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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to Statley Homes" Dysfunctional Families Thread

818 replies

Snowdropfairy · 31/03/2011 14:04

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
November 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow · 25/08/2011 10:07

Bear, what do you want?

From this paragraph:

But it pains me to 1) chance the fact that she may still try to poison DD's mind, as let's face it, I know she will do it, whether it's this time next week or a few month's down the road, and 2) that it will look like it's because of my sister's text with the threat of courts that I will have had a "change of heart", and 3) that my bloody family keep plaguing me when all my life I've just wanted to escape from them, and for good reason to!

...it sounds to me like your gut says "no". If I have learned anything from my experience with abusers, it is to trust your gut. It's telling you something for your own defense. Your emotions, your soul, your needs are worth defending.

That way it looks favourable on me as I would give my mum a second chance to "behave" so if she ended up being her old self, I then have the rights to say she can't see DD again.

Does it matter what your actions look like? Who is there judging you? Does their opinion matter? If anyone thinks ill of you, does it make you a bad person -- or is it just that person's opinion, that they are welcome to? Is appearance more important than following your instinct to keep your DD away from your mother?

So I am considering speaking to my mum, but telling her how I did consider letting her see DD this week until my sister made things worse for her, but that we need to meet up in a neutral place such as a coffee shop to talk before anything's going to happen.

That sounds a little dramatic to me.

By all means allow another meeting to give your mother another chance if that's what you want to. But from your post, it sounds like what you're giving her is another chance to trip up, to convince other people and maybe also yourself that you are right to keep her away from DD.

Do you really need more proof? (maybe you do, in which case go for it if that's what you need.)

Bear1984 · 25/08/2011 14:08

ItsMeAndMyPuppyNow thanks for your post.

Ultimately, I don't want my mum in our lives. That's what it all boils down to. I've never wanted her in it really, as even without what has happened now with DD, I have so much anger and upset and hurt from when I was a child. I had counselling for it, and with everything that's going on now, I'm hoping to get more.

My gut instinct is saying no, and usually I follow it. But after talking to my friend, it made me wonder, particularly after hearing what has happened to her friend with being taken to court and her parents getting visitation rights. In terms of who would be judging me, it's more if it did go to court. I honestly don't care what people like my family or friends of the family that I know my family will have painted an awful picture of me to actually think of me. I know I'm right and they're wrong, and that they won't ever consider the fact that they are wrong. Whether it be my mum denying the fact that she told DD those things or that she abused when I was little, or my sister acting like she's the golden child despite all the stuff she's done in the past and no doubt continues to do, or my brothers who stopped talking to me because of the nervous breakdown I had a few years ago. If I could, I'd leave this place and start afresh somewhere new with my own family who are all I need.

So yeah it was only if it did go to court or whatever, that my friend said I should consider allowing my mum to see DD. But as I said, I don't want to really expose DD to the possibility of being poisoned again. I don't need proof, but I guess now, I'm wondering what's best as if it did go to court (although my gut instinct says that it never will) there is a chance that I will be forced to allow DD to see her. As I know my mum and my sister will deny everything. And I can't prove anything other than putting my word against theirs. I have DP who will stand by me. But I guess it's the thought that I could possibly lose control that scares me and has made me consider that option iyswim. Because I know if the courts asked DD if she wants to see my mum, she'll say yes, because she does love spending time with her.

supercal · 25/08/2011 20:47

Hello

I've been thinking about family dynamics and the 'enabling' parent ever since teacup posted on here about her father beating his son to follow his wife's wishes. I was in hospital with a minor op but have read with interest the discussion about enabling, and have been meaning to post when I had the energy.

What struck me teacup how you seemed to accept as read (at first!) that your father didn't have a choice but to beat his son against his own wishes. Your mother may have kicked up a fuss, but of course your father had a choice! All adults have choices. But in an abusive family, the less obviously dominant parent can make out that they don't have a choice but to do what the other wants, or that they are put upon, because it suits them to be seen like that. It absolves them from responsibility. It allows them to deflect the question that otherwise people may ask of them - why were you not parenting your child properly? It is very easy to hide behind the other parent, the alleged bully parent. But the fact of the matter is that both parents are adults, and they both have power, and they both have control over the atmosphere and ethos of the home in which they raise their children.

