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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

If you like to make a big deal of how happy your marriage is, does it not worry you that a lot of women are suffering within marriage?

181 replies

SolidGoldBrass · 26/09/2010 16:04

Two women a week are murdered by partners or ex-partners and one in four women will experience domestic violence at some point in their lives.
If you yourself are in a wonderful marriage and like to talk about it and recommend the institution to other women, do you think you might have some responsibility towards those who naively think that love&marriage will solve all their problems and thereby end up in awful abusive relationships?

Yes this is a folow on from the sex work thread, I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

OP posts:
Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 09:45

oops made a mistake it should read for MEN it is the thought of sex...

dizietsma · 27/09/2010 09:55

MH that is a very jaded view, and perhaps biased by your personal history?

I really don't think that a poll of Daily Mail and Psychologies readers is what I'd call a reliable data set.

Gretl · 27/09/2010 10:01

I don't recognise the view of marriage being debated here.
(If debated is the right word.)
It worries me that the notion of self-respect seems to have been eroded to the point where the I can see women marrying complete fuckheads for some reason, and I can see both men and women being complete fuckheads and not really being able to see that.

I blame daytime tv for making fuckheadery mainstream. You do what you see.

MorrisZapp · 27/09/2010 10:05

I've heard it all now. 'You've taken that too far' SGB, as they say on Chewing the Fat.

I'm always a bit confused when I hear talk of sex being the reason for/ major factor in marriage. It might have been in the past, but the vast majority of today's couples will already have had the best of their sex lives together before they marry.

If I married DP now, which I'd quite like to do, I'd be doing so with sex as something like number 20 on our list of relationship priorities.

I've always felt that 'banging on' about how great your relationship is is a bit rude, and a bit like saying 'don't you wish you had lots of money like me', however if somebody asked me, I'd tell them the truth, that although not perfect, I love being in LTR with DP.

Can't say this has ever made me feel any reponsibility to those who then get abused - I tend to blame abusers for that one - but it's as good a bit of shit stirring as any I suppose to get us all up in arms.

booyhoo · 27/09/2010 10:05

only read the OP.

i don't think you have a responsibility to other women. marriage in the UK is only available to adults. presumably this implies that the law considers adults capable of entering into a marriage knowing what they are doing.

someone who is happy in a marriage has a right to talk about it without having to censor what they say so that they don't encourage others to follow in their footsteps.

some marriages are abusive and should never have been made in the first place. that is not the responsibility of those who are happily married. you can't sue them for false advertising.

Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 10:11

Diet ma,

you have every right to be dubious about polls even from such reputable publications as I state, that is your right, they to me are valid reliable publications!

As for my experience I do believe with perspective and looking back at times on a subconcious level that I withheald sex from my exh, I have a lot of selfknowledge I realise a lot of people have no interest in obtaining and that is ok if they are not in a place where they want to go there...

As for conciously withholding sex, not something I have dnoe, I have heard people discuss they have done it, so I assume it is something more than a couple of women do, forgive me if I have had dealings with odd people and they are the only one's who have done such a thing!

That is my view on things, and I am entitled to it, if you disagree that is your right!

wubblybubbly · 27/09/2010 10:26

I was in an abusive relationship in my youth. We weren't married, we didn't even live together. I worked and a significant proportion of my income was spent on him. Sex was frequently coerced, as is common in abusive relationships.

I came to my senses and got out.

I'm now married, a SAHM and sex is almost always initiated by me. The reason for that is because I've been ill and my decent husband understands that my feelings are more important than any need he has for sex. He has a wank if needed.

Marriage has bugger all to do with abuse and prostitution. Even the stats quoted in the OP refer to partners, not spouses.

dizietsma · 27/09/2010 11:00

Yes, but MH you are basically proving my point. You (IIRC) were in an abusive relationship, and I said upthread that marriages where sex is used as currency/is traded are abusive. QED.

Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 11:10

not sure what iirc is? ok see your point re sex trade is an abusive relationship

dizietsma · 27/09/2010 11:12

If I Remember Correctly.

Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 11:23

I just had a thought, I dislocated my hip a few weeks before my ex left suddenly (after pain from having sex with endometrosis for years), I have always wondered if that was a part of him leaving...

Niecie · 27/09/2010 11:37

SBG - it seems to me you have a very low opinion of women.

AnyFucker · 27/09/2010 11:59

sgb has a very low opinion of women in monogamous relationships

Niecie · 27/09/2010 12:14

Not just women in monogamous relationships - what about those poor little women who get 'coerced' into a relationship just because somebody else enjoys being married? Clearly they are too stupid to stay single and have to find somebody else to blame.

Can polygamous women not get coerced into sex then? Can one of their relationships not be abusive? Do women who have more than one relationship not get murdered by their partners? Do sex workers not get murdered by their partners?

This is such an annoying OP - riddled with flawed logic.

