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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to Statley Homes" Dysfunctional Families Thread

818 replies

Snowdropfairy · 31/03/2011 14:04

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
November 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
Dawndonna · 17/10/2011 10:11

Lesser (love the name)!
Tell the kids the truth. Mine are 27, 16 and 15. They all know about my mother. She visits once a year, it's the only visit she's allowed and my kids know why she is allowed that one visit, although if I had my way, she wouldn't even be allowed that.
It's hard, really hard, but you say, that actually, she wasn't a pleasant mother, she wasn't kind and that all you learnt from her was how not to parent. Hopefully, yours will respect and understand how you feel and of course they love you and know that you have valid reason for this.
As for staying the answer is No. So your db feels guilty, why should he make you feel that way. You have your life to live, why allow someone abusive to be part of that?
Looks great when it's written down, doesn't it? Applying it however, is a different matter. I'm in my fifties and whilst I have got this far, guilt still dictates the way I behave with the bitch from hell and my siblings.
Do try though. I feel so much better with the once a year thing, she comes for a day, she's not allowed to stay and she knows she has to behave reasonably, although she still tries it on. Fortunately, I have a very strong, caring and loving dh, and she knows it, so one look from him and she's back on track!

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 17/10/2011 10:23

LesserOfTwoWeevils you know that's what your mother taught you speaking when you say that you are lonely and have no prospect of a healthy relationship, right? Of course, there's no guarantee you'll find a nice, available man at the right place and the right time, but for goodness' sake don't decide ahead of time that the prospect is closed to you! You deserve to be treated with respect. Whether or not it happens in a romantic relationship remains to be seen, but you do deserve it.

What would happen if you told your brother: "Do what you want, but I am not going to facilitate our mother moving here.", and told your mother, "I am not happy with you moving here, and I will not be inviting you into my home."?

LesserOfTwoWeevils · 18/10/2011 01:05

Pumpkin, sorry if I didn't make it clear, she is coming for two weeks, I just hate the idea of her invading my house where I can't escape from her.
DB is playing the pity card: this is probably her last visit here, it's only a week, she wouldn't be able to cope with a hotel, etc. It makes me furious that although the reason I can't stand her is because she spent years being horrible to me, now I'm being painted as the mean one for not wanting to be around her.
She has a very passive-aggressive approach and acts meek and helpless...but still always does exactly what she wants regardless of other people's feelings. DB and I literally spent months e-mailing her to say her health isn't up to the journey, but she simply ignored us.
However that works out, I'll try to tell my children about her. Thank you Dawndonna. But the old family dynamic still kicks in: I feel if I have a problem, I am the problem, and I'm afraid my children will start seeing me that way too.
As for the relationship thing: I'm 51, and live in a small country where there's no such thing as Internet dating (not that I would dare try it!). I mostly work alone, know very few people and my acquaintances are arty types. I only know two straight single men: one is a commitment-phobic friend and the other is an ex I should never have gone out with. I only did because there wasn't anyone else! I broke up with my DD's father nine years ago and have only had that one feeble relationship since. Never say never, but it's not looking good.

roadkillbunny · 18/10/2011 01:14

I haven't read much of this thread but have 'heard' of it and had it mentioned and thought maybe I am ready to dip my toe in if that is okay?

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 18/10/2011 09:12

Of course, bunny. Pull up a chair and spill it out, whenever you're ready.

Dawndonna · 18/10/2011 09:15

Lesser
The problem with the old family dynamic is that it does still kick in, you have to find a way of resolving that, and it's damn hard, it still does here too, which is why I haven't told her to piss off out of my life completely, however, if you can try to be strong, it can be managed. Start off with No, not this time, I'm busy, then the next time it becomes easier to say No. You are not the problem, you may well have been told that you are, and if you're told it often enough, you believe it. The other side of that is, hey, what if you are the problem, does it matter?
As for the kids, trust me, telling them the truth, in a calm and rational manner really does help. Just little bits, mine asked when they were young and it started off with, 'well, my Mother wasn't very kind to me' and got more detailed as they got older.
My oldest (27) went to stay with her for a week when he was 21. He found her to be delightful, but still accepted that what happened to me, did actually happened and takes the attitude that the time and the distance of being a grandson probably made things easier for both of them to get along reasonably well.
Again, Good luck!

