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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How long does it take?

92 replies

ChristianSalvesen62 · 20/10/2010 14:31

Hi, I've been lurking on here for a while, trying to find answers to my questions, but to no avail!

My husband of 20 years had an affair with my friend 2 years ago and, to cut a long story short, we're still together - thanks to Relate - and we both understand the reasons for the affair, etc, etc. Our relationship is so lovely now and is what we both always wanted, but were too scared to ask for, for fear of rebuff :(

My question is, how long will it be until I don't think about it every day? Oh, and how long until I trust him again?

Sometimes I feel like I'm still obsessed with all the details of the affair and I still go over conversations I had with 'her' in my mind, trying to work out why I didn't realise sooner what was going on. Even now, I'll have a light-bulb moment when I remember yet another thing she said to me and it's real meaning! Shock

My DH has been very patient, but I sometimes wonder if I am 'self-destructing'?

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 27/10/2010 11:28

It is entirely possible that he was detaching himself from me. Due to his job, he was away every week for at least 2-3 days/nights. I did tell him after the other things happened that I thought I might be depressed as I couldn't stop crying. To give him his due, he said he didn't care about the lack of sex, as long as I still loved him, (and did suggest I saw a doctor, but I refused), so I don't think it had started then. But a few months later he did something totally out of character for him and it hurt me a lot. Nothing major, he just gave me a huge mouthful in front of my work colleagues, which was totally unwarranted. It just made me feel stupid, but made him look even stupider, if you see what I mean? And it was over something really silly. If I'd done it to him, he'd have probably divorced me on the spot :)
I think DH sort of left me to worry about our DS, because he had a really stressful job. Then we moved here and his next job was even more stressful, but was a job he'd always dreamed of, so I thought he was thriving on it and happy. However, in reality, he was about to implode. OW knew all about the external factors.
No, I know I'm not in denial about DH's knowledge of what the OW was telling me. I know that he had no idea what she was up to. I think his reaction on hearing some of the things was disbelief at first, that she could've said them. I actually think that he thought I was lying to him about it, but now he realises I had nothing left to gain by lying to him. We haven't really talked that much about that aspect of it all.

I have to say that it's mostly my fault that we don't talk much about it. I always 'want' to talk, but when we're together, we're so happy that I don't want to upset us both by bringing it up. This doesn't help me though, because I then 'imagine' what I don't know. When I do find out little bits of truth, (as in the number of actual visits), I'm surprised, because in my head there were so many more visits Hmm I know he hates talking about it, purely because it makes him feel even worse than he already does, but he's going to have to tell me, I think, otherwise we're going to be in limbo for longer than necessary!
DH does accept all the blame for what happened, he doesn't agree that it was partly my fault - I just have always accepted that I played my part in it all. But, I was only seeing the few months before the affair actually started, not the previous couple of years. It's you who has made me realise it didn't 'just happen' and that there was a lot more to it.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/10/2010 13:18

Christian I have read your last post very carefully.

So, what you are saying is that after those horrible things happened, even though one of them affected his son, your H left you to deal with the aftermath, because he was so stressed with his job. When you couldn't stop crying and wondered whether you were suffering from situational depression, he suggested you went to the doctors. You interpret that as a kind gesture.

I want you to timeline his outburst in front of your work colleagues. When exactly did this happen? When I saw this, I was reminded of what I wrote in the affair chronology:

He might start to say things in company that jar and hurt a little.

So, if anything, the above is an under-statement. I imagine you bargained this away at the time as being a response to work stress? But I note you said it was totally out of character and if the situations had been reversed and you had rubbished him in front of his colleagues, he would have divorced you. Again, reverse this then. What would have prevented you doing the same to him, at that time?

Have a think about what respect he held you in at this time, to do this. To have an affair in the first place requires the adulterer to reduce the respect in which their partner is held by them. This little vignette about the blow-up in front of your colleagues is hugely helpful in terms of timelining his detachment, so I commend you for recalling this.

You are saying that his previous job resulted in him being stressed and then the next job, which meant the family following his dreams and you presumably losing your support network, caused even more stress. A couple of questions about that, then.

