Can this be salvaged? Long - sorry.

[Siobhan487]

Hi! Can I just have opinions on whether this is salvagable or not:

DH and I are both secondary school teachers and manage departments. This means we both work long hours and bring home a lot of work to do at evenings and weekends, it is just the nature of the job. We also have two DC 6 and 4. We also have several pets - all elderly from before the time before DC. We have no family support - neither of us have siblings. He has a Mum - who dislikes me and has tried to break up our marriage (wanted DH back at home with her after her husband died - so tried to get rid of me, initially openly and when that didn't work in an underhand way) so we don't see her and my Dad is elderly and although will support when asked is not able to look after children or be left with them. I have been ill for the last two years - have pushed myself on with medication/heavy doses of significant painkillers up until 2 months ago when I had fairly majory surgery which I am still getting over, but hopefully will have solved a lot of the medical issues I was having. It will take me another few months to be at a stage where I have recovered though.

The issues:

1. Every weekend is shit. It starts on Friday night when we seem to go through a battle because we both know we have a lot of work to do before Monday, it is impossible to do the work with DC around - so the arguing starts about who is looking after DC and who is going to get to do their work. As we also both work there is the laundry, housework and other domestic admin that needs doing too. Again another cue for an arguments. DC are wingy and whiny all weekend because they want to go out and do stuff. But they end up spending all weekend being bored at home, because both of us are too busy to take them out - either working or domestic stuff. The nature of our jobs are not that the work can be left either - it has to be done - we both work long hours in the week, as well as straight through lunch, any non-teaching time etc. I like my job, I am good at my job, I don't like the admin/waste of time bits of my job, but that is what the job is now, so to a large extent you have to just accept that.

2. Sleep. Due to the amount of work etc that we have the only way to do it is at night. The illness has made me very tired and run down, so I also fall asleep a lot and can't seem to work through the night as well as I used to. I used to push on through until 1am/2am a few nights a week - get up again at 6am and cope with it. DH still does this - I can't, I try but due to all the medication I end up asleep my head on the desk or in a state the next day that I am dangerous to drive. The DC don't sleep very well. The youngest is often up in the night - we aim to have them in bed by 7.30pm, but it is often later, due to not getting in until gone 6pm with them from childcare by the time we finish work and then several days DC have clubs (Beavers, swimming lessons etc) that go on until 7pm, so by the time we get back it is later, so often is 9pm or later before they are in bed. The youngest then often gets up 2 or 3 times a night. Sometimes they will go back to bed - but need to be sat with for a while, again taking time up, which frustrates whoever is sat with him as they need to be marking or whatever prep they need to do. Sometimes youngest is put on the sofa in front of CBeebies whilst one of us is sat next to them trying to work and majority of nights this is where the youngest and the parent end up spending the night. This means everyone is bad tempered and ratty.

3. Money - we have debts. We are stuck in a house that nobody is happy with - too small, bad area, tatty etc. We have debts so do not have money or means to take out a second mortgage and we are completely unable to sell the house because of the issues with the area, an estate agent said we may be able to rent it out but no chance of selling it for several years. We both need to work the hours/jobs we do, because we cannot allow our income to drop at all, as we are barely scraping by at the minute with debt repayments, massive childcare costs etc. We both have ancient (worth about £200) cars, no public transport - rural Devon, everything is cut back to the bone that can be. We don't go out, we don't smoke or drink. The only money spent on socialising as such is the DC's clubs Beavers/swimming lessons etc.

4. Dogs - We have 5 elderly dogs. Yes, I know we shouldn't have them but they are from before we got together, before DC, - I had 3, he had 2. They now range from 11 years to 16 years, one is blind but has can hear, another is blind and deaf, another has major skin allergies and needs medication to control that, the other two are just old. They take work, time and money. They cost in vets bills/medicine and special food due to illness. They cannot be re-homed due to their age/health. I don't want to rehome them either, they deserve to live their lives out in the place they are familiar with. We commited to them when we got them and that was for life, so need to keep them and look after them for as long as possible. I didn't know that life would end up as it has when I got them. I pay a lovely lady one day a week to come in and let them out during the day which is all I can afford and the other days I have to dash back from work myself to do it.