Dawndonna · 18/10/2011 09:16

roadkill
Go for it, when you are ready.
I haven't yet, just little bits. I'm 53 and not quite ready for some things.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 18/10/2011 09:21

Hi Lesser

I would honestly tell your DB where to get off with regards to your mother and tell him that she will not be visiting your home under any circs. Stand firm; your opinions are just as valid as his. He can have her if he feels guilty, you don't want her in your home end of.

As for guilt - sod that. Guilt is a useless emotion. Tell him that as well.

Seems that both you and he are caught up in the FOG re your mother - fear, obligation, guilt.

With regards to your own self and circs what country do you live in, its not Liechtenstein is it?.

Blimey Lesser, the life you have made for yourself needs some fundamental changes as of now but only you can make such a change. Why is it that you know so few people, can you not get a job working with other people instead of just working alone?. You could certainly do with making a completely new circle of friends and you can and should cut out all this dead wood that drags you down and keeps you where you are.

Your mother certainly taught you some v damaging lessons that remain with you to this day but you can dig your way out of this hole you find yourself in.

PeppermintPumpkin · 18/10/2011 10:41

Hello All. Can I run a silly thing by you, ie what should I do with this?

I live 250 miles or so from my mother, and my 2 siblings live a few miles away from her. I've actually been No Contact with her since 20th September(very specific!) after a phone call in which she repeatedly put the phone down on me(I had to keep calling back to get a message through to her about something, but she was in a strop for various reasons and behaved appallingly-long story of course!). -This has a bearing on my question.

Someone from our family's long long past rang up my home and spoke to my dp yesterday. My cousin actually, who I've never met but who knew Mum and Dad as a child and knew my older brother. She is my (deceased) Dad's niece and wants basically to get in touch with mum etc. She left her mobile number.

Seems simple, but I just can't call my mother with this information. I don't know why I feel like this(am I being childish?), and if I, for example, call a sibling and get them to pass it on, my mother will have a field day for weeks if not months with the fact that I didn't call her directly. All this with Christmas looming. etc

WWYD? Should I just bite the bullet and ring her with the number? She doesn't do mobiles so I can't text her.
For some reason I can't see the wood for the trees, pathetic I know.

Thanks x

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 18/10/2011 10:45

Hi Peppermint.

You don't have to call your mother if it makes you uncomfortable.

And: why is it important if your mother has a "field day" about you not calling her directly? You're not in contact with her anyway. Her gloating can't touch you. And even if you do have echoes of her gloating, why should you care? It's her choice to gloat. And it is your choice to go No Contact with her, for reasons that only you need to feel confident about.

PeppermintPumpkin · 18/10/2011 10:53

So, should I pass the number to my bro or sis do you think? I don't want the contact to be missed with the cousin and my family(I'm going to ring her myself anyway for a chat about the past-the good stuff I mean!).

You're right of course-it's just hard to think of my mother going on and on about it to the rest of the family(and me-if I do end up going for Christmas !!!)

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 18/10/2011 11:21

If you want the cousin and your mother to be in touch, yes, do it through a third party.

Or, since you're ringing the cousin anyway, you could give her your mother's contact details (or your brother's, sister's). Let her do the contacting herself. You don't have to be the go-between.

PeppermintPumpkin · 18/10/2011 12:08

Thanks for the clear thinking IMAMPN xx

garlicScaresVampires · 18/10/2011 12:27

Hello, Dawn and roadkill :)

Have you looked at piranhamorgana's posts and links at the beginning of the thread? There are more useful links throughout, as well.

Dawn - you're right about taking things at a manageable pace - and it doesn't matter what age you are! I was encouraged by one of John Bradshaw's anecdotes in Homecoming, about a 70-year-old who joined his workshop :)

Roadkill - thank you for your kind comments on your thread; much appreciated.

