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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

out of the frying pan..?

104 replies

crimsonpetal · 24/10/2010 11:57

I posted on here a while ago about my DP not respecting my boundaries and, basically, making me cry. Everyone on here was great and told me that it wasn't right, and eventually I did get it together enough to split up with him (although I didn't tell him why, as that would have caused arguments - 'But I'm not like that' etc.)

However I'm now about a month into a new relationship and I'm worried it's the same thing. During sex, he really likes to put his hands round my neck and/or hold me really tight, almost crushing me or choking me. It's happened a few times. I tell him 'too tight' or 'let go' and he relaxes for a bit, but then it happens again as he's about to, you know, come.

Up until now I've been excusing it as the fact that a man can't remember a single thing right before he comes, and it must just be an instinctive thing. But is it a bit weird? Maybe I'm just oversensitive because of last time, but I would like some objective advice if that's possible...

OP posts:
crimsonpetal · 26/10/2010 23:39

Both through work, dittany, although they have different professions.

I could be on my own I suppose, but there has to be a man sooner or later because I want babies, basically, and the whole family thing. And I'm straight, so a man kind of has to be involved.

LittleMiss, he says he does want me to find someone else, so I can be happy. I don't know if that's true. I thought it was.

OP posts:
Eurostar · 27/10/2010 00:00

Is it a counsellor or therapist that you will see Crimson? Are they accredited?

crimsonpetal · 27/10/2010 00:06

He is BACP - that's the proper one, isn't it?

OP posts:
crimsonpetal · 27/10/2010 00:07

counsellor, I mean. Not sure of the difference between counsellor and therapist tbh

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/10/2010 00:22

crimson one of the issues I think you could look at is why you are so tolerant of men's failings, but are quite hard on women, especially married women with families. You see, like I said downthread, you seem to blame your Mum more than your Dad, believed a very one-dimensional story about your DP's ex-wife and I think this theme comes through in a lot of your posts.

If a female friend had bitten you on your breast, or had hurt your neck or any part of your body during a hug, I think you would have had a different reaction. Now although I expect you'll say that this was sexual and therefore different, it isn't really. These are people who were meant to treat you with dignity, but didn't, yet you let them off the hook, because they are men. Your Dad seemed to put his relationship with his new wife before you, yet you are quite benign about him and reserve more excoriating blame for your Mum.

Now your therapy might unlock some of this, but I'd be interested to see if I'm the only poster who sees this fascination with rich, powerful, successful older men as not just a Father complex, but an over-inflated opinion of men generally.

I was so sorry and shocked to read that you didn't end your previous relationship because of the violence and that if you hadn't belatedly realised that your ex-DP was
an attention-seeker, you might have stayed with him. As for your friends, in truth you never did tell them the full story, did you? I am pretty certain that they would have reacted like all of us did here, had you told them what really happened.

hwga · 27/10/2010 09:08

Crimsonpetal - you did so well getting out of your previous relationship (which you will be when you stop all contact with him, btw). I really hope that seeing a counsellor soon, with a few bits of the insights you hopefully are picking up, will enable you to help yourself to build on your self-esteem. At present, you are only a month into this new relationship; the more time that goes on in it, the harder it may be to get out of it. You are already letting a huge acceptable level of behaviour 'boundary' down with the behaviour during sex. After a month, where is the respect towards you from your new boyfriend?

hwga · 27/10/2010 09:14

Crimson - to answer my own question - abusive men do not respect women. But they can often present themselves as being respectful for quite a while (longer than a month). You have a big 'red flag' already here.

larrygrylls · 27/10/2010 09:22

I assure you that men can remember whatever they like at any point during sex. Whatever some posters may say on here, most of us are not animals.

His behaviour sounds really dangerous. You have been seeing him one month and he is strangling you?! I don't think you really need to be told the correct action, do you? Just to add a male voice, get out....now!

crimsonpetal · 27/10/2010 09:41

WWIFN - I know you think that about my attitudes to women but honestly, I don't think it's true. My mother has been completely horrible to me at times. Throughout my teenage years, she regularly forgot my birthday, started arguments/feuds with me about stupid things, forgot what A levels/degree I was doing, made no attempt to contact me for weeks on end when I was at university, told me I was too chubby, told me I was too thin, told me it was a massive mistake to dump my first boyfriend because no one would ever want me etc. etc. She is generally regarded as a PITA by the rest of her family (mostly women, btw) and regularly screwed up Christmas for everyone by 'not being bothered' to turn up for the sake of her elderly parents, or turning up but being horrible to people. She is a bit better now, but still has her moments.

My father, on the other hand, was the one I lived with after the divorce. He can be very passive/unnoticing but is never actively unkind. He remembers my birthday, is interested in my education/career etc. He is fairly socially incompetent, after a childhood of distant parents and boarding schools, and can be quite selfish. But there's certainly not so much to criticise with him as with my mother. Is that so hard to believe?

