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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Help, my narsissitic Mother is hinting at coming to live with me..............

121 replies

DrNortherner · 09/03/2011 19:51

Wonderful Dad died in April 2009. Mother been a pain in the arse since, with out going into huge detail.

Anyway, she is saying she is unsettled living alone in the house her and my Dad shared. She wants to move. The area is detoriating and she is scared.

Her house is ex council, and not worth enough for her to buy another property, so she is telling me she is considering housing association and using her money to pay the rent. She currently lives mortgage free. I know she is calling my bluff, and testing me by saying this hoping I will say come and live with me in the hope I don't want her to spend my inheritance. So, I am going along with her suggestions and offering to help her, even offering to arrange house valuation.

She mentioned tonight that a friend has been asking why she isn't coming to live with me Hmm

Dh says to nip this in the bud now and tell her hell will freeze over before she moves in here.

Either way, she is upset and was crying on the phone again

OP posts:
BitOfFun · 10/03/2011 12:56

Let it all out Grin

I loved catinthehat2's flow-chart.

Miggsie · 10/03/2011 13:00

All narcs need enablers, my grand dad was a classic enabler to my granny, in 80 years no one ever told my gran she was unreasonable, grand dad made sure everyone tiptoed round her and made sure she was happy. Sod the rest of the family, gran had to be happy. My mother hated the fact everyone kowtowed to her as she was just a big fat bully basically. I hated my grand mother and avoided her. Once my grand dad was dead granny needed another enabler so she moved in with her daughter (my aunt) whom she treated like shit, she died screaming abuse at everyone (obviously there had to be a big death bed scene, as with all things she did). Lovely.

Anyway, my dad is now 85 and was trained from birth to enable his mother and always give in to her, and after talking a lot about NPD and granny last year, at the age of 84, he managed to admit, his mother was an utter bitch who had ruined his life and my aunt's, plus 2 of her grandchildren's.

So it toook my dad 84 years to repudiate his mother, she's been dead 20 years though.

So well done for recognising your mum for what she is and not waiting till 84!!!!!

messybessie · 10/03/2011 13:10

I wouldn't give her a reason, as it gives her something to argue against. Just present her with 2 options. Stay or sell and rent flat.

Just tell her, 'You can't come to live with me so you will have to decided what you would prefer'

Then back out of the door Wink

Lemonylemon · 10/03/2011 13:30

DrNortherner I know your back story from other boards/threads and no, I really, really don't think you're being selfish at all. Stay strong......

Underachieving · 10/03/2011 22:36

Appologies if I'm way off the mark because I only read the first 2 pages but...

She can't cut her own toenails or understand a fairly basic bit of beurocracy. She can't live alone then can she. That still doesn't mean you have to take her in. A situation which drains you is not going to have a positive outcome for either of you. So definately don't let her move in. I've got a bit of experience with narcissism and I'd say that the only thing you can do is not play the game and not get sucked in. That means when she says "[your ex] has moved so that his Mum can live with him" you say "yes mother, you said". When she says "I am scared to live here" you say "have you considered shelter accomodation". When she says "can you cut my toe nails" you say "I think you need a carer, I am a [teacher] not a carer but I could contact Social Services for you if you find it daunting to make the call yourself". You have to keep batting it back. Dealing with a narcissist is a bit like being in the police force I think. When in uniform a police officer doesn't allow herself to be hurt by the insults levelled at her because she knows they are aimed at the uniform, not her personally. You have to kind of take the same approach with narcissists, they are saying it for the effect, don't let there be one. It's hard to do, but if you must converse with a narcissist it pays to try to let thier words float by you and not connect to them.

animadura · 10/03/2011 22:40

I agree - it's not 'no, we'd drive each other mad' it's just 'no'.

I have to stick to that policy for every micro-decision with my mother.

Example - We don't go out and leave dd in her care. I get a babysitter. Mum hates this and always protests - you don't need to do that, we can manage, it's too expensive, I don't want a babysitter in the house etc etc.

