"But we took you to Statley Homes" Dysfunctional Families Thread

[Snowdropfairy]

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
November 2010

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

All that double-think must be so tiring, mustn't it? My mum knows Dad was an insane, violent weirdo. But she lurrved him. He was so witty, so clever, so popular! Most people couldn't stand him, and his wit was good but malicious. I think of her when I read those marital abuse threads, and the poster always says "No-one else sees what he's like, he's so clever and popular." :(

To this day, she's convinced their love was so great, it was worth putting us through the terrified training programme that passed for our childhoods. The stupid, vain woman!

I understand how this happens in an abusive marriage, I really do - it's why I'm still friendly with my relative, whose husband has abused her DC all their lives. God help me, if my pregnancies had stuck I might have ended up doing the same with X#1. But understanding doesn't make it all right. She was my mother; most of my problems have stemmed from my problematic childhood; if she'd been mother enough to save her children from the abuse, our lives may well have been more straightforward. For certain, they would have been happier.

Didn't realise I still needed to vent about this

I wish people had to take a psych test before they were allowed to have kids ...

Vent away! I've started myself off too!
I really looked into all of this when DS was a year old. I was trying to understand why my now exP was the way he was and ended up looking into NPD which actually described my dad to a tee... and also trying to understand how I could have gotten into that awful situation when all the red flags were there in the begining.

I practically begged my mum to talk with me about my dad and said that it would help me so much (she knew what I was going through with P, but she wouldn't.. too busy, not the right time, then couldn't remember agreeing with me that she thought he was NPD too and then she couldn't see the point in talking anyway as 'what's done is done'. Usual end to any discussion.

Thing is my dad can do just one ok thing, that any normal person would do naturally and my mum jumps all over it ... isn't he so good type of thing.... but can't say anything good about her daughter whatever I did or achieved. It sounds so sad of me doesn't it, but I've even asked her directly if she thought (arghh I dunno) about me and she just cant do it..
Sorry for the ramble!

This:

But understanding doesn't make it all right. She was my mother; most of my problems have stemmed from my problematic childhood; if she'd been mother enough to save her children from the abuse, our lives may well have been more straightforward. For certain, they would have been happier.

is exactly what I was thinking to myself this morning. It's compounded by the fact that my mother still complains of the real pain it caused her to have her talents invalidated by her father... and then she went on to do the same thing to me and my sister. FGS, she knew firsthand what kind of lifelong pain it has caused her, and she went on to do the same thing to her own defenseless children! I have been narc supply since birth: the butt of put-downs from my insecure mother. And what has it achieved? My mother still feels shit about herself, and now so do I! Well done, Mom. That really was worth it, wasn't it?

babyhammock I have a similar experience to your mum's "everyone makes mistakes". Except that I haven't had it out yet with my mother; she has just put in place preventive measure to me ever calling her out on shit parenting. Ever since I can remember, I have heard her say: "I was so worried about messing you girls up, so I bought a book by Dr Spock [famous 60s pediatrician], and in his introduction said that every parent makes mistakes. So I though 'Well that's all right then' and threw out the book without reading the rest."

So I know ahead of time that if/when I confront her, she will say: "But every parent makes mistakes; look, Dr Spock even said so!". She thinks she is pre-absolved; she will never, ever accept that she is still responsible for her mistakes, inevitable though they are for any fallible human being.

Gah. I hate the Teflon quality of the Narcissist faced with responsibility.

Agh can I join this thread?

Had massive rows with NPD mother this week over her verbal abuse of Dad -she's now chirpy as anything with me, as though she hadn't told me just days ago that she doesn't like me and that the devil is working through me. And damned me to hell, and raised her fist at me.

She seems to assume I have/will have forgiven her even though the best I got was a grudging "yes, I'm sorry too" after I insisted she needed to apologise (two days later). And then told me I provoked her and kept throwing it all back in my face, and said she still hadn't gotten over how much I'd hurt her, but she didn't want me to feel unwelcome in their house.

I can't pretend it's ok.

Hello, teacup!

It is horrible to face up to what your mother is. It goes against everything we're 'supposed' to see in our parents, and what we were hard-wired as children to believe. In case you needed affirmation, "The Devil's Child" is a seriously bad, abusive and dangerous thing to say. It shows a frightening disconnect from the real world and its facts.

Would it be right to assume your dad didn't do much to protect you in childhood?

Sorry, I don't know why I misread your devil quote. Same problem, though :(

No Dad didn't do much to protect me. He'd been silenced by then I think (am youngest). It's complicated - one of my older brothers was a handful, so Mum used to get Dad to beat him with a belt when he got home from work, even though whatever my brother had done had nothing to do with Dad. I think he felt that was the right thing to do, although apparently he was in tears doing it as Mum would encourage him to belt the boy (he was age 10 - 13 at the time). Dad came from an abusive family - his Dad used to be violent and cold.