In your marriage, has it been characterised by his dreams and aspirations, yours or all of you? How much discussion was there about the effect on you and the family, of moving so far away? How were your dreams and aspirations accommodated - not necessarily career orientated, but the things in life that fulfilled you?

Is there any link between this move such a long way away and the OW, whom you had known for 19 years, but seemed to live near this new place? You said upthread that this had been an on-off friendship and therefore assume that the "off" phases were created by distance. How did it come to pass that she was so near this new location and was it geographical proximity that meant the friendship was resumed in earnest? Did she work at his new place?

You say you haven't talked much about what the OW was doing or saying to you while the affair was ongoing, but you don't think your H was complicit in it at all. Do you recognise it as emotional abuse, Christian?

Have you and he had a conversation yet about what was said about you and your marriage, by both of them, during the affair? His behaviour towards you during the affair was at the extreme end of cruelty and coldness and seems synonymous with you being demonised and dehumanised by one or both of them.

Have you decided yet why you didn't tell him about your mutual friend's new love affair? It's the sort of thing a married couple, to whom she had become a mutual friend, would talk about, unless you had agreed a pact of confidentiality with her?

It was a fairly risky strategy on her part, because from what you're saying, your H would have recoiled in horror at his wife being abused in this way. She must have thought that he would go along with it and extract as much twisted satisfaction as she was, otherwise the risk would have been too great.

You see the lack of talking about this as your fault, but yet acknowledge that he hates talking about it too. The problem with this is that I don't doubt he dislikes talking about it, but he holds all the pieces to this jigsaw puzzle and doesn't have to fill in the gaps. You on the other hand, have been tormenting yourself with what you don't know and therefore, what you suspect. The information held by you both is imbalanced and the control and power is held by him. Yet he won't come to you and give you that gift of some peace of mind? Why do you think that is?

It's interesting that he has never blamed you himself and that it is you who has presumed that you must have brought this on yourself in some way. Going way back upthread, I think this is exactly what happens because of this flawed belief that the betrayed partner is in any way responsible for someone else's infidelity. And this is why this belief is so harmful, because although the person who should know best (him) was telling you this was not your fault, you can't quite believe it, because so many people believe otherwise, including you, up to now.

As you have discovered, taking erroneous blame actually makes you feel worse, not better and it stops you moving on and healing.

And until this thread, your response behaviour to his detachment has been regarded by you as causative behaviour that propelled him towards an affair.

It is clear that you still have a long way to go as a couple in terms of communication, not helped I'm sure by these long absences. I think you're absolutely right about how vital it is that you talk about this, but I think you'd be better off starting from scratch almost and challenging together, everything that has been accepted as the truth of this story.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 28/10/2010 09:34

The nature of his job (Forces) dictates that we move every few years and I knew this before we got married - in fact, as a Forces child, I get itchy feet anyway, after a certain length of time. And, yes, the on-off friendship was down to this as well. She didn't work in the same place, or even in the same town, but lives very close to where we do.
I'm not sure I thought about what she was doing as emotional abuse, when I realised about all the conversations we'd had. I just put it down to her 'bunny-boiling' personality, which I'd always known about. Unfortunately, DH had never considered this side of her - I don't even think he'd noticed to be honest. Also, I don't think I even knew there was such a thing as emotional abuse! We haven't discussed what was said, by either of them, about me, during the affair. (Although OW was very quick to tell me some things they'd said, after I found out!) I did tell DH some of the things she'd said, but not all, I guess. We were getting further apart and didn't talk that much during those few months. But also, I didn't 'approve' of what she was telling me, (probably down to my 'smugness' again...), about what she was doing with a married man, so I probably wouldn't have told DH much of it anyway.

DH did say that things started to get out of control, (his control anyway), because she started telling him to leave me and saying that, if he didn't tell me, she was going to. I think it was about then that she researched his pension for him and he said alarm bells started ringing.
It's funny, even as I'm writing this, I wondering if this is the way it all happened, because, like you say, he holds the jigsaw pieces.........

