"But we took you to Statley Homes" Dysfunctional Families Thread

[Snowdropfairy]

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
November 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

The fact that he has been so patient with Mum is admirable.

When I think of my own nice guy/enabler father, I don't think his patience with my mother is admirable: I think it is the kow-towing of a weak man who will accept unhappiness inflicted on him and on his own children for the sake of a quiet life and companionship.

I know that my father accepts my mother's behaviour as normal because his own mother was a dragon, and his own father was completely disengaged from family life. I still don't find it admirable.

I also know that, if I ever confront them, my father will be genuinely sorry, but he will still prioritise appeasing my mother for the sake of a quiet life over genuinely taking my concerns on board. He will undoubtedly pressure me to make peace because he can't stand disharmony, and also can't stand up to my mother: her needs come first, in his view, even over the needs of his daughters. Like he did when I was in tears because my mother had just told me that she was sorry I was her daughter.

Btw I'm not trying to contradict your view about your father's patience, teacup: just thinking aloud about my own situations and my own feelings about it.

Oh there are such parallels, Puppy. Only last night Dad was telling me to go and say hi to Mum when I got in, even though she is still cross with me for hurting her (and no apology for her own behaviour) and he was approving when I did. Wasn't my choice to do this, I had to do it to please him. I guess there is again no respect for me or my choices - he wanted to try and appease Mum, so I had to go and be all pleasant. But - more fool me - I did.

Do you think of him as a good man, Puppy? And do his apologies irritate you, or mean little? How do you deal with these feelings?

Anyway Mum's latest is that she is now backing out of marriage counselling, which was Dad's last attempt before he moved out. The test will now be whether he goes through with it, or wimps out. I really fear that Mum will call his bluff and he will actually prove himself to be inadequate .

I think it is the kow-towing of a weak man who will accept unhappiness inflicted on him and on his own children for the sake of a quiet life and companionship - snap, except in my Dad's case, also to please God.

Raaaahhhhhhhh

prioritise appeasing my mother for the sake of a quiet life over genuinely taking my concerns on board

This is it exactly meandmypuppy! For me it would be my mum appeasing my dad and that is how I always viewed it before I had DS. I really believed that my mum didn't have a choice and that he would just turn it on her if she didn't just go along with things.

But she did have a choice and I've come to realise that my mum in her own quiet way is not that disimilar to my dad. Yes she went along with it for a quiet life, but what kind of parent allows their child to be treated badly and does nothing except make excuses for them.. I really needed her about a year ago.. just to talk about things. She wouldn't and it was then that I realised she just didn't have those 'mum' things about her. I practically begged her to talk to me about my dad, but she just wanted to brush it all under the carpet.
To put it another way my dad would be mostly be outwardly nasty but sometimes say really nice things, my mum would just NEVER actually say anything nice..does that make sense? Its still the same.

Teacup, your gut reaction is that your dads talk and actions don't add up.. and you're right they don't.. not one bit. Whenever you give him a chance to make it better, he just doesn't. He cries yes, but then what? You're still left feeling crap... he says the right things, except he doesn't cos there's always a bit of a sting in the tail.

Now I think the enabling parent is just as bad.

Like he did when I was in tears because my mother had just told me that she was sorry I was her daughter. thats awful :(
My dad would tell me and my brother when we were little that he wished he'd never had us and we'd ruined his life.... mum would say nothing then and still wouldn't... She could say something like 'but you're the best thing that happened to me' or something that a 'normal' person would feel/say... but she would never say anything like that...

My dad would tell me and my brother when we were little that he wished he'd never had us and we'd ruined his life.... mum would say nothing then and still wouldn't... babyhammock this is also indescribably hurtful.