Regarding exDP's ex, I didn't accept his description of her entirely at face value - I realise that there was bound to be a bit of bias. But she is fundamentally a domestic-minded sort of person, and still babies their children quite a lot. There's no harm in this, of course, but I could sort of see his point.

If I'm completely honest, the main reasons for breaking up with DP were the fact that I didn't believe he could sustain interest in me longterm if I didn't remain perfect, and also I was worried that his age might cause problems with our potential baby - either the conceiving of it or chromosomal stuff. I wouldn't want to be pregnant straight away, so that would just add to his age.

I did tell my two best friends, properly, the first time the playfighting upset me. What had happened was, I was lying on the bed (sulking about something) and DP came and lifted up my feet and was kissing them and making a fuss, trying to take me out of myself. Then he folded my legs back so that my thighs were pressing against my chest and leant on my shins so that I couldn't breathe. I was fighting to get out but couldn't and shouting, and he did let me go about 5 seconds too late. I was really cross and upset but he didn't see the problem. Then we went to dinner and he was cross because I wanted a G&T instead of wine, so ordered a bottle of wine anyway and then got irritated that I wouldn't drink all of mine Hmm. The next morning he went out and I rang my two best friends and told them both what had happened because I was still annoyed and wanted someone to take me seriously. Both of them were of the 'Men are so annoying, they don't know their own strength' school of thought. Both their boyfriends had done similar, and we talked about how difficult it was to get them to listen Confused. So they weren't worried by it. Both their bfs are much younger than mine, and we are all quite young so I suppose we don't know about red flags yet, but I am sure they would have thought I was a bit mad if I'd said I was breaking up with him over it. Again with the biting, a few months later, they understood why I was cross but no one suggested it was a really bad thing or dangerous.

OP posts:
EightiesChick · 27/10/2010 09:47

Just to add something, you mentioned about your ex: "He used to tell me all the time how caring he was (and he is 99% of the time). He really believes it"

Someone who was really caring wouldn't need to say so all the time. It would be evident. He was telling you that to make you believe it.

You deserve better than this. That's what you have to make yourself believe.

hwga · 27/10/2010 10:06

As you are young, and you want children, you have still time to find someone who is actually nice.

dittany · 27/10/2010 12:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/10/2010 13:48

As I recall, Crimson, you said on your earlier thread that you hadn't told your friends that your ex's violence had made you cry. You minimised it to them. You for example, call it "playfighting" which is vastly different to what most, if not all of us on this thread, frame as "violence". I suppose I'm a bit dubious about their reaction, because if a female friend told me that her partner had bitten her on her breast and hurt her during sex, I wouldn't be bargaining that away with some anodyne "men, tsk!!" remark - and wouldn't have done when I was 18, let alone 26/27.

Your Mum sounds toxic Crimson and I am in no way minimising her behaviour or your reaction to it - she failed you, make no mistake. But your Dad failed you too, just in different ways. I think his malignant influence had far more of an effect on you than you're acknowledging, or you wouldn't have this problem of only being attracted to middle-aged alpha males who want to be a controlling parent to your child. Men who want to punish you, while pretending that they care for you and want what's best for you.

I think you did buy that story about the frigid, domesticity-obsessed ex-wife, until you came on here and saw a contrary reaction. I think it was only then that you started to question it and made the ex-wife a more three-dimensional character. Because you haven't got DCs yet, I'm still not sure you get this completely - that a couple's ego and attention needs have to recede after children, but I'm glad that you finally realised that your ex-DP was too selfish and self-absorbed to father children or put your, or their needs, before his own. I think you were absolutely right, but I still think you would tolerate infidelity and all kinds of relationship-reducing behaviours, including violence, simply because it is a man doing it.

hwga · 27/10/2010 15:39

Crimson, you said you finally got it together enough to split from your previous partner. Maybe worth looking at this present relationship as sending you down a similar path to the previous one where you will find yourself, the further you go down it, having to muster all the strength you can - AGAIN (with your self-esteem lowered further)- to remove yourself from it - and have a fresh start (boyfriend-free for a period next time next time).

hwga · 27/10/2010 15:41

Sorry to repeat next time. Boyfriend-free for a good period of time to recover and work on yourself.

crimsonpetal · 27/10/2010 15:54

I will be able to split with this one. I think I thought the best way to get over a man was to get another one, but it hasn't really worked because I've just gone for the same man again. He is away at the moment, which has given me this chance for reflection. If he was still here, I probably would not have posted, because I would have been so 'full up' of him and his worldview that there wouldn't be space for any other view.

Fully separating from exDP will be harder. He is also away at the moment (bloody half term) but we are still in contact nearly every day. I feel empty without it, tbh.