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 28/10/2010 09:56

I should add that I keep referring to my 'smugness' on here because of something she said to me after the whole thing came out, which was:

"You deserved to lose him because you're so bloody self-righteous, self-satisfied and smug!"

I worried about whether she was right for a while and then decided it was just another way to try and bat me down further.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 28/10/2010 20:30

Christian just in from work. Long day...

Any other thoughts to some of the other questions?

I also thought it might be helpful to you, if you recapped for yourself where you're at now in terms of what you think - and what's next?

ChristianSalvesen62 · 28/10/2010 21:08

WWIFN, am going to discuss your points with DH this weekend, as he's home again tomorrow morning - and give you a well earned rest Wink

You really are amazing - where did you learn all this stuff?

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 28/10/2010 21:31

Okay, Christian. I want you to take this at the pace that suits you and only answer those questions you're comfortable with. But if you can, when you come back, either before or after your chat with DH, can you just post what conclusions you've reached now, as I think that will help you?

In your shoes, I'd probably do this before you chat to your H, but you don't have to do that on here, if you don't want to. And I'm really happy to help and am not getting tired of this at all, I just wanted to let you know in my previous post, why I haven't been able to get back to you quickly today. Smile

ChristianSalvesen62 · 28/10/2010 22:51

I can't work out which question(s) I've missed out :)
I've been back over your post from yesterday and am still confused! I thought I'd answered them all, but am obviously missing something?

Conclusion? I've come to the conclusion that I really need to talk to DH properly about this, for one thing. I've not pushed it before because I sometimes wondered if I was being a tad melodramatic! What I didn't realise until I came on MN is that the way I feel is completely normal....

I can see that this started a long time before the affair started. The incident where he embarrassed me at work was at least a year before the affair.

I've also come to the conclusion that, really, I don't know a lot of what happened, do I? I think OW furnished me with a lot of the details and I still don't know which are true or untrue.

Our marriage has always been about his aspirations, but I have supported him in his decisions. I don't have a career as such, but do work full time and have been, up until this move, lucky with transfers in my job.

I'm really hoping that the book turns up tomorrow, so that we can look at it over the weekend.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 29/10/2010 00:12

Christian I am at a long work event tomorrow again, so I'm hoping you'll see this before you have your chat. I have italicised the questions that remain and would be good for you to think about. I have also added a few more, in preparation for your chat.

You have said that you have timelined that outburst in front of your colleagues as at least a year before the affair started.

I asked you what (apart from the consequences) would have stopped you at that time, from doing something similar to him in front of his work colleagues?

What I am trying to establish is the level of respect you held for eachother at this point in time. This incident could suggest that his respect for you was low at least a year before the affair, whereas if you could not have rebuked him like this, your respect for him and your attachment to him, was still strong.

You have said that your marriage has been characterised by following his aspirations and that his career has necessitated you moving at regular intervals, a situation you have embraced, but this time, found hard. Since this was evidently after he had started to detach from you and given the other catastrophes that had befallen you, I am not surprised that this time was difficult, especially given your own job situation.

You said that you didn't tell your H about your friend's relationship, partly because you didn't talk much at this time and partly because you disapproved and didn't want to look "smug" even to your own H.

When you get the book, you will read about how couples treat a situation whereby their friends and associates engage in infidelity. You will see that couples reinforce their own fidelity to one another, by the friends that they keep.

You still haven't told him everything that she said and did to you. He is still unsighted about how badly you were abused - and believe me, this was emotional abuse. You haven't asked your H what was said about you or your marriage, by the affair partners. You have no clear idea how you were represented and have only their actions at the time, to go on.

This is an area I think you need information about. Your H will doubtless feel uncomfortable about it, but what is said about the betrayed spouse during the affair is indicative of how detached the unfaithful partner is, from the marriage. Also, how he responds to his spouse being demonised or criticised by the affair partner is an interesting revelation, in terms of whether some loyalty still exists.

You are still not sure that things happened as you believed and have been using the information supplied by the OW to fill in most of the gaps.

