two dc for 5 years. One is still in full time child care and the other after school care - so costs are now down to £800 a month as opposed to the £1100 it was at one point. With paying £600 mortgage, £1100 childcare and DH earning £1400 and me £400 it was impossible not to get into debt."

Did you really think that a Head of Department in a school would be earning £400 per month and paying out £700 in childcare? Really?

Ah, but atswimtwolengths OP appeared to contradict herself by saying first that she is left with £300-400 pm after childcare then suggesting that she and her DH earn £1400 and £400 out of which they pay childcare of £1100 and mortgage of £400. That's how it read anyway.

So actually their combined income is £2900 out of which they pay childcare and mortgage totalling £1700 leaving £1200 pm.

But at £29,000 there'd be a bit of Child Tax Credit, wouldn't there?

i feel sorry for the poor kids

no wonder they have issues to be honest

i know that doesnt help, but you really do have to consider how much you are damaging them with your present lifestyle :(

You have 2 choices here: you can carry on as you are and both end up having a nervous breakdown, then both have no job, and in even worse straits than you are now, or you or DH has to seriously think about leaving their job.

Think of it as a sort of sabbatical. I know being a SAMP does not carry the same social standing as being DOH, but it could be so rewarding for one of you, and could make your relationship with both partner and DCs immesurably better. Plus it would not be forever, just until both DCs are at school fulltime.

Yes, your income will drop, but then so will your outgoings too. The parent who stays at home could then lift some of the burden off the shoulders of the working parent, ie household chores, shopping, cooking, school runs, etc.
I know a lot of people on here will probably say that this is not the 1950s and that a woman is just as entitled to follow a career as a man, but this is not a career....going to work to pay for childcare is crazy when one of you could do the job so much better.
Just think how well this would impact on your relationship with your DCs: you could take DC to school, spend valuable time with DC2 at home, no after school care for DC1 so more time to spend together there too.

I realise you have both worked hard to get to your positions at work, but this would only be a temp solution and it would allow you all a breathing space. Also, could you not look into getting a position at DCs or DHs school as that might make things easier?

God I hope I don't come over as patronising, but you really do have to make some big changes here or you will all continue to suffer.

The average salary for a HoD is over 40k. A colleague of mine who has been teaching for four years has just gained her first HoD position and is going to be on over 40k - so even allowing for inexperience, the salary of one HoD is significantly more than 29k, never mind both.

The joint income of two HoDs would be around 80k p/a before tax.

Regardless of how much you should or should not be earning, is it really worth damaging your health, wrecking your marriage, not having time for DCs just for the sake of a job? (Ducks and prepares to be flamed)

Oh no, coproxamol, I agree with you!

But someone else suggested that they were on a joint income of 29k I was just pointing out that it's likely to be over double that.

Seems pointless speculating on salary though if the op has given up and gone away.

sorry, pressed post too soon.

I also mentioned way back that it needn't be the dh who continues working, it's just as possible that he could give up work and stay at home, especially as he was last in to teaching.

Am rather stunned that anyone would work those hours for what amounts to £400 a month though.

Team, I have no idea how much they should be earning, as a SAHM I am so not in the salary loop. But I wish our income was £29k.

I just don't think that any job, no matter how important it may be, is worth losing so much over.
OP AND her DH need to get their priorities in order...namely their DCs.

As for the dogs, I'm not even going to go there, although I would add that whichever parent stays at home, they could look after the dogs instead of getting someone to come round or ''going home at lunch to let them out''...madness.

Dog-flap?

Sorry, ended up with migraine monday night, so was out of it yesterday and still feel rough today. I haven't read all the comments yet as cannot concentrate on text too well at minute, but quick response to a couple of questions so that you don't think am not appreciating your responses:

1. joint total take home (after tax, ni, pensions) is about £3100 a month out of that £1600 goes on mortgage, utilities - water, gas, elec etc council tax, monthly car ins, house ins, life insurance, phone (£20 a month for two phones), debt repayment and some other things like that are escaping me right now (bit fuzzy - after effect of migraine and the tablets I took for it), £850ish goes on child care (varies depending on how many after school pick ups needed that month), leaving us about £700 for everything else including petrol, food, clothes, dog stuff etc. Hod salary is not £40,000 - salary depends on how long you have been teaching and size of your dept. I am on £31000, DH £24000 (he is not in a state school and not been in teaching long), if we were on £80000 joint we would be laughing!!

2. dogs are on cheapest dog biscuits I can get - I buy massive bags from lidl. No idea where someone got idea that they are better fed than DC and I am pretty annoyed that you would say that.

I asked for ways to help get rid of this resentment between us, I have answered the money questions as it seems to be a stumbling block in some peoples understanding of what I am saying.

