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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How long does it take?

92 replies

ChristianSalvesen62 · 20/10/2010 14:31

Hi, I've been lurking on here for a while, trying to find answers to my questions, but to no avail!

My husband of 20 years had an affair with my friend 2 years ago and, to cut a long story short, we're still together - thanks to Relate - and we both understand the reasons for the affair, etc, etc. Our relationship is so lovely now and is what we both always wanted, but were too scared to ask for, for fear of rebuff :(

My question is, how long will it be until I don't think about it every day? Oh, and how long until I trust him again?

Sometimes I feel like I'm still obsessed with all the details of the affair and I still go over conversations I had with 'her' in my mind, trying to work out why I didn't realise sooner what was going on. Even now, I'll have a light-bulb moment when I remember yet another thing she said to me and it's real meaning! Shock

My DH has been very patient, but I sometimes wonder if I am 'self-destructing'?

OP posts:
CaringSharing · 20/10/2010 14:34

Must be terrible.

Maybe if you had a one night stand you could at least have a feeling of revenge.

I've never been, or found out that I am, in this situation, always say to DH if he screwed around I'd do the same.

C

BaggyAgy · 20/10/2010 14:52

Hi CS62, sorry about your situation. Personally I find it very hard to forgive and impossible to forget. Gradually it does get less ever-present. However, what comes around sometimes goes around. He may yet get his just deserts/punishment. The best revenge is to enjoy your life inspite of his behaviour. My exh got very very ill and then lonely. I didn't wish it on him, but it happened.

CaringSharing · 20/10/2010 14:54

Karma BaggyAgy?

MalificenceBloodandSand · 20/10/2010 14:55

Caring - that's a real nice twisted sense of logic you have there. Hmm

CaringSharing · 20/10/2010 15:02

These things happpen.

I'm a fate-ist.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 20/10/2010 16:54

But I don't want to 'get even' :)

We have a very good relationship now. I've forgiven, but I can't seem to forget (stop obsessing). I seem to be the only one of the triangle who hasn't moved on and I hate it.

OP posts:
snugglepiggy · 20/10/2010 17:39

So iterested to read your post.I;m doing just the same severl months after finding out about DH's EA with woman at work so for you to recover after ffair with friend I cn totally understand why you've obsessed for so long.How hard for you!Like you we are now happier and stronger together but every day I have flshbcks to discovery or little signals I should have read.nd yes the conversations I'd still like to have with OW.Spoke to her in immediate aftermath bit so much more I could have said!Keep re-reding 'Not just freinds' by Shirley Glass-the bits bout healing and recovery as really hate this dwelling on details-and don't want to undo all the hard work we've both put in so far.Got to dash but just to say thinking of you!

Lolass · 20/10/2010 18:04

My DH had a full blown affair about 17 months ago, she was not a friend so I realise this has been a double betrayal for you. I won't go into details again as about 3 weeks ago I wrote in answer to snugglepiggys post.as you've been to Relate I imagine you have been recommended lots of books, I also
recommend 'How can I ever trust you again?'by Andrew G.Marshall, he explains the stages of recovery and how we can get stuck in some stages and how to move on, etc.,

ChristianSalvesen62 · 20/10/2010 20:22

I still see OW around and have to pass her house regularly. Half of me wants to go and ask her "Why?" but I know the answer really, as she's always been a bit of a slapper......

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 20/10/2010 20:39

Where is WWIFN when we need her? Hmm

OP posts:
PercyPigPie · 20/10/2010 20:53

My husband hasn't (as far as I am aware) been unfaithful, so I don't have any real wisdom to add to this post other than ... I think you need to concentrate on him, not her. There is a certain type of woman, who through her own inadequacies/issues chase a man who is attached. There is nothing you can do about her, so you need to concentrate on you two. You need to make sure you are communicating honestly so that it won't happen again.