This woman was abusive and had an unmistakeable agenda to wound and hurt you, especially after the affair was over. Relying on her for the story of the affair was an unwise move, because her words have haunted you ever since. You need to get your husband's full version of events and after he has finished, tell him how bad the abuse was. Tell him what she said and how this has tortured you all this time, to the extent that you are re-living conversations and that words like "smug" are like a running sore.

You realise now that this all started long before the affair and that you need to talk to your H as he holds all the bits of the puzzle.

This is essential. I would suggest you are very clear that you have realised now that rather than you detaching from him for a long time before the affair, it was him detaching from you - and that his detachment propelled him towards an affair, not anything you'd done. That a lot of the behaviour you had been framing as causative, was in fact responsive to his detachment.

Sometimes in these situations (as you will see from the book) it helps to physically draw a timeline. Decide how far you want to go back in time - a time when you can agree you were both happy, intimate and mutually attached might be a good start.

Then chart key moments, like the awful external events, the working away from home, the new job and house move, the renewed friendship with the OW, the different stages of the affair (including the mirroring and pre-affair permission-giving stages) and then finally, the last 2 years.

Some good questions are: how happy was each individual at this point, how connected did you feel, what respect did you hold for your partner at this point?

I think you'll learn a great deal about what each of you were feeling at these points and I think it will bring to life for you, in pictorial fashion, the reversal of the script you had when you started this thread.

I hope your conversations are productive and healing, although they will be painful at times and difficult. But they are so necessary. I also have a feeling that just like last Friday, you will find that your imagination has been far worse than some of the realities and as long as your H has a commitment to be absolutely honest at last (this needs to be a ground rule) you might get some closure about the issues that have haunted you for such a long time.

Do update when you get the chance.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 02/11/2010 22:50

WWIFN, I will be back to answer your post tomorrow. I haven't disappeared :) Just had a very busy weekend, but back to normal tomorrow!

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 03/11/2010 11:39

I asked you what (apart from the consequences) would have stopped you at that time, from doing something similar to him in front of his work colleagues?
I would never do that (to anyone) because for one thing, I hate scenes! But, I wouldn't have done it to DH because I would never want to embarrass him (or myself) like that. You're very right, his respect for me was non-existent even then and I knew that, but didn't know what to do about it.

We did talk, at length, over the weekend. I asked him how aware he was of what she was doing / saying to me and he said he had no idea, because she was telling him different things. I asked him what they discussed about me and he said they didn't really, other than her telling him he had to tell me that they were 'an item' now and that I was history :) I can see now that what was happening to me wouldn't have bothered him really because he was already so detached from me. In his head, he really believed that I didn't love him anyway and wouldn't be bothered that he was having an affair - let alone who with. I think if he had actually stopped and thought about it with his heart, he might've seen things differently. But he didn't want to do that, because he was having too much fun.
I have wondered "Why her?" many times and have now come to the conclusion, (with your help), that he was just 'ready' for the affair, having successfully detached himself completely from me. What got me at the time was that he didn't even bother to look for someone of 'his own', he just seemed to think "She'll do". But, as you have pointed out, the mirroring had been going on for a while anyway. When I asked him why he chose her, he said he didn't think she was gorgeous, but they seemed to get on well and wanted/liked the same things Hmm What a surprise!
I have also come to realise that at least half of what she told me wasn't true anyway and that she's just twisted. She did have an unmistakeable agenda and it was mostly based around getting my life (for what it's worth! Hmm ) for herself. Or, more specifically, she wanted my DH, because he could provide her with the things she wanted and needed, i.e. DC, financial support, access to places she wants to go/be, etc. She's been divorced for about 15 years and has never had another long term partner, so she was a free agent. She could obviously see that our marriage was already in tatters and this led her to see him in a different light, as someone other than just my DH, as she had previously.

I hope your conversations are productive and healing, although they will be painful at times and difficult

I've just asked him what he would've thought, had he known what she was telling me and his answer was that, at the time, he might have found it rather funny.

But this is said in hindsight and I can only hope that, had he been told, he'd have had an attack of guilty conscience........ But probably not. Why does that hurt, even now?

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 03/11/2010 12:12

Thanks for updating Christian.

Regarding your last question, I'd reverse this and ask "How could it not hurt?"