I was especially struck by your post, teacup, because, if you don't mind me saying so, I realised how sad it is that as children in dysfunctional homes, we look for one 'good' parent to cling on to. We want to have a strong relationship with one of our parents, so we often see them through rose-tinted glasses, purely because they are - on the surface - the lesser of two evils. It is easy to blame everything on one baddy, to have a scapegoat. It is a less scary notion for one thing. And children need a parent to believe in - it's what every child deserves.

But often this means that we don't see the 'better' parent for what they really are, which is often abusive or enabling or deeply flawed. Because it does take two to tango, and for every abusive parent, there is often someone there behind them, ignoring the abuse or condoning it or adding to it.

I used to hate my mother when I was younger. She was physically, verbally and emotionally abusive towards me. I couldn't stand her. I am much more like my father. Intellectually we are much more on a level, and we have a lot more to talk about. My father really promoted the idea of me and my mother fighting over him.

But the fact is that now, as a grown adult with my own children, it is my father I don't see. Because I realised how emotionally abusive and manipulative he was, and yes, he was also physically abusive, hitting me twice, but that was minor compared to my mother so I didn't count it.

It is a very complicated relationship they have - my father is outwardly the bully. But I knew that my mother wasn't meek and mild as she made out. I thought she was fake and hated her. But know I can see she probably was manipulated by my father. And that she enabled him and he enabled her. What matters to me though is that she has heard me out when I confronted her and I was able to set some ground rules with her, whereas there is no reasoning with my father, who would never hear me out. He prefers to believe that I am psychotic instead.

This whole complicated dynamic of co-parents enabling each other, and there never being a 'good' and a 'bad', was something I really learnt about when I was in group therapy. There were a few people there who had supposedly 'innocent' parents who condoned appalling behaviour from their spouses towards their children, and who had not protected or removed their child from homes that were psychologically or physically incredibly damaging.

The sad truth is, I believe, that we can only really move on when we realise that there was no 'innocent' parent in an abusive household, and that while they may want us to believe that it was all fault of 'the other' and they themselves were an innocent victim, the fact is it is always much more complicated, twisted, and darker than that.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 26/08/2011 01:53

But in an abusive family, the less obviously dominant parent can make out that they don't have a choice but to do what the other wants, or that they are put upon, because it suits them to be seen like that. It absolves them from responsibility. It allows them to deflect the question that otherwise people may ask of them - why were you not parenting your child properly?

This is scarily true. I've been slipping back into guilt for Dad's life in the past day or two so a much needed reminder. Will think about this supercal before I respond properly.

garlicnutter · 26/08/2011 17:02

Supercal, that was an absolutely brilliant post.

For me, and I think for many others, taking my mum down from her "had no choice" pedestal was more directly painful for me than vilifying the angry, violent father. A very small comment by an eating disorders counsellor started me thinking - despite having already done nearly 4 years of therapy by then! I must have clung so hard to Mum's "saintliness", I failed to follow any therapists' leads towards examining her behaviour.

In case anybody wants to know about the small comment: I explained how I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of food values, as my mother's obsessed with nutrition. The woman said "So she was quite controlling, then?" That shook me so completely, I couldn't continue the conversation Blush Grin

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 01:02

Has anyone else experienced the enabler to be a controlling parent? Mine certainly is.

garlicnutter · 27/08/2011 01:40

Not in the same way as you, teacup, but yes. My mother's a manipulator whose self-image is at odds with her actions. Her beliefs are rigid. She lacks empathy. She's unforgiving - she's a "made your bed, must lie in it" person and she bears grudges. Her rages are frenzied. All this in direct contradiction of how she sells herself: the sweet, well-meaning, suffering victim, basket of home-grown vegetables in hand. She's weird.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 01:56

Is this the woman you had on the 'had no choice' pedestal? Did you recognise all of this before you took her off the pedestal or only saw it afterwards?

Do you think enablers are rigid in an attempt to give some order to their world? My dad clings to his religious beliefs even above his children, I actually think it's the only thing that's kept him alive so he needs to.