I just say - this is what I have decided. Then there's a big deal about how long babysitter will stay. I do not negotiate and I do not explain. I say 'she is booked until 11.30'. No discussion.

It's the only way.

expatinscotland · 10/03/2011 23:41

I'm glad others are here who are offering good support and advice, DrN. And I especially like the term 'narc'.

LOL.

I think I was a born narc repellant because I never suffer it anymore than I'd dish it out to someone else, but I'm in camp with the people who say telling her just 'No' and Underachieving and messiebessie's suggestions.

I'd have told her to go to fuck long ago but then, that's just me :o.

TeachMySelfBalance · 11/03/2011 13:49

I feel for you DrN.

Do you have a plan in case she shows up ("surprise!") at your house with a moving van?

Sometimes it is hard to calibrate the extent of the sense of entitlement in conjunction with their presumed right to erase any personal/social boundary.

That she expected you to cut her toe nails-that is quite a threshold. Or, is she so overweight that she can not reach them-so she might consider this to be ok to ask?

There are a lot of great suggestions here. Thanks Attila for the nice summary. CatintheHat's flow chart is essential for sanity. The strategies for disengagement, protected neutrality are all good.

Sorry I didn't note your name, but the policeman's uniform analogy is new to me and sounds exactly right. The dynamic is all about the narc and not the target. I have felt that I could drop by a lifesize cardboard cutout of myself and no notice would be made of the difference.

My own mother is deceased, but my lovely Middle Sister picked up the flag and carried on without missing a beat.

DrNortherner · 11/03/2011 14:07

Oh she would never turn up with a moving van, she could not possible organise that without moaning to me about the drama and the stresses it would create.

She is overweight (dress size 20/22) but she can do her own toe nails. She just never had to do them when Dad was alive. But she is capable of doing them.

Christmas is another issue. As an only child I feel it is my duty to have her stay with us at Christmastime, 2011 will be our third without Dad. When he was alive we had them one year, and not the next. Dh is making noises that he hopes she will not be here every Christmas and I feel panicky about that. She has 5 sisters, so she will never be alone, but she will never say 'Dr N, I am going to xxxxx's house for Christmas this year' I will actually have to tell her we want a Christmas alone, without her, then she will be sad and cry and I will be the mean old daughter.

OP posts:
TeachMySelfBalance · 11/03/2011 14:53

That's a relief about the moving.

For Christmas, could you travel; then it'd be easier to say to her that she'd have to make other plans for Christmas (avoid saying 'this year' Wink )? And that she'll never be alone is a happy condition.

It is hard. I think it does come down to how you react-I mean-your choice how to respond-not just to her, but within yourself...and...that translates into the field of how much guilt do you want to deal with-then take that much. You don't owe her anything and you don't need to play the part assigned (The 'How Could You Do That" part) and do the script of guilt and shame and failed duty, etc.

There is alot of family brainwashing and society brainwashing to overcome, but there is a path to emotional freedom.

So sorry I am not being articulate about it-maybe Attila can come back and help explain.

DrNortherner · 11/03/2011 14:56

Yes we could travel to her, she is 80 miles away. But, we would not ant to stay over, just there and back in a day but Mum has never cooked Christmas Dinner. Dad did. She would not know where to start. She has never cooked a Sunday roast believe it or not.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/03/2011 15:05

Dr N

FOG - fear, obligation, guilt are just some legacies that such toxic parents leave in their wake. Easy for me to say let your mother cry but she after all will do anything to get her own way. Her emotional development stopped many years ago and you have been trained/conditioned by her.

Some more excerpts that may be helpful:-

"From the outside, looking in, the narcissist family does not appear dysfunctional. Notice that the N family history - filled with unquestionable mythology - is replayed over and over till it sounds like the truth. No one questions present actions or past history of the narcissist. Guilt plays a big role in the family. Head games are the norm; little routines and pet names are used to brain wash children into thinking they are loved. Nothing is ever given to the child permanently.

Mothers and fathers who are narcissists treat their children much in the same way. If the children jump to the narcissists beck and call, mirror them, agree with them, then the narcissist parent will take care of them.