If at the time, he would have found what the OW was saying to you "funny", then that wasn't such a high-risk strategy of hers after all. If she also thought he'd find it funny that you were being gaslighted into believing she was having an affair with the husband of a woman she described as a "saddo", then there was absolutely no penalty perceived by her, for this abuse.

I am quite shocked by that response. Have you pulled your punches here with him, or have you described what she was doing in the way you have with us here? His response is at least brutally honest, but it does show that his empathy for you at that point was completely gone.

How does he interpret her behaviour now? Does he think it was abusive? Has his answer to that question shocked him at all, in that it's made him realise the depths he had plumbed?

I was glad to read that you have realised now that the story the OW gave you was distorted, but how has he replaced that? What story do you believe now?

Did you talk to your H about how you have changed your mind about who detached from whom and why this affair happened?

Has the book arrived and what are your thoughts about timelining your relationship together?

How did your H respond to these discussions over the weekend? How much did you tell him of the difficulties you have been having getting past this and what were his thoughts?

ChristianSalvesen62 · 03/11/2010 15:51

WWIFN, I'm not sure I told him everything she said. Don't think I mentioned the 'saddo woman', just certain bits that stand out in my memory, (like the wanting a baby, lol). I don't remember all of the bits, all of the time, if you see what I mean? They come and go - and other, new bits, float into my head at random times, like when I'm doing something that sparks off a memory. Then I think, I must tell/ask DH about that and then promptly forget, because he's not at home all the time :) Short term memory is a thing of the past!!

I've asked him how he now 'sees' what happened and he says, (in his view), it was her manipulating me, (to get more info than he was providing?), and he thinks she was probably playing a game/proving a point, in that she knew something I didn't. He also said he knows she had an agenda over and above the actual affair, that he couldn't see at the time.

I think she thought that I realised all along that she was talking about DH and that my non-committal, half hearted answers to things she told me were a sign of acceptance. When, in reality, I was being completely thick blissfully, 'smugly' unaware Grin

DH didn't respond well to the discussions, as I knew he wouldn't. Only in as much as he feels uncomfortable and vulnerable when we talk about it. But we didn't fall out and we did get somewhere. I explained that I'm finding it hard to let go of things because I don't understand what went on and he said he knows that but he feels such a shit about it all and like he's not the same person as he was then.

The book only arrived after he had gone again, so am keeping that delight for him for next time!!

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 03/11/2010 15:52

being completely thick

Why didn't that work!!!!

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/11/2010 12:18

Christian I wonder why you keep focusing on the only thing she said that affected him directly - her plans to have a child with him? I have a sense that you feel that this has the most power to move him, because it affects him.

I asked you what was his reaction to his admission that he would have found this stuff "rather funny at the time"? You didn't answer that. Again, I get no sense that he is horrified that he would have once felt like that.

I can't decide whether it is you minimising her behaviour (and his) and the effects this has had on you - and this is producing the reactions you are getting from him, or whether he is still lacking in empathy and sorrow for you now, because his reactions to these discussions are astonishing - to me, at least.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that he didn't respond well to even having a discussion, but that's not the same thing.

I asked you how he had overwritten the story the OW gave you? What gaps has he filled in - you didn't say?

I also asked you whether you had told your H that you have changed your mind about who detached first?

Now you've got the book, what are your thoughts?

Again, what do you think about the exercise of timelining your relationship?

Christian I have some other thoughts that have been bubbling away about a way forward for you as a person, quite distinct from your relationship, but I'll save that for later, if I may.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 04/11/2010 15:07

I only focus on the bit about the baby because I find it the most laughable, to be honest - and the bit that was the most unbelievable. But really, all of what she told me would have affected him, because she was telling me about their plans. They were plans they had (apparently) made together; to move to another country, to go to her works Christmas Ball together, to love each other the way his saddo wife couldn't, etc, etc. So all of the things she told me 'affected' him. But she told me she wanted a baby by this man, before it was too late for her, during the affair. It wasn't until the day after I found out, that she then texted the bit saying he wouldn't need my DCs because they were going to have their own. It doesn't have anything to do with 'power', it has more to do with my slightly warped sense of humour, because I knew just how horrified he'd be and I told her this, in no uncertain terms.