5. DC - Eldest DC has SEN - we are battling with school to get these recognised. I know what is wrong - I am trying to get it recognised by the school so that they can give him the support he needs. His confidence is being affected by this, he needs time spending with him, I don't have the time he needs.

I am sorry that was long - trying to lay it all out so you can get an idea of the situation. Basically the problem is that we are now both HUGELY angry and resentful of each other. We are both pissed off, tired and sick of everything. We do not go out at all, neither of us has any hobbies. I like to read books, but if I ever sit down to read for a few minutes - I will either get disturbed by DC or DH will come past and look at me and I feel guilty and get up to do a job. These last few weeks I have had to be in bed due to the surgery. He has resented me being in bed, he has made me feel lazy and useless and I have ended up getting up when I shouldn't and doing jobs, driving, running DC around, looking after DC when I shouldn't have been - the op I had takes 6 weeks to get over for a straight forward one - mine was not straight forward - there were complications - I was told I should take 8 - 10 weeks off work and then take life very slowly for another 4 weeks. I ended up having to drive 4 weeks after the surgery in order to get DC as DH was unable to leave work early enough to get them, it hurt a lot (physically) but I had to do it. I resent him for that. I resent him for not allowing me time to heal. I resent him for making me feel guilty about doing what the hospital had told me to do after the surgery ie being in bed. He resents me for not having the time to concentrate on his career. He resents me for him not having a relationship with his Mum. He resents me because he does not have time to see his friends. I resent him for being so untidy and making work around the house. I resent him for the way he is with the DC. I resent him for his moods, for being snappy and unsupportive of me and the DC. He resents me for being impatient and pissed off with him. It is basically just one whole round of years and years of resentment. This means that we are shit to each other. I cannot stand him near me, I cannot stand him touching me, I am too bloody tired and angry. We have been together for 10 years, and have not had sex for 4. We do not share a bed and have not done for about 2 years now - one is always on the sofa with a child. The arguments are the same every weekend. Nothing ever gets resolved, nothing ever moves on. He keeps saying he wants to sort things out - I tell him that he has doen "x" that has annoyed me - he says he won't do "x" anymore, 24 hours later he does "x", I get angry and shout at him, he accuses me of being angry and aggressive because I scream - I tell him, that if he hadn't done "x", then it wouldn't have happened he then argues that he was right to do "x" and justifies doing it and so the argument carries on..... "x" can range from leaving his clothes on the floor, being late home for a meal without telling me, being moody and snappy with DC when he gets in, ignoring me, ignoring DC, forgetting to make a phone call he has promised to do and I have giving him several reminders of....ie not massive things but stuff that just generally causes additional stress to a situation that already has enough stress....and I feel that I am being treated like shit.

I don't think the situation is salvagable. I think that any good feelings or love that we started off with has well and truly had the arse kicked out of it now. I think that the marriage has just become a massive ball of bad feeling and resentment and it needs to just end. I don't think councelling is going to help - a) we don't have the time b) we don't have the money c) it is not going to change any of the situation. I have cried, screamed, been depressed, sobbed, walked out but none of it has made any difference. I am not happy. I don't want to live this life anymore. I don't want DC to live this life anymore... DH still thinks this can be sorted out. I don't see how... can anyone suggest a way please?

I really feel for you. You sound incredibly stressed and it must be tough. I also don't think getting rid of the dogs is the answer.
Please follow the excellent advice of the teacher above re keeping control over your work-life balance and putting your own children first. The overworking seems to be the worst of the problems, as it sucks your time and energy to tackle anything else. You must both put limits on the out-of-hours working.
I also think the suggestion that you and your dh have an on-going agreement that (where necessary) one of you will do your weekend work on a Saturday, and one on a Sunday, is a good one. That way at least you can plan your weekend and avoid the significant stress of arguing about who works when - and make sure that you each do something fun with the dc on your day with them (work the household chores around the fun stuff, rather than the other way round).
It is impossible for you to take a clear view of your marriage when you are both so stressed and tired. Do what you can to sort out the other stuff first, starting with some time off sick, as others have suggested.
I hope it all works out for you.