Brother then ran away for best part of ten years, which tore Dad apart and I think it took him years to deal with it. It also upset Mum too - naturally.

In my teens I didn't like Dad (too strict) and used to bitch about him with Mum - which now I regret, because although he is and was too strict, he is very loving, generous and kind and has been super patient with Mum which I think shows his moral character. I guess I can't handle the fact that he should have stood up to her, I need to think he didn't get that wrong.

I only really saw Mum at her worst last weekend, when my world turned upside down and I realised that everything I had suspected but dared not believe was true. And this is reshaping everything that I thought to be true, and explaining a lot about my low self esteem and useless twat radar, amongst other things. And I thought Mum loved me but she doesn't act like it, unless I don't challenge her, and give her attention. Which hurts.

Until about 2 years ago my fantasy of a relationship was basically having an argument (in my parents' mother tongue). I didn't even realise that this was wrong - so I'm still relearning what love actually is. I thought Mum loved me and Dad didn't - I now realise that it is the other way around, so I'm headfucked at the moment.

And Dad, at 80 and very religious, is now agreeing he wants to leave her, which is an epic validation of the feelings that I have about her and my past.

btw hello garlicbutter

And sorry for the offload. Just feeling a bit sorry for myself atm

God, don't apologise, you have plenty to offload! It's significant that your dad has finally admitted his marriage is bad enough to leave (all the more so, given his religious adherence.) It validates your perception of your mother as - what, a sadist, perhaps? - a vicious individual, anyway - and perhaps this has freed you to think your own thoughts, instead of following the 'company line'.

Very hard for you, yes. I imagine you need to talk a lot.

Mum is just a classic narc with no empathy or love. I've enabled her until now, which is why I've not really had it directed overtly at me, although I think I subconsciously knew the whole time that if I didn't toe the party line with her I wouldn't be accepted.

I live in another country to my parents (no guessing why) and so I've not really had to deal with this so directly as at the moment, when I'm staying with them.

What a headfuck! So much to unpick, so much readjusting of my perception of my life and my family, and me. I almost feel like I'm rescripting my future with a new me, but that I don't know who that 'me' is yet. So kind of exciting, but also bloody terrifying and there is a bit of mourning to do too.

You say your world was turned upside down last weekend teacup, but you already sound so incredibly grounded and like you've figured it all out (the truth of the situation, how it shaped you, and what you need to pursue now).

That's amazing progress in a short time! Yes, it's a headfuck and it does involve a lot of grieving and a lot of uncertainty. You say you don't know who you are, and I understand that, but you're already showing that who you are includes immense perceptiveness and strength.

I could have written almost everything in your posts today, btw. So thanks for saving me the trouble !

I feel far from grounded, but thanks Puppy . Hope your day is going well, forging your own future the way you'd like it to be, not the way someone else scripted it to be.

Just had a massive teary session on my father about not feeling loved. He cried and said he really loves me. But I don't feel it. Arrgghh.

Now am sitting in my parents house. Mum of course is still cross with how poorly she was treated (!), but will try and be chirpy, as though she hasn't done anything wrong and look how big she is for forgiving me for being so utterly rude to her (ie telling her not to talk to Dad so rudely. Actually I did call her a bully. Which is true but probably not the best choice of words ).

Actually - when Dad cried and said he loves me, he then apologised for all his shortcomings, which just puts more burden onto me. He genuinely means it well, but by God it feels like more effort for me. I then feel like I need to prop him up too.

I have another week here.

Why does your father's apology seem like a burden to you, teacup? Is he asking you to prop him up? And whether he is or isn't, do you think you really need to prop him up now?

I'm curious, because I can foretell any confrontation I have with my parents playing out exactly the same way: Mom hugely offended but then brushing it under the carpet in the pretense that that's acting like the bigger person, and Dad genuinely surprised and remorseful. But when I cast my mind to that, any apology from my father would seem liberating to me... do you feel burdened because your father is now reconsidering his relationship to your mother, and you feel you need to help him through that process, since you feel you ignited it?

for the first time the stunning revelation that "she's talking unjustifiable shite", followed by "OMG she just makes it up", "it's all starting to become clear", "she's been just making it up for years" and "so hang on a minute then, what does that mean? I'm NOT a fundamentally bad person?". Dressed of course with quite a bit of "fuuuuck, my whole understanding of myself is a lie"

Saffron Cake that made the most perfect sense to me - you have summed up my last week to perfection!

Puppy no he's not asking to be propped up. But he is incredibly needy - almost every interaction involves one or numerous (often repeated) stories about people who have loved and respected him in his time (even dating back from work 30 years ago). And when I cry about not feeling loved or accepted he weeps and says how sorry he is, for all of his shortcomings.