I think the enabler definitely has something to answer for. They don't have to stay in the marriage - this talk about an opting for the easy life really means the spouse is gutless, because they don't want the hassle/judgement etc for divorcing. It's the kids, who have not chosen to marry the narc nor to be brought up by them, who pay the price. I'm not sure how I'd feel about my partner if he emotionally abused our children (hypothetical situ btw). I hope that for the kid's sake I'd get out. I wish Mum and Dad had divorced years ago.

Thanks teacup x
Getting you to apologise to your mum.... that isn't ignoring it or just going along with it or just not standing up to her.. Its totally enabling/encouraging her behaviour and putting your mum up as the injured party ...

Rather than just do nothing (which could be well...) he chose to get you to apologise which is effectively rewriting who was actually to blame here.. so just how sorry is he, not very by the sounds of it.

That's the thing about enablers, they don't just do nothing they subtly partake in it...

Its just so rubbish isn't it

Do you think of him as a good man, Puppy? And do his apologies irritate you, or mean little? How do you deal with these feelings?

Badly

Yes, I do think of him as a good man. And I also think of him as weak. I love him, and I am angry with him.

It would be easier if I could paint him, and my mother, as all bad, but I can't. Everybody has good and bad parts. I do too.

What I feel for him, for my mother, and for my abusive stbxh is a mixture of anger and of pity. For my parents, I probably also still feel love, somewhere in the mix.

My dad's apologies so far have only been apologising for my mother, not for himself (as I've never confronted him). And those apologies annoy me, yes. Apologies by proxy are meaningless.

My feelings for my father are probably a little more mixed because I was the abused person in an abusive romantic relationship too, so I can hardly castigate him for a mistake I also made. However, the deciding factor in me leaving my H was when I visualised what it would do to children to be raised by him. So I can and do remain angry at my father for not protecting me, even though I can't be completely angry at him for not protecting himself.

When I describe my parents to friends who have no experience of relationships with the disordered, they all ask: "So you're dad is a good guy and you're close to him, right?". They don't get that no, I'm not and I can't be. The enabling parent is also guilty of neglect, of allowing abuse to happen on his or her watch. Their passivity is not innocent.

Enablers are awfully swayed by authority, aren't they?

For your father it's God, teacup. For mine it's any figure of authority: the government, doctors, the encyclopedia, his idolised brother-in-law (also a narc)... I think it's because he's a very fearful little boy who's afraid of being told off, so he'll jump to the demands of anyone who appears to wield authority without question, and with a fair amount of panic. It's pathetic.

I think it's also a need for safety: 'Well, if I do what Mom/God/the municipal notice on recycling says to the letter, then nothing bad can happen to me and I'll be protected and safe.'

Hi all, I think I may have ?spoken? to some of you before on other threads. I'm so glad to see this conversation about enablers - not glad about the effect it has had on you all (and me) but glad to hear that I am not the only one who is affected by an enabling parent. The posts above make me feel incredibly uneasy because they are describing the way my mother and I interact.

I too used to think she was admirable and loving. Now I see she has never acknowledged the damage my father did, let alone her complicity in it and I am finding it hard to keep that out of my mind when I am with her. She acts as if she is a caring person and everyone sees her like that but underneath it?s all about her.

On top of that I have begun to see how entwined in a protective role I have become with her and how parasitic a thing that is. She is incredibly needy, often ill but not major illnesses just colds that seem to go on a long time and seem to be related to how much she sees me - when I go away for a week/weekend she suddenly becomes ill, when i get back she shows no interest in where we have been. She has no friends at all just a few acquaintances, she lives through me and my family. When I?m around her I feel incredibly claustrophobic and oppressed. Our relationship feels like it is about me being responsible for her (I have always felt this way) and, even if I do know rationally that I am not responsible for her it is very hard to back away without epic amounts of guilt.

For me, dealing with my enabling mother is much more confusing than it was dealing with my dad, an out and out crazy, alcoholic narcissist (he died 7 years ago). He damaged us all but I was able to fight him back in my own way. The idea of confronting my mother, an enabler, however, seems totally scary and almost impossible. I don't even know why that is!