I have a 'friend' who I am sure would shoot into bed at any opportunity with my DH. The only reason she is a friend, in inverted commas, at all is that I feel a bit sorry for her due to issues she has had in the last year (suicide attempt) and feel I should be vaguely supportive - plus I trust my DH.

Ignore her - she is a sad desperate looser. Concentrate on the two of you.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 20/10/2010 21:32

I'm here Christian - do I know you by another name then?

I'm giving some thought to a reply for you, but wanted to give you a considered response. Long day at work today and so might not be able to come back till later, or tomorrow.

LadyButterfly · 20/10/2010 23:37

In a similar situation it took me years to 'fully' let it go but the good days increased and the bad lessened over time. I say 'fully' because I can still tell you the exact dates I found out about the affairs (yes there was more than one). We have stuck it out and things are better than before but it is still hard. You can't change him, you can't change her, you can only change yourself. You can waste time looking backwards but this is destructive and no-one gains, least of all you. We both had a real fright when we faced up to splitting up and this brought to the fore all the good bits - it really helps me to think of these when the rotten thoughts creep in. Be proud that you are strong and forgiving and also remember the vote of confidence that he has given your relationship ie he chose to re-commit to you and dropped the slapper AND he has gone to Relate. Rise above it and get on and really focus on living the life YOU want from here on!

ChristianSalvesen62 · 21/10/2010 07:48

WWIFN - no, I've just seen your answers to other posters on here......

Ladybutterfly - that's a lovely post, thanks. I know you're right, I generally feel okay when I'm with him, but when we're apart, I find I think of him as still being the cold, uncaring person he was two years ago. This must drive him wild, because he couldn't be more open and attentive in RL :)

Today I feel good because last night he decided to come home for the weekend and he wasn't supposed to be this week as he's here for a long weekend next week, so it's a nice surprise. He works in another country, (but the OW lives here), and we see each other about 2-3 weekends a month, with him coming here, or me going over there.

Anyway, got to go to work Wink

OP posts:
Lolass · 21/10/2010 08:48

I know what you mean about feeling okay when you're with him, I feel the same. It's when we're not together that my imagination gets carried away or back and I see him as he was 17/20 months ago.9cold, uncaring and completly focused on her (witchyface))

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 21/10/2010 09:59

In the past few days Christian this site has been invaded by trolls masquerading as new posters. One of them is on this thread, so at the moment, I think some of us are suspicious about new posters and wary of giving too much time to non-existent problems.

However, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, worry that real posters with real problems might get ignored and hope that any response will assist someone somewhere, with the same problem.

A few questions, however, before saying more.

You ask how long it will take to trust again - what is it that you don't trust at the moment?

How is that lack of trust manifesting itself? Are you still hyper-vigilant and checking things like phone bills, E mails etc.?

Have you both read a book called Not Just Friends?

Who do you think was responsible for the affair?

If you think the OW was a "slapper", what do you think about your H's sexual behaviour?

What changes could you make to your lifestyle so that you are together more frequently?

What character traits existed in your H to permit his infidelity? How have these changed? An infidelity choice doesn't happen in a vaccuum.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 21/10/2010 11:27

WWIFN, I have posted once before, on Castille's thread, but under a different name, which I changed because I felt anyone who really knows me would know it was me - it was too easy, if you see what I mean?

When I'm with my DH, I do trust him - and even when we're apart I do most of the time. He has jumped through hoops to make things right, but sometimes, (mostly at night) I start thinking about it and off I go! I know, deep down, that he is truly sorry for what he did, but there is a part of me that can't let it go. I still make him text me the minute he gets home if he's been out (which is rarely) while he's away. Last week he went out with friends and got too drunk to text and I spent the night convinced he was with some random OW!! This has a dire effect on me and my bowels :) and I feel like I'm back at square one! Even this far down the line...

I don't check phones, emails etc, but have been known to check on his facebook page. He knows I know the password and doesn't mind. He knows mine as well, so it's not a big thing.