LesserOfTwoWeevils · 18/10/2011 13:14

"You could certainly do with making a completely new circle of friends"
Yes, I could, Attila, but how? I've suffered from acute social phobia all my life. I thought I was doing quite well to have any friends at all, actually, and even maintaining those few tentative relationships is a struggle.

garlicScaresVampires · 18/10/2011 13:28

Various strands of various threads have been weaving themselves together in my mind, to form another part of the pattern. Bear with me, please, while I try to think this through ...

There was much talk of 'training' children in my parents' house, and quite a lot of 'teaching'. Not much of caring or even loving, though I don't know if those concepts are much discussed in families anyway. I'm thinking about the training. My dad liked to say "You don't bring children up," - this was said with a sneer - "You train them." Now, part of his job was as a trainer of recruits; we often heard his tales of harsh punishments and rigorous drills. It was clear he applied his principles to us. He was deliberately cruel to animals.

Basically, his approach to children, women and recruits was the approach used in those days by animal trainers (all stick and no carrot, in his case.) His approach to animals was unspeakable. The values were all downshifted, such that other people were 'animals' and animals were ... I dunno, something to be tortured Angry

So. According to my father's already harsh values, I was trained as a pet. (This ties in with things like eating out in the garden 'like a dog' and other stuff, as it happens.) The strands weaving together come from threads by abused women, whose partners, we tell them, "love" them as we love our pets. Dad trained me to be a good pet. I never was a good enough pet; result: I became a well-trained pet with an inferiority complex.

Like a whipped dog, I became an adult attracted to - and attractive to - people who set themselves up as Masters, male and female. I did tricks in hopes of praise, cowered before a raised hand, took scraps gratefully and stayed in my place. I never even knew that other women had lives which were not dogs' lives - only that some had kinder 'masters' than mine.

This is just another take on the "Good Girl" syndrome, I suppose. But it carries an extra level of horror in a way - not only have I got to learn it doesn't matter about being a Good Girl; I must first learn not to be any kind of dog. Confused

It feels damn difficult sometimes. In fact, it usually sometimes feels like I may as well not bother. But there is a "me" in here, un-'trained' and far wiser than my parents, and this "me" deserves a chance to live free and unconstrained by others' demands. I suppose I'll carry on muddling through, giving the 'free me' a voice as best I can, and trust in my process.

It's either that, or sit in the garden and bark Hmm

AttilaTheMeerkat · 18/10/2011 13:32

Hi Lesser

The very real social phobia is likely also as a result of your mother's abusive treatment towards you as well.

Has this area ever been addressed through counselling?. You mention arty type acquaintances rather than friends; these people are really not your friends at all are they. It all sounds like its one way i.e you making contact with them too. They have also kept you where you are. There's a lot of dead wood that needs to be cut out.

You work alone too and that is really not helping you either. You need to get out there into the real world; you are a person worth knowing!. I think you're worth knowing; your writings are intelligent. You are, to paraphrase the advert, bloody well worth it!!.

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 18/10/2011 16:50

Yes Garlic, I think you're totally right (as usual).

Very Sad that you were made to eat in the garden. That's just terrible.

I have had my first dog for the past 6 months, and it's scary how much of myself I see in her. I'm glad that she is eager to please, and belly-crawls to show other dogs she means no harm, but it makes me a bit sick to recognise myself in that, and to think of a) how I was trained (as you say) to be like that by parents who were supposed to nurture the individual in me, and b) how I must come across to normal, well-adjusted people, with my people-pleasing and belly-crawling ways. Ugh. And ouch. That is NOT the real me, and it is not the me that I want to project to others any longer!