His reaction to what he said yesterday, which I asked him about last night by text, was that, looking back, he really can't believe he was that person, having the affair. But also that you were right in that, at the time, he didn't really think about how I would feel or about what would happen to our marriage when I found out. Which was what I knew anyway. He is constantly horrified at the enormity of what he did, to himself (self destruction) and to me (total destruction).

I may be minimising her behaviour because I had known her for so long and knew what she was like. When I told my oldest friend, (who also knows OW), she said "I'm not surprised - I'm more surprised that you're surprised!" To be honest, I must've had my radar switched off for so long that year that I didn't pick up the signal. I would've expected nothing less from her really. As to the effect it's having on me, until now, I never realised it was emotional abuse, I just put it down to her being mad! I just thought that I have been tormenting myself for two years for some other (unknown) reason. And I probably don't tell DH how much it has affected me because I've always had a major problem with showing vulnerability, to anyone. I guess I've always thought, if people can't see I'm upset, then they can't hurt me, and it's a hard habit to break Hmm

When I say DH didn't respond well to the discussion, I mean he didn't enjoy it, not that he didn't tell me much. He answered every question I put to him, including that he absolutely DID NOT say a couple of (very personal :( ) things about me that she told me he had. He was quite adamant that she had made these bits up and was upset that I had believed for so long that he'd said them. This is why sometimes I think it would have been so much simpler to get over if I hadn't been friends with her and he'd just gone and found some stranger to have the affair with.

I did point out about the 'detaching' process and he agreed that it had started about two years before the affair, (probably around the time of the crash). He does know that he was responsible for the decision to have the affair and that the process had been ongoing for ages.

As to gaps he has filled in so far, we established that, actually, the very first text he sent her, (the joke), was not when he asked me for her number while he was away. It had been going on for a number of weeks before that and he had finished it, then decided to text her again. He asked me for her number because he had deleted her from his phone. He said it was very on/off the whole way through until near the end, when it was out of control. They would go for a couple of weeks texting and then he would feel too guilty and stop. Then he would last a week or so, then text again/ go round to see her. This is why, considering it went on for 4-5 months, he only went round to see her 6-8 times. I asked if he had ever left the house with her and he said only once. They went to our walking place one Saturday, but only after she'd already been down there with me first thing in the morning and I'd told her I was going shopping in the afternoon. This was during the 12 days when he had moved out of the house, but before I found out. I am still incredulous that he could believe himself to be in love with someone he had 'met up' with so few times and had only left the house with once! During this time he also spent the night at hers once. We discussed again what I 'thought' I knew and most of it was pretty accurate.

The book I was sort of waiting to read with him next time he's home, but maybe I should read it now and highlight bits I want to talk about?

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 04/11/2010 15:57

Have just been reading another thread on which Beautiful said to the OP,

'Vanish, Retreat, Regroup'

It wasn't until I did just this, that DH realised what he was about to do. It worked better than anything else I could've tried Grin and I did it thinking I was running away from the inevitable Grin

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/11/2010 16:08

Thank you for that much fuller post Christian.

I will respond in full later, but for now, can you reveal how this actually started then? Was it a phone call, a face-to-face interaction, a text or some other medium, like FB? Who contacted whom first and exactly when was this? (I have a memory for the months in your story, so just say Feb, March or whatever).

What was said by them both in those initial interactions?

ChristianSalvesen62 · 04/11/2010 16:36

The first text was a joke, but not the 'joke' I thought, apparently. This was not him misleading me, it was me mixing up dates and the texts. the original joke text was sent by him, when I was with him, which I now remember. That was mid May. Then about mid June, he asked me for her number, on the pretence of sending her another joke. But, in fact, he was just wanting to re-engage with her.

The first text was purely a joke and I do remember being there when he sent it. It wasn't even a dirty joke!