Oh OP you sound absolutely snowed under

But please do remember this halfterm is always the hardest. You have the summer holidays with your whole family to look forward to. You owe it to your DH to make a go of things properly over the summer, relax, spend time together with and without the DCs, talk to your DH about everything and with time, space and a clear head, work out how you can rebalance your life.

Would you consider going part-time? I know you feel pressure from all directions at the moment, but your decision to keep working when your DC were young has already cost you dearly financially, please don't let it cost you your marriage. I'm sure you're an amazing teacher but no-one, absolutely no-one, should put their career above their health and the people they love.

You don't want to be an old woman looking back on your life and realising you prioritised work over family and health.

And if you're back at work, please get signed off until summer. It's KS3 time now, nothing matters now exam season is here!

Siobhan You are understandably getting very overwhelmed with your situation and it looks like you can't see the wood for the trees, so to speak. You need to break these issues down and deal with them individually.

1. As others have said, get yourself signed off work. You need to get yourself well and you are not going to do that working 60 hours a week. Presumably as a teacher you get 6 months full pay sick leave, so see if your doctor will sign you off until September. This will allow you to get your homelife in order as well as get better.

Take the advice of the other HOD's that have posted here with regards to your workload management for when you go back, limit what you do to a reasonable amount - if you have staff which you manage, get them to do more. Call it staff development - it's what I do

2. Go to the debt management board on Moneysaving Expert. Complete a Statement of Account and let the lovely folks over there help you out. Take some time out to read some of the diaries and other stories - they are really quite inspiring. They are a great bunch of people, most of whom have been or are going through what you are with regards to debt. It may be that you need to go onto a debt management plan, which may screw your credit rating for a while, but if it gives you a better quality of life, it is a small price to pay. When you have a solid plan in place for tackling the debts, put the worry about the to one side:

Moneysaving Expert Debt Free Wannabe Board

3. Also have a look at the Old Style Money Saving Boards while your over there. Not only will it help you with saving money, but there are some really good ideas of cheap and fulfilling things you can do with kids and also possible hobbies to give you something to use as a wind-down.

Moneysaving Expert Old Style Board

4. Use the Fly Lady threads on here and over on MSE to get the house sorted and decluttered. I know you said your DH didn't want a rota, but take some time to sit down and explain how it will help you. Don't put it across to him in a way that sounds like you don't think he pulls his weight (even though it sounds like he doesn't). Just calmly explain, that you need him to do this, in order for you to run the house.

5. Sort out your childs sleep problems. Post on the sleep board and take some time over the next few weeks to sort the issue out. In the long term you will all feel better if he is sleeping through.

6. Decide to do something fun as a family at least once a week - even if it is just a trip to the park or a day playing board games / watching DVD's. Discuss with your DH and put a rule in place that Sunday's 10am - kids bed time is family time and no housework or school work will be done.

Likewise, put one Friday or Saturday night aside every fortnight where you and DH will have a night together. If you can afford it, get a babysitter and try and go out. If not, quiet meal when the kids are in bed and TV / DVD or even just talk.

If things are really that bad, see if you can get sessions with relate - I think they are free - or see if your doctor can refer you. Even if you go on your own initially, it will help you to get your head clear about exactly what it is you want.

7. Putting aside the issue of whether or not to keep the dogs (I can see both sides), let them out in the morning and then when you get back. Rushing back at lunchtime is not doing you any good and if they are that old and frail, they will be fine. When you get back from work, get the kids to have a run round in the garden with them. The fresh air will do both dogs and kids good.

I know it is hard, but you really need to try and compartmentalise each issue. When you can get the day to day things / routines and debt into perspective and your health back, it will give you the time and energy to focus on your relationship with your DH.

Good Luck x

Wonderful advice from atswimtwolengths, you do not sound well and you do need some time to get better.

I was in a similar situation as you about 18 months ago although not as desperate. I had health issues, worked p/t in a job that was f/t and then some, felt resentful of DH all the time as I was the one doing all the household stuff at home, felt too tired to interact properly with DS and saw him as a burden.
I made changes, I reduced responsibilities and hours at work, a year down the line from this I feel 100% happier.Yes I do sometimes get annoyed when DH manages to forget DS's lunchbox ( how hard can it be when he only picks him up once a blinkin week) but because I'm not completely stressed it doesn't overwhelm me. BTW I thought your description of your average morning was very well written, and made me laugh although I can see how frustrating it must be.