I think the confusing thing about enabling parents is you don't really know what you're dealing with. Things just don't quite add up. One set of actions and words don't tie in with another. They don't seem to be able to offer real reassurance of their love or feelings. There's always something missing.

I'm finding it really uneasy too. I feel guilty for writting this and being on this thread...

I felt guilty too babyhammock, immediately afterwriting that last post. You're right about things not adding up

I've been sent a message by my sister saying that my mum has been getting legal advice and help about her rights as a grandmother to see my DD. She was saying that she's prepared to take me to court etc. This is the last thing I need right now if she is serious. Is she able to do that? This is just making me even more angry at her.

Hairywoman - I feel responsible for my Dad's protection and wellbeing too, and always have. But he's had a life before I was born, and I try to see life for him with his perspective - he's twice my age - much much much more than when I appeared and was an adult who could protect him. I also think try to picture me leaning on a niece or one of my students for emotional support - unthinkable! I am the adult. They are not. I have more life experience than them, it's a burden they shouldn't have to carry.

I think puppy is right in that they are not fully bad, but not fully good either. Like most of us. For me it's not about passing judgement on them, although that might be the first step, it's more about liberating myself from unnecessary and unjust expectations of living my life according to someone else's desires for me. Bloody hard work though - so much to process.

Grandparents do not have "rights" to a child, even lesss than non-resident parents do. The law is interested in the rights of the child. I doubt that a court would grant such rights wrt a grandparent who was suing the child's mother - her own daughter - as it would be pretty hard to make a case that it was in the child's interest to force contact with someone so vindictive!

Is your mum loaded? It would cost a fortune to pursue, unless she were being sponsored by a campaign group. Again, they'd be more likely to support a grandparent who was genuinely significant to the child's welfare.

It sounds as though she's just trying to scare you (what a lovely mother ...!) but, honestly, you would just have to show this: [DD said] "you have been doing lots of things with me, but granny says you don't." ... my mum has told DD to ignore me when I tell DD to do something she doesn't want to do or if I tell her off.

Poor you, Bear. It's just vile to know she's even thought of acting against you.

Thanks garlicnutter. I don't really believe it will go through to anything. My sister likes to stir shit up as well, but I don't doubt my mum has considered her options. And she certainly wouldn't be able to afford it. Apparently she's gone through legal aid.

I'm beyond angry at the moment. Mainly because of my sister and how she comes across thinking she's the golden child when I could go on and on as to why exactly she isn't, including blackmailing mum last year saying she would stop her from seeing her DD and get her fired from her work just because my mum was working on a day sister wanted to go out for a night and have her DD looked after...

What angers me the most is that I had told my mum in the beginning that if she let me cool down and just left me alone for a while, I would contact her again when I was ready to talk. But she didn't. Now she's acting like I said I would never let her see her again, although I'll be honest and could quite happily never see her again.

Grrr, bloody families. What's wrong with having a family who loves you and actually get on?

Hi all - I am a general MN lurker but decided to bite the bullet and join this thread. I am struggling with the fallout of DH deciding to cut off his dysfunctional family - apparently struggling much more than he is, actually, and thought I might be able to get some advice here (please)!

I hope it's ok to jump in like this. Basically for the last few years we've had almost no contact with all of his blood relatives, apart from the odd abusive email and phone call. Dh genuinely now just seems happy and relieved that their out of his and our lives, and won't be able to have any influence on our DC.

But for some reason I am struggling to move on from it all. When the big fall out happened, it was with his parents, but his sisters all chose to take their side and deny everything that had happened in the past, even though they suffered at the hands of their parents too. DH seems to accept that it's their choice, but I am so upset that they have dropped us and are now all happy to act as if we never existed, and that we are now the 'black sheep', when we've done nothing wrong. I feel so angry for DH that his family would rather lose him than be honest about the past, and for myself that they fooled me for many years into thinking they genuinely cared about him and me. I only have a small family myself and loved being part of a large family (be it one that acted a bit strangely at times).