LesserOfTwoWeevils · 18/10/2011 18:19

I work in a field where there aren't many office-type jobs at my level. I'm currently trying to get one, although that will lead to complications to do with looking after my DD and working on a project that means a lot to me.
I've been to therapists and to psychiatrists, none of whom have really understood social phobia. One psychiatrist suggested I should make friends by going to a bar alone!
I'm on ADs, think I may finally have been given one that helps a little bit.
"It all sounds like its one way i.e you making contact with them." No, on the contrary, I can rarely muster the courage to do that; often I'm not brave enough to go out with people even when they call and ask me. I have no idea if they're unsatisfactory friends or not, I don't know what's normal. Anyway replacing them with anyone at all would obviously be a very, very large challenge.

roadkillbunny · 18/10/2011 19:50

Just had to say garlic that elements of your post hit me in the face, some of the things you talked about are like reflections of myself, In my younger days (I am better now, have had the joy of a couple of real, good friends who have slowly taught me how to stick up for myself, say no, refuse to be used), one relationship in particular, I allowed my self to be subservient to the much older woman, I was constantly at 'heal' this was all made worse when my (step) Dad died, that woman pushed me down and sat on me, I allowed her to, I felt grateful to her for all the things she offered me, the opportunities she gave me, I was completely and utterly subservient to her, a real pet, a not well kept one either and it was 'Mike' (my bio Father) who trained me that way, and he kept me that way right up until it all exploded in May.
I have never seen those type of relationships I had for what they were before now. I used to honestly believe that nobody wanted to be my friend, why would they, I have nothing to offer, the people who said they were my friends, well, they just mixed with me out of guilt, out of being nice to such a tragic person as myself. It took a long time to pull me round from that, I still feel it at times, I still wonder why people are my friends, I can't understand what they get out of it but I have learnt that it is me projecting these feelings not my friends true feelings, what I hadn't fully realised was the route course of those feelings, now I understand.
My case is an odd one, my Mum is a wonderful, loving and caring Mother and for a short while there I had the most amazing Dad in the world but I lost him, that hurts so much that it burns inside, the pain is physical that he is gone but in the few years we had he saved me, he saved me from the absolute worst of the effects 'Mike' has had on my life, he gave me an understanding of what a loving family is.

KellyKettle · 20/10/2011 18:38

Hello! I think I need to be back on this thread. I joined a while ago under another name. I'll post a summary a bit later but can I please just get this off my chest about my mum?

I posted on this thread :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1315482-Id-suspected-for-a-while-that-my-mother-was-borderline-NPD-but

about the latest episode.

I gave birth on Saturday to DD2. Mum had always expressed a wish to be there (homebirth) which was causing strain because she wasn't taking no for an answer.

Anyway, she'd booked a holiday and was actually just landing back in the UK as DD2 arrived so I just sent a text announcing her arrival 2 weeks before my EDD.

Mum text me 4 hours later at 4am asking if she could call me. I said no.

The next day she came round and said "I wish I'd been there for you". I told her that I hadn't needed her, DH was only there for the big finale and the two midwives had been great. I knew this would annoy her but I was sick of her going on about it.

She replied "I know you didn't need me but I needed you". Whatever the hell that means.

Today, I was in the shower and she kept ringing & ringing. I answered and said I was in the shower and I'd call her back.

She said "just a quick question before you get back in, do you love your mother?".

Not - how's my granddaughter? How are you feeling? Not even, just wanted to tell you how much I love you KellyKettle.

Do you love me.

I sobbed in the shower. How does she manage to make everything about her?

ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow · 21/10/2011 08:46

Because in her world, everything is about her. Other people are not people: they are mirrors to reflect the narcissist's image back to them.

Your role as a daughter is to love your mother. You are a role to her, not a person.

Is the recent birth your first child? Do you think that becoming a mother is why this is coming up again, since now you know what a mother's love should feel like, and you realise you didn't get in in your own childhood?

On the thread you linked to, you mentioned wanting to limit/cut contact, but you are afraid of losing other family members. Have you had more thoughts about that?

PeppermintPumpkin · 21/10/2011 09:51

Blimey Kelly, just skipped through your comments on the earlier thread, your mother really is vampire-like, she sounds exhausting! There really is no changing them is there? They are so totally self absorbed, but I really do relate to you wishing she could actually act like a loving "normal" mother for once and tell you how much she loves you, how much you mean to her. I have wished this for years with my mother, but she never ever will, as it is all about her.