But part of the problem is that he still is judgmental and asks me questions which are loaded, where there is only one correct moral answer, or doubts me. For example, I said tonight that the Bible will be interpreted differently according to people's experience, to which he quickly asked, "So you think experience is more valid than the Bible?" - and the only correct answer is no. He admitted that if I gave any other answer he'd be disappointed. So this is actually the real reason why I don't feel accepted by him, so then he cries and apologises for his shortcomings (but isn't actually liberal minded enough to even want to do anything different). He then wants to discuss why I found my upbringing stifling, which is a conversation I really do not want to have with him, because he will just feel guilty and sad, or else disappointed in my thoughts.

But also I feel partly responsible for his wellbeing. I always have if I'm honest, even from a young age eg talking to him from the back seat on long car journeys to make sure he stayed awake. So I do feel as though I've triggered a stressful situation and then will leave a mess behind me. I told him the worst outcome would be that I leave and it slips back to the way it was, and he puts up with it.

He says he's worried about me which I hate, although I'm worried about him. But I hate it when people try and get close to me. When and should the parenting swap over?!

Re Mum: I'm being civil but not particularly warm. I'm taking garlicbutters advice and giving her attention about herself, but I have no expectations of kindness from her.

Sorry that was a ramble. Blah.

I have a dream: that people on the recovery threads for abuse will stop apologising for their posts...

Oops sorry

Hi, teacup. I'm going to have to keep this short for my own mental health. Your recent posts have been very perceptive. You seem to be breaking through 'the mirror' and seeing the unvarnished truth about your parents' personalities; the pattern of their relationhips to each other and to you. It can be immensely shocking: as you said, I almost feel like I'm rescripting my future with a new me, but that I don't know who that 'me' is yet.

I imagine that your father's inventories of past affections are his way of propping up his self-identity. It reminds of all the times, when I was with abusive partners, I wailed to friends "But I'm reasonably attractive, I've got a great job, most people think I'm a good wife ..." (unspoken question: So why does my husband act tlike I'm dirt on his shoe?) I feel sorry for him, but it looks fairly clear that he is a weak, dependent, insecure person. Maybe he wasn't always so. Nonetheless, it was wrong of him to look to you - his child - to perform caretaking duties for him. He is wrong, now, to undermine your thoughts and opinions. He probably doesn't know any other way.

Please try to shrug off your feelings of duty towards him. You are not responsible for your parents' pride, their welfare or their relationships. They were responsible for yours, as parents of a child, and they didn't make a particularly selfless effort. I very much hope you're able to concentrate on your own self; your identity and to start thinking about the future you want. Talking to unrelated people in real life can be very helpful, if you can find the right ones :)

garlicbutter I am going to reread and absorb that last paragraph. I'm a bit stuck on that one.

Thanks so much for your comments - you've been so helpful to me here and on the thread about that weird little man that I thought was nice (Big Red Flag . I hope you're ok.

It's okay, feel free to ignore anything I write that you don't want

Nooo I meant the last paragraph in particular

Today is a day to visualise the future that I'd like to have. Let's go crazy!

Teacup...
I don't really want to give you any more doubt, but I don't think your dad is more interested in helping you than he is himself.
That whole convo re the bible, he is trying to make you question yourself and the way you feel and I don't think those are the actions of someone who is genuinely sorry at all, more the actions of someone trying to 'look' like they're sorry but subtly putting things back on you... arghh hope I'm making sense.

Same as beating your brother but with tears in his eyes.. didn't stop him doing it :( x

Babyhammock thanks for your reply. You've hit the very thing that is bothering me too. Why didn't he just not hit my brother? Apparently he did refuse, eventually, but I just can't buy it. I know that refusing to do what narc mother said to do is hell in itself, but ffs you don't take the soft option if it means abusing your child.

This morning I explained I would be staying at friends etc until Friday, when I would return to Mum and Dads (am on hols abroad so this makes sense). His response? "Good." I thought, "Good for who? Certainly not me. You." Which explains how I've felt all my life - think, be, act a certain way to please others, and how I feel about it makes no difference. I drove off and cried with anger. I feel like I have been the sacrifice to keep everyone happy in their little worlds.

But then I realise that my father is an incredibly damaged man. The fact that he has been so patient with Mum is admirable. He needs the help more than I do. And so I feel guilty for thinking these thoughts about him.

But my hunch is that he is, underneath it all, behaving a bit manipulatively. I don't think he means to. He is harder to deal with because he tells me how much he loves me (in tears, I hate these tears), but yet I have to fit his picture of what a good girl is in order to not sadden or disappoint him; Mum at least tells me upfront that she doesn't like me .