Ns train people to cater to their wishes and whims, like spoiled children. If you want to remain sane you have to be an adult with them - a child of a narcissist has a difficult time with this, because they have been trained not to act like an adult with their narcissist parent.

The way N parents operate is that they assign their children roles, a bit like birth order, and they have to fulfill whatever that position entails. No matter how hard you try, you cannot compete with the golden child, the chosen one, who represents the narcissists mother or father's image. As a child, you fill as if you disappoint the narcissist if you do something other than what they want - that holds true for your role in the family. A young child has few defenses against such monsters. Adult children of narcissists end up at the shrinks, wondering what happened. A few figure it out, others just keep suffering and falling into the same trap over and over.

The sequels of being raised by a narcissistic parent are many and varied. If you happen to be the golden boy or girl, the chosen one, then you think your mother or father is great, because they think you are great, the spitting image of them. They gloss over your failings, the divorces, the bad business deals (the other people's fault), and they are your fan club, deflecting criticism from you, bolstering your ego, always complimenting you and your wife and children. They think you are a god, or goddess. You probably know that you have feet of clay, and are imperfect, yet you want your wife or husband to treat you as the apple of your family's eye. It might dawn on you that you have problems, but blame it on someone else, never yourself. You might even think that you suffer from some mental disorder, but dismiss the idea as ridiculous, other people are crazy - not you.

On the other hand you might be the unlucky one, the one in the family who always gets the short end of the stick. No matter what you do, your parents, or one of them, never likes it. They are cold, distant, but when company drops by, they will put you on display and you have to perform, you have to make nice. God forbid you say the wrong thing. You will pay for it.

You may have a sibling who gets all the attention - no matter what they do - and no matter how hard you try, you will not admired like them. Instead you will be criticized, because is for you own good (sot the favorite one will not get jealous). You may start to turn inward, not let your inner feelings show, because they like to see you cringe, cry, and so you deny them that pleasure.

You may have trouble showing your true emotions later on in life, because you are afraid. But of what? When you were young, your emotions got you in trouble, for reasons you still don't understand. You feel incomplete, half alive, and your ego seems to be either at full blast or gone to sleep. You are shy, or the opposite. Not knowing how real people act, you are suspicious of strangers. Only your N mother or N father understands you, they say, so you are constantly going home, trying to recreate a childhood that never existed. Maybe you dream a lot, never grounded in reality, and miss things. If you are given a surprise party, you collapse into yourself, not wanting to be the center of attention, because someone else should get all the attention, not you. Deep down you hate your mother or father, and feel ashamed for the sentiment because everyone else thinks they are great".

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/03/2011 15:07

Dr N,

Some books that you may want to read:-

Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents by Nina Brown

If You Had Controlling Parents by Dan Neuharth

The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller

Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life by Susan Forward

Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golumb

Lemonylemon · 11/03/2011 15:17

DrN My mum was invited to my sister's on Christmas Day and my place on Boxing Day. In the end, I had 'flu', as did she. My brother and sister in law took round "meals on wheels" to her on Christmas Eve. I managed to cook a Christmas dinner for myself and my two kids and cater for the rest of the week.

My Mum decided that she wanted to spend Christmas Day by herself. "Christmas means nothing to me anymore. I want to spend it alone." Said in quite dramatic tones.....

Seriously, I don't think you should have her every Christmas. You say that she's got 5 sisters. Well, that's 5 out of 6 Christmases dealt with then.....

Attila I was the child who got the short end of the stick. For years I have worked hard on myself, reading self-help books etc and having counselling for bereavements which happened (these helped me to talk about my relationship with my mother). But even now I get annoyed when my teenage son questions my decisions.... That's not good is it? Or is it just a natural reaction to typical teenager back chat?

DrNortherner · 11/03/2011 15:57

Thanks for the book recommendations Atilla. Will check some of those out on Amazon over the weekend.

Lemony, I know she should not come here every christmas, but I fear I will feel (she will make sure I feel bad) so bad I will give in. Blimey, it's only March and here I am stressing about Christmas.