I seem to dwell on every little thing that happened and was said and analyse it in my mind over and over again. I hear about things they've done and said through mutual friends and more distant family members (ie like births, etc) and feel sad that we're shut out of it all, even though it was our choice to not be a part of it anymore. I try to talk about it to DH sometimes but I can always see he doesn't want to mull it all over again and again. He seems happy to move on (and has done, I think), so why can't I?

Sorry for rambling.

Hi ChickenBalls is there anyone in RL you can talk to about this? It sounds like you still have a lot to process, and talking to a sympathetic audience might be the best cure. Definitely also use the threads here to unburden yourself if it helps!

If you can afford it, you could also try therapy. Or self-help books like "Toxic in-laws" by Susan Forward.

FWIW, I believe that your husband is right to have accepted that his family's actions are their choice, and nothing to torture himself about as he can't change them. You will probably get to that state of mind too. But you are perfectly entitled to move on at your pace only -- who else's pace could you move at, anyway?

Good luck, and much sympathy to you.

ChickenBalls when a family is dysfunctional there are so many different dynamics going on that everyone is trying to deal with. Pretty much everyone gets hurt. Your in-laws cutting you out is their way of trying to deal with the dysfunction that has affected them - they may not objectively have made the right decision, but it was the right one for them. It may not mean that they don't genuinely care about you or him - dysfunction is exactly that, relationships that don't work like they should. They are just human too. Sometimes there is no sense to be made.

I agree with puppy that your husband is right in accepting their right to make that choice. Not saying it doesn't hurt.

Do you have experience of dysfunction in your family? I'm just asking because my sisters-in-law have been confused by my family when they weren't used to it, their families are so lovely!

Hi again and thanks for both replies.

Maybe you have a point, beaten - my family, albeit small, have never had those kinds of problems. I do struggle to get past the shock of people being so horrible to each other when they're related, so I suppose I am very 'green' in that way.

And itsme - I have talked about it a lot to (my) family and friends - the problem is some of my friends still live near to DH's estranged family, and if we see them and they mention anything about his family or what they've been up to, it takes me right back to what happened and makes me feel awful all over again. The latest example is that I was recently told through a friend that DH's sister has just had a baby, and the Christening was held at the local church with family visiting from all over the country to attend. We didn't even know there was a baby.

Then I start worrying about what his family must have said about us to everybody to explain away us not being at such an important event. And the thought of more and more people being told how horrible we are makes me feel so angry and upset - and shocked at the unfairness of it. But in contrast to this, when I told DH about it all he didnt seem surprised or upset, just resigned to it all.

Bear1984 - I'd take what your sister is saying with a pinch of salt. I'd be very surprised if your mother was getting Legal Aid for this. There is little Legal Aid left these days in all areas of law, but family law has taken the brunt of recent cuts; apparently no child contact cases are going to qualify for LA. I'm not sure that your mother, who doesn't have legal rights over your child, would have even qualified for it in the first place.

supercal thanks for that. Tbh I'm not too worried, as I did google it and from what I read, court would be last resort and we would have to go through mediation first. But as you say I am skeptical as to whether she has gone for advice.

I spoke to DP about it last night. He was outraged. He even apologised as on Sunday, after I had been bombarded with texts, calls and letters from my mum, he suggested that maybe I should let her see DD for an hour, but now after seeing what my sister has said, he said I shouldn't at all and will stand by me 100% with whatever happens.

My sister texted me again today asking me to reply to her as she was saying her DD is going to see my mum and she would like my DD to go the same time. I've never really wanted DD to spend much time with my niece as, although I feel terrible for her, as she has my sister as a mum, I don't want their influence on DD. Like I said before, my sister likes to make out she's the golden child, and my mum always conveniently forgets the shit that has happened in the past including what she did to me as a child and continues to undermine me and treat me like shit as an adult, and all the shit my sister has done to my parents. I could go on and on and on about the shit my sister has done in the past and the way she's treated my parents.