OP posts:
MrsOliverCarminowe · 04/11/2010 17:36

CS - your situation is so similar to mine! In my case it was an acquaintance rather than a friend, but the lead up was very similar. It is now nearly a year after mine, (am regualr poster, posted that under a differnt name for the usual reason) and it is getting easier, although I still have relapses of moments of grief, the hurt is fading. Like yours, our relationship is no better than ever before - but I know I won't ever fully trust him again, but that becomes less relevant as I become stronger - he can see me being stronger, and knows I would not accept another affair - if it happened again after all the talking, etc it would be the end, so the situation is as good as it can be, and I just cherish the fac the fact that we were able to work it thtough, discuss it and agree how each of us would make each other our priority.
( Mumsnet, and WWIFN saved my sanity then)

MrsOliverCarminowe · 04/11/2010 17:37

sorry now better, not 'no better!!!!!'

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 05/11/2010 10:39

Thanks Christian. And waves to Oliver whoever you may be - glad you are okay.

What I was saying about "power" was that I wondered whether you focused on the baby issue and not some of the insults directed at you personally, because you thought that your H would have been more moved and horrified by things that related directly to him. Thanks for explaining that it is part humour and part memory-loss, but I still think it's interesting that when you're talking to him, you don't recall the slurs she made about you and you alone. The words that have haunted you, such as "saddo" and "smug". I noted what you said about your reluctance to show vulnerability, even to him. I think that's a momentous admission; more about that later.

I'm enormously pleased that he has been able to set your mind to rest about some other things, she alleged he said about you. What a wasted opportunity it has been, that you have been carrying this around with you for 2 years.

I'm glad that your H has told you that he cannot believe he was the sort of person to have found this "rather funny", but it concerns me that you had to put him on the spot about that, by text, long after the conversation had finished. However, he has at least been able to endorse just how little his empathy was for you, at that point.

It's fascinating that you learned so much more about the affair itself at the weekend. Really basic, factual details seem to have only come out, since you started this thread. You now know when this actually started, that it was him "testing the water" with her that took this from the mirroring stage to the next level and that your H was far more ambivalent about the affair, than you had thought.

FWIW, it doesn't surprise me at all that this relationship was focused on her home, that their assignations were so infrequent and that they didn't have penetrative sex. Or that they didn't pursue other activities, such as meals out and cinema trips. And this is not about the risk of being discovered, either, or not entirely.

In relationships like this, there is a huge fantasy element to them, that wouldn't survive in the "real world" or outside the bubble of the affair. I doubt they had many conversations about current affairs, or politics, their core beliefs and values, or indeed, any of the conversations real couples have with eachother when they are first dating.

It is also hugely significant, amidst all the gloom of what you have believed, that your H still had some conflicted loyalties to you and tried to end the relationship on a few occasions. Also, that he wouldn't engage in penetrative sex, because if he did something that as a couple, you no longer practised, it would feel like the ultimate disloyalty and a sign that your marriage was really over. That means that he didn't really want it to be over, however much he had tried to destroy it in the preceding years.

You have been critical of his apparent inability to "find his own" affair partner and find it strange that she wasn't someone he'd lusted after from afar for years. His attraction requirements as described were quite basic, weren't they? Your conclusion that this was an internal dialogue of "she'll do" is possibly right, but I think there are other reasons for that, which you might not have considered.

I suspect this was a classic "test the water" affair, with someone who was fundamentally unsuitable and with whom he was unlikely to form a lasting relationship. Choosing a kinder woman, with whom he had a proper friendship and a meeting of minds, would have been a far riskier enterprise for your H.

I expect he didn't actually want to fall in love with your friend at the outset, at all. For many people who have detached from their primary relationship, and/or are suffering from depression, going from such a low to the high of an intoxicating affair, has the effect of a bomb detonating. Anyone they choose to have an affair with, will have this effect and it is terribly easy and understandable, to mistake that chemical high for real love and real feelings.

Onlookers to this are amazed that the affair partner is so unsuitable, but sometimes this is a subconscious choice right at the beginning. A more suitable person would have been more threatening and at some level, he wouldn't have wanted that. Other MNetters might nod at this point, because we have evidence on these boards about women and men having affairs with absolutely ghastly human beings and it makes no sense, but whenever we do something that seems aberrant as human beings, there is always a reason.