I've just been on Amazon this morning and bought the "Not Just Friends" book after it being mentioned by lots of people on various threads.

I know we were both responsible for the affair, we had let everything slip, and sex, (or lack of it), was one of our main problems. We've been married over 20 years and have 2 almost grown up DCs. According to our Relate lady - a 65yr old life saver and angel, DH was on the verge of a stress breakdown and I was too preoccupied with my own problems/misery to notice. I thought (wrongly) that he would never stray and neglected to tell him how much I love him. He thought our marriage was over and so it goes on....... I could tell you so much more but, two years on, you'd think I'd be over it?

My friend, (the slapper :)) basically saw all this happening and made her move. She's single, our age, had been 'friends' with me for nearly 19 years, on and off. I now see she thought this was all some amusing game as she told me after I found out that I deserved to lose him, because I was so smug and self-satisfied........ I only call her the slapper because I've known her and her life story for so long - and I kick myself for almost allowing this to happen, by assuming that DH was infallible and that she was a better friend than she turned out to be.

They had sex, but never penetrative sex - I know that's true because she told me and this fitted in with our 'problem'. I was quite shocked by this because I would've expected that to be the first thing he wanted, having not had it for so long. So basically I think it was mostly oral sex, from what I've been told.

Him working overseas is not permanent, more of a 'posting' IYSWIM? It won't be forever and he does come home as often as possible. The time we have together is lovely and definitely 'quality time'.

Character traits? The Relate Angel (she was so lovely I wanted to keep her) worked it out to being the least favourite child out of three and therefore he needs to know that he's loved and needed. When he wasn't getting that at home, (which I admit), and he could see that it was on offer within our group of friends, I guess he was flattered and felt wanted/needed again?

This all makes him sound awful, but he's not. He's a loving, funny, kind & gentle man and a good dad. Obviously he's not perfect, but, until this happened I'd never had any reason to be worried or even suspicious.

Oooops, this is VERY long - sorry Blush

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 21/10/2010 12:42

Hmm..you might regret asking me to come onto your thread then Christian because I am going to challenge some of this stuff. I also think some of your beliefs might actually be holding you back, so I post this in the hope that it will help.

Only two people were responsible for this affair; him and the OW. That is why I asked you the question, because I wondered whether you had taken erroneous responsibility for it. However you had equal responsibility for the marriage, with your H. This is a really important distinction.

I wonder whether prior to his affair, your H was coming to you with his concerns about your marriage and giving you a chance to address it? Or perhaps he didn't realise he was feeling so unloved, until the OW started showering him with attention, because that often happens? In which case, your H had a choice at that point to come to you and tell you that he had realised his needs were not being met in the marriage. I guess he didn't do that and had an affair instead? Infidelity is all about a series of choices and as you will see from the book when you read it, no-one can prevent infidelity in another person.

I worry that you have absorbed a message that because you weren't giving enough attention, your H had an affair. I wonder whether you could ask instead how much your H was giving to you before he had an affair? He evidently wasn't giving you the opportunity to see how imperilled your marriage was, but I'll bet there were other things too.

Meanwhile you are kicking yourself wondering why you didn't realise, why you didn't guess, why you were so complacent, why you didn't meet his needs. Honestly, this is the wrong approach. You trusted him and you trusted her. You should never berate yourself for trusting, because like you say, before this happened, your trust default was enormous. If you were complacent, then I'm sure he was too.

You think it was your responsibility to notice that your H was on the verge of a stress breakdown, whereas I think that it was his responsibility to tell you how bad he was feeling. But that is another example of when he wasn't giving enough, whereas you berate yourself for him not responding to a need that hadn't even been articulated. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Now the Relate angel might well be right that your H had a need for attention and adoration, but we all do, in our romantic relationships and that is not a need peculiar to him, regardless of any childhood issues. Tell me, did you feel adored, cherished and that your needs were being met prior to his affair?