Although to be fair, it might be getting worse because he's aging.

garlicnutter · 27/08/2011 02:22

Afterwards. In a lot of ways it was more insidious because I bought the "for my own good" stuff from her, whereas Dad came right out and said he hit me for fun. Now I think the pair of them were mutually dependent. She wound him up, he exploded, she suffered, she wound him up. They were both locked in their own repeating drama. Unfortunately, we were locked in it too.

garlicnutter · 27/08/2011 02:33

So, no, I don't see her controlling as an attempt to manage the chaos of their marriage - I think she needed the chaos. I think it's part of her psychological makeup. She doesn't get subtlety; she's all or nothing.

My dad clings to his religious beliefs even above his children - try not to be too forgiving of this, teacup. A good father wouldn't love anything more than his children.

My mum says she thinks of plants as her children. She certainly takes more care over their healthy development.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 03:17

garlicnutter do you have siblings? If so, how do they fit into all of this?

My dad is a bit "for your own good" too, tied to religion. I agree it is far more insidious. However I'm feeling angry for you that anyone would hit a child for fun Angry

I'm still making excuses for Dad, I know. This is my next step to work through with my counsellor when I get back to the UK. I suspect I feel overprotective of him because I've seen him be picked on by Mum all my life, but I also suspect that he's put too much responsibility onto me for his emotional wellbeing (I am only too aware that when I call/visit him, he's almost bursting with happiness and is like a little puppy; when I am not religious enough, I make him sad or disappointed. When Mum is hurtful, he's a victim. I don't see an independent emotional life in my father. Actually, I've only just realised this: Dad has only ever portrayed himself as a victim in our family, and made everyone else responsible for his emotions).

HairyWoman · 27/08/2011 11:38

Don't have much time/energy to post in general but just had to say teacup that you could be describing my mother who, coincidentally is quite religious (though has never forced her religion on me - she's catholic by the way).

garlicnutter · 27/08/2011 13:43

Your post at 03:17 was significant, I think, teacup. I am sorry for you, having to work through such unpleasant thoughts. But it can have very positive effects on your long-term sanity, and all of your relationships.

Yes, I have several siblings. Only one of them has seen through Mum. Another sister is constantly irritated by her, but fails to notice how closely she mirrors her in her own personal life. We are all aware that our upbringing damaged our self-worth and deal with that in different ways. I'm the only one who has acknowledged mental health problems and sought therapy. All my nieces and nephews - they're young adults now - have persistent emotional & behavioural difficulties.

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 14:05

garlicnutter - sorry to hear that your extended family are also suffering the consequences of the damage. You sound wise and kind, I'm guessing you have been through so much.

Re lightbulb moment at 3.17 - my final liberation is beginning! I've done so much work on myself over the last 18 months, and the last 3 weeks have indeed felt like one long, intense, incredible counselling session. I've thought of nothing else and been utterly confused much of the time, not to mention plain exhausted. I've also cried my heart out 10 of the past 21 days (yes, I actually counted the number of days (not number of times, that's too many) that I've cried).

This thread has moved me forward so much during that time - massive thanks to everyone who's contributed btw, been an incredible resource. I love how people are considerate enough to respond and also call it straight up as they see it.

(garlicnutter are you garlicbutter, btw?)

garlicnutter · 27/08/2011 14:11

Yep, nutty butter :)

Bear1984 · 27/08/2011 14:14

I hope you don't mind me adding, but my mum was also one for the "for your own good" although most of the time it was to teach my younger siblings whether I deserved the punishment or not.

I also thought more highly of my dad, but that's because I rarely saw him. He left when I was 7, and I rarely saw him except the odd few times during the year when he would take us out to amusement parks or the cinema. Only now that I'm an adult, I can see he did that out of guilt, to make the time we spent with him a good one, whether he was buying us whatever he wanted or taking us wherever we wanted to go. Out of both my parents, I took after my dad more, I was particularly close to him when he was still with us when I was younger, so I often wonder if that was part of the reason as to why my mum treated me that way.

The same that I knew the only reason my parents married was because my mum was pregnant with me and my dad comes from a very religious family so it had to be the done thing. When I was about 13, I found a diary my mum kept when I was born, and she described how she couldn't bond with me and was jealous of how my dad showed me more attention than her, as she had to have a C section and had to bed rest a long time. She often refers to my birth, as I was breeched, and says I was difficult and awkward before I was even born, let alone how I am now.

Over the years I have given myself answers and reasons as to why my mum singled me out of my siblings and treated me the way she did. They're probably not true, but I needed these reasons to keep myself sane, and not fall into the trap of believing that maybe I'm just a terrible person, and awful things must happen to me, though sometimes I do still wonder as to whether I am?