I'm still fairly angry. I had never said to my mum she could never see DD again. I just said I wanted her to give me space and then I would talk to her. But she hasn't given me any space, she didn't listen, so I haven't contacted her except for two letters I wrote her to say that she hasn't listened and give me space so she's making it worse for herself. I think she went about 2 weeks without contacting me.

I just feel really frustrated.

For some reason, DD has been mentioned my mum the past couple of days. Maybe it's because she's realised how close it is til she goes back to the school, but she has only mentioned her about 3 or 4 times over the past few months. So now I feel really terrible because I don't want to upset her :(

Me again, sorry!

But I spoke to a friend today to get another perspective on the situation as me and DP are just angry at the moment.

My friend said she thinks it would be better for me to allow my mum to see DD but to set the rules. That way it looks favourable on me as I would give my mum a second chance to "behave" so if she ended up being her old self, I then have the rights to say she can't see DD again. She told me about her friend who had stopped her parents seeing her kids, but they took her to court and now have the rights to visit and take her kids abroad for holidays. She said sometimes the best way to beat them is play their game but take the high road and beat them with kindess.

I know my friend is right. As much as I hate to admit it. So I am considering speaking to my mum, but telling her how I did consider letting her see DD this week until my sister made things worse for her, but that we need to meet up in a neutral place such as a coffee shop to talk before anything's going to happen.

I've spoken to DP as well and he had said before my sister had texted me, he had considered visiting my mum and telling her that she needs to just leave me be for a month or whatever as she's not doing herself any favours. And he has said he will still do that for me if I want him to, bless him. He has also said he will be with me when I speak to my mum to make sure I don't lose my temper so I don't give her any more ammunition.

I think that honestly, yes I will get very angry seeing and speaking to mum, but I know I'll be able to control as I've had far too many years hiding it away from her.

But it pains me to 1) chance the fact that she may still try to poison DD's mind, as let's face it, I know she will do it, whether it's this time next week or a few month's down the road, and 2) that it will look like it's because of my sister's text with the threat of courts that I will have had a "change of heart", and 3) that my bloody family keep plaguing me when all my life I've just wanted to escape from them, and for good reason to!

I would love honest opinions here, as I don't really know what is best to do now. And sorry, I feel like I'm hyjacking this thread!

ChickenBalls - even though none of us had really spoken about our family's dysfunction, once it blew open, everyone knew EXACTLY what the story was. Don't worry about what people say.

I'll bet my next month's wages that they either:

a) know but aren't going to get their hands dirty (too much hassle to deal with the ones who stir) or
b) they agree, in which case you wouldn't want to have contact, or
c) they don't yet see it, but will in their own time.

Either way, try not to worry too much.

Chickenballs your dilemma sounds a lot like where I was emotionally a few months ago, regarding my abusive ex-H's family and the friends we shared. It upset me hugely that they didn't know about his abusiveness, or if they did, some of the people close to him chose to dismiss it, by any of the following actions:

• still associating with ex in a friendly manner,
• assuming that if we were splitting, we must be both equally to blame,
• talking smack about me (only ex-SIL did this, but boy did it hurt).

Any people who did this have been cut out of my life. I was upset by their actions, but therapy and time helped me realise that their actions are their choice, the result of their own personal beliefs and baggage or whatever. Any thoughts they may have about me do not define what I actually am.

Does that make sense to you?

It's your DH's ex-family's choice to exclude the two of you from family news and events. They are doing it for their own reasons. The fact that they exclude you does not make you unworthy people.

Likewise, the friends who live close to them will make up their own minds, for their reasons. Their choice. And your choice will be whether to continue to associate with any friends who side with the ex-family, and that choice will be based on your own reasons, your own needs and beliefs.