Niecie · 27/09/2010 12:14

Should have liberally peppered that with Hmm

Malificence · 27/09/2010 12:18

AF, it seems you have a hotdog stalking you, I think he has a little crush.Grin

If Amanda the sex worker says she's happy in her life and work then fine, I can accept that.

I would be hugely insulted should anyone compare her marriage to mine though.

There are a hundred reasons why a good marriage is nothing like prostitution, would a punter look after you when you are ill or jointly raise your children, for example?
As we've seen all too often on here, some marriages contain no sex anyway.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 27/09/2010 12:27

SGB I'm going to try to answer the exact questions you are posing.

You ask: "If you yourself are in a wonderful marriage and like to talk about it and recommend the institution to other women, do you think you might have some responsibility towards those who naively think that love&marriage will solve all their problems and thereby end up in awful abusive relationships?"

Well first of all, I think ours is a wonderful marriage, but I cannot think of a single occasion when I have recommended the institution to anyone. That would be incredibly presumptious of me. I can't for the life of me see how anyone would conclude that because our marriage is good, marriage itself must be good, because within every marriage or relationship, there will be two individuals who will be very different to my H and I - and therefore each relationship will be different.

You personally have stated that you know of lots of happy monogamous relationships, but it didn't lead you to conclude that monogamy was best for you personally. In the same way, reading your account of polyamorous relationships doesn't lead me to think that just because you're happy, polyamory would suit me. But then, neither of us were ever naive enough to think that one lifestyle would solve all our problems.

As for our responsibility towards those who are naive enough to think that marriage will solve all their problems, I'm presuming you mean our responsibility to people who are known to us, since offering an opinion on this to strangers would be rather odd, unless you are a writer, speech maker or someone in a role-model position who is regularly quoted in the press.

With people I know, I can think of numerous occasions when I have tried to deter people (male and female) from having a relationship/marrying/staying in a relationship with total dickhead, but these warnings have been about the individuals they have become entangled with. I can also remember advising someone very close to me to think hard about marrying, because I thought that this person lacked the commitment herself and was marrying because of her age and her desire to have children, rather than love for her partner. My warnings have therefore been about the individuals and not the concept of being married.

With our teenage DCs, we are at pains to discuss the many ways of living their lives, and that marriage is just one of those options.

Bringing other aspects of this thread into the equation, particularly that oft quoted survey about married women being among the unhappiest in society, as ever, I think it makes sense to go behind the statistics and question them. I wonder whether the majority of those unhappy women are in marriages that more closely represent the "legalised prostitution" mentioned by Grace? The sort of marriage where sex is bartered for financial security/keeping the peace, where child-care is perceived to be less valuable than paid work and where domestic chores are seen to be women's responsibility?

And whether this is why none of that resonates with women like AF and I, who have built egalitarian relationships with men who want nothing less?

In summary then, I don't think that marriage itself causes misery, just marriages between unsuitable/unsuited people.

However, you say that this question arose from the sex worker thread. The main arguments on that thread seem to be that sex workers should/shouldn't feel responsibility for collateral hurt caused by their work, either to deceived partners or to workers who are forced to engage in this labour.

So, if a happily married person feels no responsibility to society at large to point out that marriages bring unhappiness to many, why should happy sex workers feel responsible for their work, when it brings unhappiness to so many?

Having established that I don't think that marriage itself brings misery to people, what about sex work?

Yes, I do think the concept of selling sex for money brings misery to people. I have a political objection to anyone feeling entitled to pay for the use of another's body. Since the majority of prostitutes are women and the majority of pimps and punters are men, I object to the notion that it is acceptable to objectify women for sex.

My argument is that this industry always brings misery to someone - women in general, if male users think it?s acceptable to reduce women to the sum of their bodies or to classify women into saint/sinner groups, the majority of the workers, or the women who have the misfortune to be married to a man who secretly uses prostitutes. I can?t think of a single woman who benefits from prostitution. Even the high-earning ?choice? sex workers on that thread suffer in ways that perhaps they won?t acknowledge, because they live in a society that tolerates women being objectified and places less value on a woman?s brain than her sexuality. As long as people think it?s okay to do this and buy women for sex and not their brainpower, that sexism will exist.

If we accept that the women involved in this trade by choice and/or are paid well are in the minority, the trade itself does enormous physical and mental harm to the majority of those on the "shop floor". If it were a regulated industry that was liable to a Health and Safety Inspection, the majority of the workplaces would be closed down overnight because of the harm to the workers and there would be an equal pay challenge between the sex workers (female) and the pimps (male) All that would be left therefore would be regulated brothels and high-end "escort work" where no pimps were involved.

As we saw on that thread, even the well-paid "choice" sex workers, concede that if their clients' partners knew about these transactions, it would bring misery.