Time is precious and unless either you or DH do something about your jobs then the situation will not change.

Get yourself signed off from work until next term, I know you will say that you cannot, but you sound at total breaking point, take some time to recover physically and mentally, then go to the CAB and try to work out a more realistic repayment plan, then see where that leaves you in terms of income requirement.

No job is worth the amount of stress and unhappiness that yours is giving you. Please - take some time off, review your situation with a clearer head.

I personally think that when you have children, if you are in a couple, then it is unrealistic to have both halves of the couple in a demanding career. Something has to give - the children shouldn't, the marriage ending won't actually make that much difference, so it must be the job that changes.

just something that hasn't been mentioned, I think.
Try and get your younger child to sleep for the night in their bed. try a sticker chart and just refuse to get up with them. Four is old enough to be firm about it.
I also thought that you should have one day each at the weekend to work. Must admit that "the dogs are non-negotiable" thing shocked me, and I am a dog lover.

I'm shocked by the number of people berating the OP for not being prepared to get rid of her dogs. I fully understand why she would find that impossible to do - I certainly would. But some people think if she got rid of them all her problems would be solved. That is clearly not the case. I sympathise with you so much Siobhan and you sound like you have done a fantastic job to keep going under the weight of so much stress. But clearly you can't carry on like this. There is some excellent advice on this thread (if you weed out the unhelpful and sanctimonious rubbish). I hope you have time to take stock over the summer and sort out something which works for you and your family.

I have not read all the replies but I feel for you.

I was in a very similar situation last year re overwork, small messy house, children, debt and I hated and resented my husband, thought of splitting up. I was suffering from depression and after getting treatment all the issues are still there but I now see them differently and don't think if I got rid of DH everything would be all right.If you got rid of the dogs I don't think your life would get magically easier either, probably would be better to reduce hours at work but if you really can't then there will be a way to deal with work pressure better than you're doing now-that's not a criticism because I was obsessed with work and although went part time after being ill I have a completely different attitude to it now.

I would find a depression test online and take it and see if it indicates you are depressed and then go to your GP.You may not be , just very stressed, but don't make any big decisions now. Presumably holidays are coming up soon? If they are, prioritise enjoying yourself- going out doing cheap or free things with DH and DC. Ignore the mess in the house, it will still be there when you get back!One of the things that struck me was how little pleasure you are getting out of life, and that was what I was like, I thought I had to just work all the time, but you need to do things you will enjoy, or you will get more and more stressed and depressed and less able to cope with things.

You ask if the relationship is salvageable -yes, but you have to choose to salvage it. That means giving it some priority. it is clear to those of us on the outside that you are (both, but mostly you) very stressed and tired and working too hard. That is the reason your relationship is under strain (also, you don't seem to be good at working as a team to cope with the stresses together- you are just competing with each other and that is ending up with you feeling that he is just one more stress in your life you could do without). So, to save your relationship, you need to remove some of the other pressures on your time and money, and you need to talk to each other about how you make your life better. Really, do you want your children to grow up being shuttled between two houses and when they get older, to realise that you prioritised your dogs and your work over them living with two parents?? Really??

Regarding weekends - you need some ground rules about what time to give to work and what time you will spend together. For example, you could each cover half of Saturday with the children (say morning to after lunch, then the rest of the day into the evening, that way each of you would get a decent stint of 6 hours ish). Then Sunday as a family. REgarding chores - do you feel there is a reasonably fair split? it may be easier to each take responsibility for defined things (e.g. you do dogs, he does laundry) - then you can let go (and you have to really let it go) of the things that aren't your responsibility, rather than running around after him checking up and redioing things that aren't done according to your spec. You do have to cut him (and you) some slack about domestic chores. i am sure most of us who are trying to juggle two careers with children can recognise your stresses - but you have really got to recognise when something has to give. You are so snowed under and filled with imperatives (must keep dogs, must keep working ridiculous hours, must keep the dcs going to clubs) that you aren't able to stand back and work out what your priorities are.