OP posts:
EightiesChick · 27/10/2010 16:09

Set yourself a target, say 7 days, to go without contact with your ex, and take it from there. It's easier if you have a specific timeline. Maybe send a text to say you'll be away/are changing your phone so you'll be out of contact, so he gets a warning, and then aim to stick to silence. If you can do 7 days, it will get easier. If you find you crack, you need to start again the next day and just keep trying. Contact with him is just going to continue to mess you up. Plus you need to replace your contacting him with something - basically like chewing gum instead of smoking IYSWIM. Think of someone else you can contact, or something you can read/watch/do when you feel like contacting him.

perfumedlife · 27/10/2010 16:36

Hi Crimson, I remember your first thread.

The saddest line is right there in your last post. @I would have been so 'full up' of him and his worldview that there wouldn't be space for any other view'

That screams at me that you have no sense of self, no self esteem and no idea of how to be you. I cannot conceive of how much crap you take from these men. Why should a male point of view take precedence over yours, or fill you up with his thoughts and leave no space for yours? You are valid, you are worth opinions, you are worth being gently held and made love to, you are worth a lifetime of happiness.

Please get rid of him, take time at the counselling to dig deep and find that lovely woman crimson, and bring her out, bold and confident and demanding the best.

Faaamily · 27/10/2010 16:49

'I think I thought the best way to get over a man was to get another one, but it hasn't really worked because I've just gone for the same man again.'

Got it in one.

Until you work out why you are attracted to these sort of men and get some proper boundaries and ground rules sorted out in your own head for what is and isn't acceptable behaviour from a partner, you will keep on attracting the fuck ups. Trust me. Been there, bought the tee-shirt etc etc.

If you really want babies and a family, it's even more important that you get these issues sorted for yourself a.s.a.p.

I nearly had a child with an abusive man (we tried, but I never got pregnant). Thank fuck I didn't. I look back now and shudder at the thought of bringing a daughter into the world with a father who had such a low opinion of women as my ex. Or a son, who would model himself on a man who thought casual violence towards women was acceptable.

please do think these things through and get some impartial support from a counsellor. It will do you thr world of good, I promise you.

ItsGhoulAgain · 27/10/2010 17:17

You have a peculiar attitude to men. To you, they are a slightly different species - a superior one. You must do your best to understand how they think/feel, and use that knowledge to please & placate them. It's very much the mindset of a slave, who wishes to become the favourite & so gain his owner's protection - from the owner's own abuses. You have dedicated so much of your life to developing this 'specialised knowledge', perhaps unconsciously, that you've pretty well failed to understand yourself or humans in general. Because, of course, men are humans in general. No better, no worse, no less varied, no stronger or weaker, than any other human.

Every positive you've ever stated about yourself is couched in terms that highlight your attractiveness. You're good-looking, childlike, positive, successful, don't mind being hurt during sex. You are the template of an abuser's ideal woman. I can hazard a good guess as to how you got like this, as can most of your other respondents. It will only make full sense to you when you discover it for yourself. I want you to become a fully-paid-up human, OP, because it's so clear there is one in you! Your instincts are fine; they're trying to protect you. The pathetically approval-hungry doll you have trained yourself to be shouts down the 'real you' but we can all see she's in there.

I agree you need time - plenty of time - without a man in your bed. make the effort to connect with your same-age & same-sex friends. I'm delighted you've booked counselling - well done! PROMISE not to flirt, or try to win his approval in any way. You could do worse than advise him, on your frst meeting, that you're liable to do so.

You may well disagree with every word I've written, but please make that promise anyway.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/10/2010 17:23

Brilliant post Grace.

dittany · 27/10/2010 17:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

crimsonpetal · 27/10/2010 19:54

I am a bit of a man-pleaser, I can see that. To be fair to him, I don't think exDP took advantage of that. Except for the few incidents I described, he was caring, thoughtful, cuddled me, was gentle, looked after me when I was ill etc. It's not as though it is/was 24/7 crap - I found the relationship to be overwhelmingly positive.

My life feels empty without a relationship, even though it looks great on paper. I'm fed up with being by myself. I seem to spend my lunchbreaks staring into prams! I don't see the point of spending time by myself, it just seems like a waste.

It hurts a bit to be described as not quite human, but I see your point.

OP posts:
ItsGhoulAgain · 27/10/2010 20:22

Thanks for that :) I do worry about getting a bit too quickly to my point! I am unsure whether you posted - a while back - that you thought you may have BPD? Even if that isn't you, I feel it's important to stress that a 'real' you shines through your posts, almost against your surface self iywim? You don't sound very BPD but you do sound awfully like someone who's defined life according to a completely bonkers set of values. As you've probably guessed, I empathise hugely with that. Your posts could have been written by my mum, and my replies could have been addressed to my younger self.

I'd rather like to think you can break out of this stupid bubble before having a breakdown at 45!!

ItsGhoulAgain · 27/10/2010 20:29

... ummm, and of course: if you feel like spending time with yourself is a waste, that speaks volumes about your true self-worth :(

I do hope the counselling works out for you.