So it depends on your beliefs, doesn?t it? I disagree that marriage as a construct causes unhappiness to women, but that their choice of partner and choice of role within it can cause huge misery. I agree that prostitution does causes misery to women and therefore those within it have a responsibility to stop it and deter other women from selling their bodies for money.

Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 12:38

Thanks for your post whenwillifeelnormal, it has made a lot more sense of this thread for me!

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, that if you have a mismatched marriage/abusive marriage then the dynamics can work as you describe, I like the example of the lack of respect for childrearing/household chores as opposed to paid work, sadly i think many man and women have that attitude in the UK!

How lucky you and others are to have an equal happy marriage! good for you, and actually thanks for explaining why it is as it is as it gives hope to me for one for the future!

Trilobiteontoast · 27/09/2010 12:48

Really, it would be slightly less offensive from one side of this debate at least if women who are being pro-marriage would stop banging on about the 'choice of partner' or 'bad choices' for women who end up in bad relationships. I don't know about you, but I've never had a queue of men from which to take my pick. I have the choice of relationship or not-relationship, sure, and increasingly choose the latter, but I have nevereverever had a choice of who I wanted to have a relationship with- there has always been an array of one or fewer to 'choose' from. So essentially you're vaunting your privilege by claiming this is in any way about choice.

WRT the op, I just don't know. I do think people have some responsibility for others' happiness, and I think life is made harder (financially, emotionally, practically) for single women, especially single women with children (and the misinformed who think they'd be 'financially better off' single are deluded- do you even realise that this doubles your household costs ffs? Unless you mean splitting up but living in the same house, which fair enough if you have a five bedroom mansion or something). And that is because everything caters to married/coupled people and everyone assumes you have that support around. I don't think that married women are responsible for other women being physically abused by partners though, but I guess this was rhetoric rather than a real belief.

Mummiehunnie · 27/09/2010 12:53

Trilobite you have the choice as you say to be with someone or not, to choose someone who turns out to be abusive was therefore a choice, as was the choice to stay, even if you did not realise that you were making choices at the time!

Niecie · 27/09/2010 13:02

Trilobite - nobody is suggesting anybody has a queue of men to chose from and that those who end up in bad relationships chose a bad man over a good one. I would have thought most of us, married or unmarried, pro or anti marriage only ever had a choice between being in a relationship with one person at a time or nobody at all.

We all have a choice - I don't get your argument at all or at least why a woman chosing to be married is in any way a problem for you.

SanctiMoanyArse · 27/09/2010 13:13

Blimey, I ming to an extreme but i've had choices for sure! If epopel didn;t how would affair and adultery rates be so high?

' to choose someone who turns out to be abusive was therefore a choice'

No, at elast not an informed choice. You always choose the person youthink youa re getting not what they might turn into. The crucial thing is what you do after they become abusive, not what choices someone has made up until then. The abuse changes the game.

And it's not just abuse. Women (nad men) need to learn to value their happiness not just their safety.

Pixie83 · 27/09/2010 13:32

I am very happy in my marriage. DH and I have been together for more than ten years, and if asked, I would say that I am very happy and rattle on about it until whoever asked starts yawning.

I don't believe, though, that I am responsible for any other adult's naivety on any subject, and, more importantly, I think it is rather naive in itself to assume that women suffering domestic violence were 'naive' when they entered their abusive relationships in the first place (which probably were not abusive at the beginning).

I think with your attitude you are doing nothing more than perpetuating the stereotype of a woman in an abusive relationship as being uneducated, flawed or different in some way, which is simply not the case and does nothing for the plight of the thousands of women suffering in silence.

snowmama · 27/09/2010 13:39

Thank you WWIFN for a great response. It does articulate very clearly the power and strength a good marriage can have and bring to all concerned.

Just pulling up on this point:

"So, if a happily married person feels no responsibility to society at large to point out that marriages bring unhappiness to many, why should happy sex workers feel responsible for their work, when it brings unhappiness to so many?
"

What has struck me on this thread was the amount of times people have in effect said ' I feel no repponsibility for anyone unlucky/lacking in self esteem/stupid enough to be choose a bad husband', which struck me as extremely lacking in sisterhood.

When compared to the sex worker thread - wasn't the question there and often about the OW in general - 'how could she do this/why does she have no concept of sisterhood' etc.. doesn't that concept work both ways ? WWIFN, your post, demonstrates a very strong sense of sisterhood by the way.

But to others (not necessarily anyone who has responded to this thread specifically) who exclude/patronise or generally feel better than other women with no or failed marriages (I have come accross in this RL often) - then actually possibly you are making other women feel they should be married - to any man good or bad. Which is oppressive.

If marriage works for you great. If it doesn't, that should be considered great too. I am not sure that is true of our society today.

BarmyArmy · 27/09/2010 13:39

SGB - FWIW, women in marriages are less likely to be abused than those in other relationships.

Children are less likely to suffer at the hands of their own parents than at the hands of step-parents.