You expressed surprise that the affair didn't seem to be sex-motivated, perhaps because there is a myth that this is what affairs are about. It doesn't surprise me that it wasn't the defining part of the affair, because I suspect this was all about an ego boost that could have been achieved with sexual flattery and adoration and not necessarily, sexual activity.

I think you might reframe this somewhat when you read the book and I am constantly amazed when Relate counsellors haven't read what I think is the definitive work on infidelity (and believe me, I've read a lot of books about this subject now).

However, for now, how likely is it that your H and you could agree on the following as a summary of the affair?

You and your H had got into a habit of not adoring eachother enough; life and responsibility got in the way. You were having some sexual difficulties, but you trusted eachother implicitly, as you trusted your joint friends to support your marriage.

Your H was feeling stressed about a whole host of other issues, but he didn't give enough of himself to share with you, how bad he was feeling. He pretended that he was in better shape than he was and you are not a mind-reader.

He chose instead to share his insecurities with someone else and that person had an agenda to ruin his marriage and punish you because of her own jealousy. He put her compliments and affection before you, for a while. When he realised how much he was enjoying this flattery, he chose again to shut you out and not tell you how he was feeling. When he started this affair, he treated you badly and put his ego needs above his loyalty to you. This affair wasn't about sex, but it was about shallow and false adoration from someone whose opinion was worthless.

Both of you weren't giving to or getting enough from the marriage, but only one of you gave to or got, from someone outside of it. You were denied the chance to resolve issues, because he wasn't bringing them to you and you were being deceived.

Now, one of the ways you can affair-proof your future marriage is to understand that being an adoring and sexually attentive wife does not prevent infidelity, except your own. That's because if you are giving that much to your marriage, it follows that you won't want to damage something in which you are heavily invested. Likewise if your husband is equally adoring and sexually attentive to you, that means he's heavily invested in the relationship and will want to preserve his fidelity.

This concept takes a while to get your head around, because it flies in the face of so many infidelity myths and causes discomfort in those who are smug enough to think that as long as they are jumping through hoops and catering to their partner's every need, this won't happen to them. It is the "prevention myth".

The person least likely to be unfaithful is the one who adores, not the one who doesn't feel adored.

Now, there is much more about infidelity that you'll see from the book, about individual/lifestyle and relationship vulnerabilities, as well as attachment styles and learning to recognise the red flags in your own responses to people who wish your marriage harm and I am absolutely saying that the relationship you have built now is going to be a better deterrent to infidelity than the marriage that preceded it, but that is because you are both giving.

Finally, trust is absolutely restored once you both accept that he understands that he controls his own fidelity and that no-one else can. If you know he understands that and wouldn't do this to himself again (it is under-estimated how much damage it causes to the unfaithful party) and that you cannot prevent it, trust becomes 100% easier.

You see, there will be times ahead in your marriage when your individual ego needs will be subsumed by life and other challenges. When one of you cannot give as much to the marriage, because someone or something else is consuming your attention. Knowing that your partner understands this and cuts you some slack, instead of reaching for the empty calories of an OW, will increase your security and faith.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 21/10/2010 13:14

OMG!! WWIFN, are you one of my friends in RL??? Your answer seems sooooooo 'knowing' of the whole situation :) and the sequence of events that brought about the affair - without me actually telling you the whole story Grin

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 21/10/2010 13:28

No, I'm not one of your friends and I don't know your story, but I have yet to come across an affair that doesn't follow the script that I mentioned in my last post - and that's why Shirley Glass was so brilliant, because she reached these conclusions after years of research, administering psycho-therapeutic help to thousands of couples trying to rebuild in the wake of disaster.

Any other thoughts?

BaggyAgy · 21/10/2010 13:33

Hi, yes what a post. WWIFN can you tell me why Shirley Glass is right and anyone who thinks differently, and there are so many, are wrong. Why do so many therapists say that for infidelity to have occurred, the marriage/relationship must have had a problem/not met the adulterer's needs. This is not a challenge, it is an open question because your approach is interesting and very comforting to cheated on partners/spouses.