This is why after the affair is over, and the chemical reaction has evaporated, people scratch their heads in bewilderment that they were ever "that person", or that they ever thought the OW/OM was a realistic alternative. This is why "exit affairs" rarely last the course, because even if they were the passport out of a bad relationship, the affair served its purpose but had no deeper meaning. It was what it was; the real alternative relationship comes later.

Had your H had some solo counselling with a really good practitioner, this might have come out much sooner, as well as his detachment from you; when that really happened and why. The latter question is, for me, unresolved.

Why does he think he did start to detach?

Don't speculate about this yourself, Christian - I expect we could both have a good guess given the events that preceded it, please ask him. And give him some time to ruminate on that, perhaps in one of your catch-up phone calls while he is away. Then talk about it properly when he is next home.

Do please read that book straight away. Don't wait to read it together. I can virtually guarantee that you will find it a page-turner and will finish it quickly once you've started it. Combined with this thread, various light bulbs will come on and you will be in much better shape for your next face-to-face discussions with your H. If he can afford it though, I would hope that he would buy his own copy while he is away - and read it before he returns home again. Have you suggested this?

I think at this juncture on your thread, it would be helpful to recap about how far you have come.

You started off this thread thinking that you had detached from your H first and that this had caused his detachment from you. That you had some responsibility for the affair. You lacked basic facts about the affair, such as when this really started and when it moved from the mirroring stage to the pre-affair permission-giving phase. You didn't know how many times they had met and where all the assignations were. You believed your friend was "just mad" - and not abusive. You believed her story of the affair and that your H had told her some things that were so hurtful that you can't write them down here (and I wouldn't want you to).

Whereas now, you have timelined events with greater accuracy and realised that your H detached from you first and that your behaviour was in response to that. Your H confirms that this was indeed the case. You realise that your H was solely responsible for his infidelity - and he confirms that.

You realise that the affair process started long, long before that May, at the mirroring stage on the walks. You now know that your H still had some loyalty to you and was conflicted at times, but that his empathy for your feelings was very low at other points. However, he was still not capable of saying those horrible personal things, that have haunted you all this time.

You recognise that your friend was emotionally abusive and this view of her appears to be echoed by another friend, whose antennae about her malevolence seems to be sharper, than yours once was.

I said I'd come back to some stuff about you because I'd be interested in what you think you have learned about yourself in this process.

Some questions that come to mind are:

Why do you think you have been struggling with a lack of information and insights about this, for 2 years?

Why do you think you took responsibility for things that were not your fault and in fairness to your H, were not even attributed to you?

Why do you think your antennae about your friend and her values was as it was?

What are your boundaries now, in terms of what treatment you will accept from others?

How can your marriage support your aspirations in life now? What can you do that will bring you personal pleasure and fulfilment?

I am hoping that you will have other realisations - and other thoughts.

What I'd suggest you do now, is to print off this thread and especially this very long post - and highlight what you need to explore more, about the affair, your marriage and you personally. Get a highlighter pen and emphasise the questions posed. Jot down your thoughts in the margins. It's a lot to digest and I think in your shoes, I would find that helpful as an exercise in itself.

ChristianSalvesen62 · 06/11/2010 00:01

Thanks for posting Oliver To be honest, I thought there was only WWIFN and I reading this thread! I'd almost forgotten it was on a forum Grin My DH also knows just how much of a second & last chance he's on.

I hope you get to the bottom of everything before I have. I feel a bit like I've spent the last two years in an obsession fuelled limbo!

WWIFN, will ask DH the question in bold. I'm going to look up 'test the water' affair in a minute as well, because I thought an affair was an affair. I didn't realise there were different types.

DH isn't due home for another week now and I'll have read the book by then I expect. I'll get another copy for him.

Have a lovely weekend :)

OP posts:
ChristianSalvesen62 · 08/11/2010 22:23

Okay, can someone please tell me what a 'test the water' affair is? I can't find anything about this! :)

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 08/11/2010 23:12

I'll get some links for you Christian and post them on here. Meanwhile, any other thoughts in response to my post last week?