And if you have really got to the point where you are saying dogs rather than dh, then you really need to get yourselves down to relate. You owe it to your children. And, remember, if you do split, you will probably find that even your dh's imperfect contributions to family life were helpful. how will you get your work done on weekends when its just you and the kids? How will you do pick up and drop off on your weekdays? Never being able to leave the house without both of them when it is your day?

Hi Siobhan - you sound completely and utterly overwhelmed and unable to see the wood for the trees.

First of all about your debt - I completely echo those who pointed you to the moneysaving expert board. I would also suggest asking to speak to a proper debt counsellor with the CAB (not just one of their generalist advisors). You do not have to be managing to meet the minimum payments to get a debt plan in place. Debt advisors can work out sensible budgets which give enough money for your necessary priority bills (mortgage, council tax, utilities, food and reasonable living expenses including for entertainment/kids clubs etc) and negotiate how the rest is paid to your creditors/get you on a interest free repayment plan etc. It really is worth exploring properly.

With regard to your DH. Do you know what you do and don't want? TBH I could understand if you wanted to call it quits. I think without some of the shock horror on here over you prioritising your dogs, had you posted about the way your DH behaves/lack of support when you were ill without mentioning the dogs you would have had a lot more sympathy.

You say that your DH still thinks that this can all be sorted out. When does he say this - how much/how deeply have you talked about your situation/what sounds like the perilous state of your relationship? Do you believe that he means that it can be sorted out (ie made better) or simply that he thinks the thought of splitting will be too exhausting so he would rather preserve the status quo for the moment?

What would you rather do with regard to your DH? Do you love him/want to be with him/want to put the effort in that trying to salvage this will take? Do you LIKE him? Are there any romantic feeling left for either of you? Four years is a long time to not to have had a sexual relationship.

You say that in a choice between your DH and your dogs DH would lose.

In a choice between your DH and your job who would lose?

Something HAS to give here Siobhan - only you can decide what.

I do sympathise. I do know what it is like - I was almost there (minus the DC and cats instead of dogs). In principle I would never have chosen my job over my exH but in reality I did it every single day until it was too late as I just couldn't see a way to say "no" to the job so I said no to my husband instead until there was nothing left to salvage as we just did not like each other anymore. At the time I would have said that I had no choice but looking back I see that I had many choices - I just didn't want to make them couldn't find the time or vision to even see that there was indeed a choice albeit one that took some bravery. To be honest now that it is all over, although I regret the long slow dying of my marriage (and also quick brutal actual death at the end) I actually just feel glad that it is over and however cowardly have just taken the lessons learned into my new life and marriage. No children of course makes the fall-out much less and taking the easy option more acceptable.

You are chosing the job every day over your DH. That might be a decision you stand by but what about over your children? You know, a decision you make now does not have to be forever - a career break, even a short one perhaps to get you to the point where LO goes to school?

BTW - I know that having a DH around who does not do enough around the house etc can be soul destroying. I used to walk in the house after an exhausting day at work and just feel no sense of relief or homecoming because of the state of it and the lack of effort on the part of my exH. It's horrible. Add to that the ignoring you and the DC and snapping etc. I really do sympathise and can understand why he might not obviously be one of the things you would not see as "non-negotiable".

Will the summer holidays give you any respite - time to reassess/time to get the house in order (much easier to keep tidy than get tidy - broken window syndrome on a micro level etc), reconnect with DH etc? Why have you not taken the sick leave from work that you clearly need?

The issue here is that your dh has in effect given up. He still does things but it is half hearted and you end up with more work.
Tyou need to give him back some responsability for what he does. Swap w Ho Is taking the dcs to school and nurse. Leave him dealing with the problems linked w doing things in half.
A lot of good advice on how to change things around but somehow I do not think It will help if your sh does not change his attitude too.

Only one thought wrt whether your maarriage is salveagable.

How is your relationship during the holidays? Does your DH still irritate you? Or do you have loving feelings towards each other and make time for each other then?

If it is the former, then you can sit down and work out how (following the excellent advice given by PPs) you can make it work during the rest of the time.

If it is the latter, then you can start making decisions based on that.

Gah.

That'll teach me to try and post when being nagged by a 3 year old.

Just reverse the 'former' and 'latter' please!