Why don't you become a therapist, provided always that you don't abandon MN? Why don't you write a book, or write an agony aunt column?

ChristianSalvesen62 · 21/10/2010 13:47

I will be back later, but am at work at the moment, so shouldn't really be on here ;)

OP posts:
romneymarsh · 21/10/2010 14:42

WWIFN that was, as usual a fantastic post, Im sure this will help CS62 very much. I agree with Baggy you have an amazing talent in the field of infidelity and affairs you really should become a therapist, you are the angel of mumsnet for this type of post.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 21/10/2010 14:50

BaggyAggy Gosh, where to start in answer to your question?

The most compelling reason is that quite apart from my own situation, I have known about a lot of affairs - some at very close quarters - and they all follow this pattern about the unfaithful party under-investing in the relationship before their infidelity. I've yet to come across one affair on these boards that didn't follow that pattern.

Now the reasons for that can be varied and complex and the problem with "giving and getting" is that it can be circuitous in nature. And at the time, few people have the self-awareness to realise that they have checked out of the marriage, to any degree at all.

At one end of the spectrum is the person who is actually heavily invested in the marriage, loves their partner to bits, but this person is actually quite lazy and complacent about the relationship and the efforts needed to give more to it.Typically, this is the person who dislikes talking about the relationship and passes the responsibility for its overall health to their partner. If someone asked them, they would insist they were very happily married and would be affronted if anyone suggested that they weren't giving enough. Let's call this Example A.

At the other end of the spectrum - Example Z - there are the people who have become so locked in a "victim" script of being deprived of love, affection or sex, that they fail to notice when they have withdrawn themselves, or given up. These individuals tend to blame their partner for their own infidelity, neglecting that actually, there was a different choice they could have made, that would have allowed them to emerge with their dignity and self-respect intact. People whose affairs are punitive in nature are the least introspective of all, IMO.

Example A is the perfect example of an how an affair can happen when the marriage is good and happy, but could do with some attention. However, the couple are often amazed when it turns out that in this marriage, the person having the affair was actually the one who was over-benefitted in the relationship. The faithful partner was in fact the unhappier of the two.

When an affair happens in Example Z - the marriage is characterised by the unhappiness of both of the participants. Sometimes both parties have withdrawn from eachother and it is a question of who will flinch first, who gets the opportunity to be unfaithful or even the moral code of the faithful partner.

In these instances, infidelity really is a symptom of a deeper malaise and is just another in a long list of marriage-reducing behaviours by both parties. However, infidelity is just about the worst choice for dealing with the problem, because there are always other routes to take, including exiting the relationship with dignity and transparency. What is clear though is that prior to the infidelity, the unfaithful partner has stopped giving to the relationship.

I'm not sure that this is comforting to faithful people Baggy because many people truly believe they can control their partner's fidelity, if they give, give, give and then give some more to the relationship. Many people are truly astonished when an affair is uncovered, because their sex-life was rich and varied and it seemed as though their partner's every need was being attended to. "Why wasn't I enough for you?" and "I didn't deserve that" are familiar laments. I have even heard women say "I'm not the sort of woman who is cheated on. I look good, I enjoy sex and this sort of thing happens to other people..."

Actually I think it's quite a scary notion that none of us can prevent this happening, but it's also liberating because it takes away the erroneous blame that many betrayed partners feel, or the mis-placed responsibility for the affair happening in the first place.

Thanks for the career recommendation Baggy! I've often thought about it, but I already run a business and helping people for more altruistic motives on this board is enough for me at the moment - but I would love to write a book about this and am actively considering some options to do this Smile.

BaggyAgy · 21/10/2010 17:18

WWIFN many thanks. I need to read and re-read all of that and digest it.

Your help really does relieve a lot of misery. You are very unselfish in the time you take to post. You also explain things clearly and without judging. Bravo!

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