3. also yes I did work those hours to take home £400 a month (after childcare) as I said to keep my job, I am in a secure job in a good school with good colleagues - I have worked in some different schools that were not fun to work in (not due to the students - usually staff) and have learnt when you find a job you like you keep hold of it! I am not as cheap as an NQT therefore the chances of getting another job in a similar good school, within a reasonable commuting distance are not great. Also £400 a month is the food, for the month so it was worth doing from that point too.

Also - operation was 3 months ago. Was off afterwards for 8 weeks, should have been resting for most of that, but only was able to rest for about 3 weeks before having to drive, sort DC, house etc. DH was ok at first and took 2 weeks off to help me but, then I had to get up and do stuff as he was back to long days and meetings - he did finish early when he could. Had hoped the op would help with my back and the knock on effect of the migraines but after yesterday it seems not - damn!

Sorry - I based my speculations about salary on personal experience as well as a website which gave the average salary of a HoD as 42k.

It certainly doesn't sound as if your DH's salary is worth the stress your family is under - he wouldn't be on much less than that without the management role and his workload would decrease considerably. Maybe that is the way to go to salvage the situation? - him step down from HoD and thus be able to take on more of the home front?

Dog-flap?

Okay, so YOU earn £31k, right?
So surely you could survive on that if DH took a year out as a SAHP?

buzz, can we drop the dog-flap now, it's starting to grate!!!

We put it in the door, not drop it But ok.

ha ha

Also, I am sorry if it looks like I have rejected some suggestions out of hand, it is just that I really have thought and thought about this and tried to come up with solutions, so have tried whatever I could think of, I am at a loss now as to what new to try - hence asking for suggestions. If the answer of how to do this was obvious then I would have done it. However, by obvious I mean obvious and something I can live with - I cannot live with myself having innocent animals put down - DH is able to look after himself - they are not so in my mind I need to look after their welfare - food, water, beds - before his. He can get himself food and water, he can get himself a house to live in that is safe, they can't.

DC - also come before him (though after dogs obviously) they need me to give them food, a home etc. At the end of the day he is at the bottom of the pile, as crap as that sounds. Who do you save first in a fire? Those who are helpless and depend upon you - them not him, it doesn't mean I hate him, it just means he is capable of looking after himself. I need to work to be able to keep everyone dependent on me safe and fed, so yes, my marriage comes after my job. Is that going to cause me to get slated here? Yes, DC need a Dad, but they need security of a house and food and a calm, safe situation first.

I hope I don't sound a horrible person saying that, I am just a very worn down person. I want to go to sleep for a long, long time.

DH can see his Mum if he wants. I do not stop him seeing her. He chooses not to see her because he does not know what to say to her and does not want to listen to her talk about her neighbors, daughters, friends, cousins hernia operation. I will not see her because I refuse to after she spent years trying to persuade DH to leave me and his son to go and live with her. I do not let my DC see her after she spent ages telling me (with DS1 in earshot) that I should not have any more children as it is not right to have more than one child, then after I had DS2, her topic changed to how fantastic a Mum her sisters daughter was with her kids and how I didn't compare to her etc. She was told several times by me how rude all of this was, then sevaral times by DH and that she needed to stop doing it. She didn't, I had enough. DH resents me I think, because she only was like this when I was around and he does not know how to stop her - that's because she wants him to herself!!! I feel sorry for her, her husband was her life - she lived for him and through him, when he died she was left and lost - I can see that the obvious thing to do in her mind in her grief was to move DH in to fill his place, but I got in the way, so she hates me. However, I can't deal with that, I don't know how.

We have a dog flap, had to board it up - oldest dog (blind/deaf one) got confused and wedged herself half way through with the flap door stuck in the back of her neck (she got half way through and tried to reverse if she had kept going forward she would have been fine!) and got very distressed. Luckily was at night so we heard her and rescued her but if it had been daytime when we were out she would have really hurt herself. But annoying as up until then it was very useful to let them go in and out as they wanted!

TD - yes I see your point - he has only just started to go up this ladder though (after career change 2 years ago following low paid jobs) and is in an organization with room to go up - he therefore wants to make a good impression and progress. He has just started in the last year to get his confidence about his work and I do not think he will give that up easily! I'm sorry - again you have a solution and I am saying "yes, but"
. I keep coming back to we need to either split up and stop annoying each other or hold tight for a while until finances prove. Thank you for making suggestions! I do appreciate you listening to me.

I need to go back and read the other posts - I take it someone keeps saying "dog flap"?

Arse. That was my one bright idea.

You sound really low, I hope you can find some way to get some more rest.