Capet,Not sure dh has given up, OP says what he does in the morning for example but it isn't good enough for her, when she complains he says he was trying to help, that doesn't sound like a man who has given up but a man who is also struggling.

He thinks it can be sorted so he is not the one giving up.

A pithy point but, OP, I can't see how this can possibly be better if you were a single mum.

You need to sit down with your DH, acknowledge that it's shit for both of you, and work out a rota.

DH and I try to get all housework etc out of the way on a Friday night when DC is in bed so that it isn't hanging over our heads over the weekend. It's not the most glamorous of Friday night activities, especially if you are knackered, but if you power through you can achieve a lot then enjoy the time with your DC over the next couple of days.

cjel, she is describing a man who does things in half, bring the dcs back from nursery but 'forget' their bag in the boot, put the dogs' bed out but 'forget' to bring them back inside.
All these can be just isolated incidents and be totally acceptable.
They can also be the sign that this guy just isn't 'there' anymore and can not be bothered. My H has gone though a phase like this and it is very difficult to deal with. On the outside, there are all the appearances that there is a man there ready to help, wanting to be involved etc... but the truth is that it was the sign that he just did not want to there anymore. So he was doing things 'because he ought to' but was doing them badly because at the same time he couldn't be arsed/was resentfull he had to do all that.
Reading the OP, that's what I saw because there seems to be so many 'incidents' of him forgetting things or not doing them completely and then leaving it all to her to sort out.
Yes both the OP and her H are probably extremely tired, fed p and overworked. but one partnet there is doing all the running around and the other seem to be creating more problems that he is solving. And that IS an issue.

Btw, I am completely against the idea that she is choosing her job over her Dh and children. What about him? Is he choosing his job over his wife and children too?
I think this is not right that the Op is given the advice to quit/reduce her hours to solve the family problems with the idea that her H will carry on with his job as normal.
The OP has the same right as him to want and have a job she loves. She has been doing it for longer and at least this should be a joint decision between them and something that she is happy to do. Not something that she will do because she has been made to feel guilty about. In a situation like this, it's not just the OP who needs to reassess the workload/family dynamic but also her H.

OK - so I may get flamed here but....

you are bringing home £400 a month and paying £1100 a month childcare. And for that £400 you are working you ARSE OFF - until 1am in the week and at the weekends as well. PLUS domestic chores.

So you are PAYING £700 a month to be exhausted. Is it really worth it? Is it? I really feel for you here - but must understand these maths.

Carpet I agree that the assumption should not be that it is the op that reduces hours - but I think this family is going to fall apart unless one or both of them does so.
People are focusing on op's options for action because she is the one who is seeking advice.
I also think we can't tell really what the dynamic is behind the H's 'half hearted' contributions to family life. I can say that I quite often feel similarly frustrated with DH, and he with me - but that our relationship flourishes more when we remember to appreciate what we each ARE doing, and cut back on the criticism on what we are not. that is vital to each of us feeling supported and appreciated - something that the op is clearly desperately in need of (as is probably her dh, but somewhere along the way they have lost the ability to support each other emotionally - maybe counselling could help that as they seem to have got into ingrained habits).

I actually suggested that whoever is earning the least should be the one to step down from the management role at least - not that it should be the OP.

I agree with elliott that we have no way of knowing why her husband acts the way he does. I am always wary of the way some posters automatically see these threads in a purely black and white light - the OP is entirely right in everything she says about the relationship and the way it works and her husband is automatically in the wrong.

How can we judge a relationship's dynamic based on one person's (understandably) subjective reporting of it? We can't.

but surely it is more black and white than that.

I am a working mum. I LOVE working. But OP's DH is earning a LOT more than OP and she is paying out more than double what she earns to childcare.

This sounds a desperate situation. I am totally FOR women working - but surely if the maths don't work and someone is about to break - it is simply black and white no? The kids are suffering.

The childcare should be split between both wages equally btw. So the OP is actually earning double what she pays for childcare.

I would not advise quiting work as some kind of martyrdom. The job is important financially now, and will become more important in the future.

However a break sounds like it would be helpful, and a different time/work management strategy.

heyelp they are both in the same job, they must be earning roughly the same (op probably more as she has been longer in the job than her dh).