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 14:16

Ah. You do realise it'll take me about a fortnight a few days to pick up on that?!! I was wondering where garlicbutter had gone Blush Grin

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 14:29

Bear how sad that your Mum couldn't bond with you and show you the empathic mothering that an infant needs.

You do realise that (although I don't know you) it is objectively far far far far more likely that you feel like you might be a terrible person because of the atmosphere you were brought up in and the way you were treated, no? It's not your fault that your mother was pregnant with you, it's not your fault that she was jealous of the attention your dad gave you, and it's not your fault that your mum singled you out and treated you the way she did.

I doubt you're perfect, but I doubt you're any worse than anyone else Wink.

(I also just found out that my parents married only because they'd slept together; religion dictates again)

Bear1984 · 27/08/2011 14:53

It is very much because of that teacup. Though sometimes when everything else seems to be going terribly wrong, I wonder if I'm being punished but that's usually because when things go wrong, literally everything does. However since meeting DP he has helped me tremendously to believe I am worth something, and that I deserve happiness. I'm very lucky in that respect.

Religion is a strange one. My dad waited until his mum had passed away before he could divorce my mum as it would have been frowned upon. I don't believe my dad is religious much anymore, I think it was mainly down to what his family would have deemed the right thing to do. For example, my DD's father who I split up with when she was 8mo, I was never married to, so I caused some dislike from my dad's side of the family, although I wasn't too affected by this as they live in a different country and I don't really know them so well so no loss there!

beatenbyayellowteacup · 27/08/2011 15:00

Why on earth would you need punishing? You've had enough difficult times in your life already. If anything you are probably in punishment credit, if there is such a concept.

Great that your DP helps you realise your worth, and yes, you deserve happiness Smile

Bear1984 · 27/08/2011 15:03

Got to love the way the mind works lol.

ThereGoesTheFear · 30/08/2011 18:13

Hello, long-term Stately Homes lurker here.

I'm sorry to just jump in with a desperate request for advice:

I've been trying to keep my dad at arm's length for the last 6 months, and it's come to a head today.

Background: he physically abused DM, sexually abused me (nothing terrible ref. me, but still.) They separated when I was 13, and he was in sporadic contact with us, sometimes going years between contacts.

I'm the only family member who is still in touch with him (several siblings). Despite giving him everyone else's contact details, he always denies he knows how to get in touch with anyone else, so he uses me as a go-between.

I've recently escaped an abusive marriage, and I recognise the similarities between him and my husband , and it makes me sick. I don't have the strength to deal with that at the moment, so I had simply said to my dad that my marriage had broken down and I didn't feel very sociable, but that I would be in touch when I could. I haven't given him my contact details (I moved when I left H) but obviously he has my email address, which hasn't changed.

After a few emails from Dad, getting snottier and snottier, I got one today saying that he may have cancer, he's going in for an exploratory op tomorrow, and will I please give him my contact details so that his partner can contact me in the event of a bad outcome.

Help! I feel sorry for him, I feel like the last contact he has with any family, and I also feel shit-scared about having him in my life right now.

floofers · 30/08/2011 22:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

garlicnutter · 31/08/2011 02:14

I agree, floofers. The 'abuse phone' is a good idea, TGFT, it will help you not to feel guilty while still being able to switch the thing off (forever)! Escalating annoyance followed by cancer scare sounds very like a control script to me.

I don't think you should worry about him until your abuse phone gets a call from a member of staff at a hospice, but you probably will. That damn FOG.. Keep getting strong and enjoying your freedoms as you find them :) x

ThereGoesTheFear · 31/08/2011 13:09

Thanks Garlic and floofers. I like the idea of an "abuse hotline" that I only switch on when I fancy a bit of abuse... I've been meaning to get one for H to call me on, too, so it makes sense.

Ref the religious stuff (and even although I'm a bit rubbish at it I consider myself to be quite religious): I think so many religions have been infiltrated by centuries of misogynist ideas, that they lend themselves quite handily to putting down women and children. And from the side of the victim: if you've been brought up religious, your feelings of obligation and guilt can be quite well-developed, so you're a sitting duck for a certain type of manipulation (true in my case, anyway).

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