Plus, in Rl it's tough. Not many people know just how difficult she is, and the world seems to be full of people who love their Mums dearly and can not imagine not inviting them at Christmas.

I know this sounds awful, and I will probably go to hell for this, but I often dream of what life would be like if my Mum had died first and my lovely Dad was still here.

OP posts:
Lemonylemon · 11/03/2011 16:02

DrN - Sorry, I meant to put a Wink at the end of sentence. I know, you're between a rock and a hard place. Well, it is only March and you're stressing about Christmas already - but at least you have 7 months or so to read those books that have been recommended and then give yourself some armour to deal with upcoming situations. I really feel for you......

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/03/2011 16:28

Lemony

My BIL made the same sort of dramatic pronouncement with regards to Christmas as well some years ago. He also did this by writing a rambling and hate filled e-mail to his mother with a copy to my DH.

Hard as it is I would try not to be annoyed with your son. He likely does not know the full story behind your decision re your mother.

TeachMySelfBalance · 11/03/2011 16:58

Hi DrN
No I don't think it is silly to think about it now. Actually, it is a very good time to think about it.

When I suggested travel, I meant anywhere on Earth except her house. Go far far away. Book it this week and tell mom so she will have plenty of notice to make her plans. Yes she will moan for months on end-you have given her that gift. But you will simply smile to yourself and let her deal with her own life-which is the point.

Such a trip could be costly-doesn't have to be though; PEACE at Christmas: priceless.

I had the same caculation as Lemon (smile).

Thanks again Attila .
I was the invisible child as you could probably guess by my communication challenges.

Prunnhilda · 11/03/2011 17:09

DrNotherner, my mother isn't a narcissist but she is a nightmare (left us young/is incredibly dramatic, tears etc/has anger issues).

Over the years she's hinted that it would be wonderful to be at ds's birth - I can't tell you how bad that would have been; and that she would do best divorcing her husband and moving very near us so she could look after ds - nonononnonnonononoooo we would then have to move and anyway I caught her verbally abusing ds as a 5-yr-old in the street, and since then she hasn't been allowed sole care of him. So I fully expect the 'moving in with you' conversation to happen because she has no grip on reality, her husband is much older etc.

I am just going to tell her straight: we would both end up very, very unhappy so you will have to make other arrangements. I think with such a big issue, you just have to be as direct as possible so there is no ambiguity.

Don't know if that's any help (suspect not!) but wanted to empathise a bit. It is a huge worry to me, which surprises people when I mention it (so I've stopped) as she's only 54, but she keeps herself unhealthy and I fully expect her to be quite dependent before she's 60.

TeachMySelfBalance · 11/03/2011 17:13

DrN...you sound caught up in what others think. I feel you need to examine that and try to let it go. They do not suffer as you do. And you do not owe them an explanation (either).

Amongst other things in the post, the last paragraph of 15:05:40 particularly rings bells for me, Attila. It is good to review and go back over the puzzle.

I apologize to my teens occasionally as in sorry I didn't let you do that based on my 'distorted perception of reality'. Dh said that to me once, and it really felt insulting, but he was right.

Lemon, when the teens (ds-18, dd-16) second guess me it is a trigger for me and I really have to mandate a pause for myself and check my freight train of baggage (ie: think) before I respond...sometimes with, "Ok, we need to have a conference..." so they brace for a mini lecture and I reassert that I am parent and they are not.

I did have to set my son straight when he was 10 or 11 and he started on me with the "Are you sure?" crap at everything I did. He did respond and stopped doing it.

MrsSchadenfreude · 12/03/2011 09:20

Hi Dr N! It improves with time. not that they get better, they just HAVE to get used to doing things for themselves. My father used to dry my mother when she got out of the bath/shower. She never, ever did anything for herself. When he retired, she stopped driving, and made him take her to work and pick her up. Since he has died, she has managed to learn to both - and a whole raft of other stuff - reasonably competently.

One of the things she said to me after he died - "Why are you so upset? He was only your father. He was my husband...."

Stay strong and absolutely do not have her to live with you.

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