Coming on mumsnet has really helped me understand about projection, about my mother in fact never seeing me and my siblings as individuals-just as reflections of her, esp. when we were younger(easier to control and manipulate of course). Part of my mother's "distress" about me is that she can no longer control me.

It always makes me laugh when she suggests I move back to be near her, even move in to her big house with her(I am 250 miles away from her, yay!). On a good day I can point out to her that this would be ridiculous as we don't get on, and she always says that if only I would "moderate" myself(wtf?) we would get on just fine!! She still needs to feel that element of control, even now I'm 43 with a family of my own!!

The point is, I can mostly laugh(cynically?) about this now, but I struggled to let go of the ideal nurturing mother figure in my head til I realised I was wasting my life waiting for this to happen, she was in effect stealing my life!

I had this realisation close to the time I had children of my own-I tell you, whether they are 4 or 40 there won't be a day that goes by that I won't tell my children I love them. That's the bit I don't get about these mothers! How can they be so ambivalent about their amazing children.....but then you remember, ah yes, they're bloody NARCISSISTS!!!!

Your birth story reminded me of something that happened when my first child was born. My mother wasn't there thank god, but even so I wanted to be the one to tell her that she had a beautiful healthy grandson. After I was put on the ward with him, a nurse came to me really flustered and upset-my mother had rung the hospital and DEMANDED(I can hear her now) to know what the sex of the baby was, how he was etc etc. The nurse had tried to tell her that it wasn't their policy or place to reveal such things but my mother effectively bullied her til she did!! Poor woman. I remember rolling my eyes(too knackered for anything else!) and apologising for my barmy mother. I do wonder if that nurse had a narc mother herself, and that's what put her on the back foot!!

It did upset me later though, that my mother heard it all from someone else. When I had a go about it later, she....yes, you've guessed it DENIED EVER SAYING IT!!!! What can you do in the face of such madness???!!!

Happy Friday everyone!!! xx

PeppermintPumpkin · 21/10/2011 10:22

And garlic, I'm just in bits for the little child garlic banished to the garden. Awful awful awful Sad xxx

KellyKettle · 21/10/2011 12:04

itsMe this is my second child. DD1 is 2.9. I think you're right though, it all only came out once DD1 arrived but the final straw this time was her threatening to cut contact because she thought it would make my life easier. It was rubbish of course, it was just another manipulation and it was the straw that broke the camels back.

When I had DD1 I was diagnosed with PTSD. I had this sense that I wasn't happy with life, like the world wasn't safe. I assumed it was related to DD1s birth and found a therapist. Instead of talking about the birth and it's impact on my life I spent every week talking about my mum.

I was really confused but it was always on my mind and I started googling little bits like "controlling mother" & "abandonment".

My mum knew I was seeing a therapist and she'd call every week and ask what I'd talked about - I would never tell her - and then say "do you talk about me? No don't tell me".

My therapist used to stop me talking about mum - she'd say you can't blame her for how she is, something made her this way so she's a victim too.

I have thought about cutting contact, her and my step dad are just poison. I don't think she would let me if I tried it cold-turkey so we're trying to gradually put distance between us. She hounded me for weeks this time, alternating between Good Cop & Bad Cop.

I called my dsis yesterday to tell her about mums call. I thought she'd agree it was a selfish call but she just said "I think she's had a bad day and needed to hear you loved her".

They visited on Sunday and the MW commented on DD2 sticky eyes, advising we clean them with cotton wool and cooled boiled water.

StepD had hold of DD2 and without even looking at me, said "go to the kitchen and get the water and cotton buds". I just looked at him - oh right, I've gave birth 12 hours earlier but yes, I'll dash around on your orders. Fuck off. I just said no, I'd do it later. He repeated his order and I just said no.

I don't really get him. He's got worse over the last few years. He has become a horrible show off, bragging and criticising.

As a combination they're unbearable.

Think my baby blues have hit today. I keep sobbing when I think about not seeing my
MW anymore. We had an independent MW and she's visited every week for months, was brilliant when I was in labour and during the birth and since. DH calls her the mum I wish I had and it's made me so upset this morning.