If you like to make a big deal of how happy your marriage is, does it not worry you that a lot of women are suffering within marriage?

[SolidGoldBrass]

Two women a week are murdered by partners or ex-partners and one in four women will experience domestic violence at some point in their lives.
If you yourself are in a wonderful marriage and like to talk about it and recommend the institution to other women, do you think you might have some responsibility towards those who naively think that love&marriage will solve all their problems and thereby end up in awful abusive relationships?

Yes this is a folow on from the sex work thread, I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

"Legalised prostitution" is a time-honoured expression. It's supposed to be controversial. It refers to very traditional views of marriage, namely that a man sees marriage as his guarantee of regular sex and a woman sees it as her guarantee of financial security.

Whether or not you subscribe to this view - and whether you believe your husband does - if you claim not to understand the expression, then I accuse you of hypocrisy. This is the marriage contract, as understood by millions of married people the world over - and predominantly in these forums.

To clarify the positions: Sex for money in one transaction = prostitution; Sex for money over a lifetime = marriage. If a prostitute should feel responsible for the un/happiness of other married women, then so should a wife. More so, in fact, given the wife's greater commitment to the transaction.

I can (pretty much) have sex whenever I like

what does that make my husband?

bearing in mind we both contribute equally to the financial pot

are we both buyers of sex ?

we are both worth it, btw

Wow. Really worry about all you people talking about how getting married means there's a transaction of sex for money. Certainly historically that may have been the case and in certain parts of the world it still is, but if that is your modern day developed nation paradigm of marriage then you are one fucked up bunny.

Firstly, my DH doesn't have any bloody money, secondly we share all resources equally, thirdly we have sex whenever we mutually desire to do so and never in exchange for any kind of currency. That's because I'm not a fecking prostitute. The fact that we went to a registry office 9 years ago (to the day, actually) and signed a piece of paper has no bearing on my obligations to have sex with him, and he would be as revolted by the suggestion as I am.

We have sex.

We are married.

Just because these two facts coexist does not mean that there has to be some kind of trade involved and I think it's a fascinatingly capitalist assumption to assert that is the case.

Is all sex a commodity then? Is that how we view things now?

dizi...happy anniversary !

< you bought woman >

Thanks AF

The key word you used was naively SGB. Any woman so naive as to believe love (am thinking you refer to romantic love) and marriage will answer all her problems was always going to be disappointed. Whether by an abuser or just a real man with clay feet.

A person is never the answer to your problems. That comes from within.

I am happily married, don't preach but friends and aquaintences know how happy we are. I would still never actually prod anyone to marry, that also has to be a decision for the couple, and the individual.

I feel no guilt whatsoever for women who end up in such abusive relationships. If you want to dig deeper than the abuser, perhaps look at the childhood that created a woman so vulnerable to abuse.

we are both worth it, btw

I am struggling to care any less about good you think you are at sex and why you feel the need to tell people about it.

"If you want to dig deeper than the abuser, perhaps look at the childhood that created a woman so vulnerable to abuse."

THIS is the thread that you see come up over and over again in the abuse threads here. Marriage isn't the problem, half the time they're not even married, but growing up in an abusive family is a real risk factor for being in an abusive relationship. Wanna blame someone for abusive relationships? Blame abusive parents.

footlong, I think you are confusing me with some one else

someone who gives a shit what you think

although you seem to care a lot about what I think

I'm not saying it's my position but am saying it's disingenuous to claim you don't realise the mainstream view of marriage does, still, boil down to 'legaised prostitution'. It's hardly unusual, even in this comparatively feminist forum, to read a thread where a woman, unhappily married, says she can't leave because she can't renounce the lifestyle her husband provides.

Dizie - "it's a fascinatingly capitalist assumption to assert that is the case". Indeed. We live in a fascinatingly capitalist world, no?

No, I disagree that marriage in the "mainstream" boils down to "legalised prostitution". At least, not the majority of married people in this country. I think it belies a very low opinion of others to think that.

Just because someone is worried that divorce will force them to live on less income doesn't mean they're a prostitute. It's a valid concern, isn't it? I see those individuals as needing reassurance that it isn't so bad living on less, not to tell them that they're prostitutes FGS!

What I meant with the capitalist assumption point is that it seems to me that you cannot conceptualize a sexual relationship without trade. We live in a capitalist society yes, but have you internalized that world so much that you cannot conceive of mutually and freely occurring sex?

dizi...I totally agree with you

I am a feminist, who happens to be married

many are, and they don't feel they are legalised prostitutes

Quite AF.

I am also a feminist who happens to be married, as is my husband. Neither of us feel we a selling sex simply because we are married. Both of us find it an insulting assumption.

I'm afraid I disagree with the so called mainstream view too. Very sweeping.

Many couples contribute equally in a marriage and who says it's the man that provides for the woman's lifestyle? So basically you are saying that many people see marriage as, the man benefitting because of guaranteed sex and the woman a lifetime of financial security? A very derogotary way of viewing married couples.

Oh sex occurs freely and happily very often. But many married women are economically dependent on their husbands (the SAHM with no income of her own) and are you sure that women in marriages like this only ever have sex that they want, rather than having sex because H expects it, or because it's easier than having a row whereupon he will say how hard he works to bring in the money, or even just because letting him have sex will mean he puts the bins out without moaning about it, or agrees that he will look after the DC tomorrow night so she can go and see a friend...
Those of you who are happy in your marriages and don't feel exploited or hard done by, great. I believe you. Do you believe the sex orkers who say that they themselves are not exploited or abused?

I am finding it difficult to compare my marriage with the life of a sex worker

Am not trying to be obtuse, it just ain't computing

You cannot tar all marriages with the same brush.
Yes, there are crap marriages where one spouse abuses the other but there are also healthy marriages where love, trust and respect thrives. Are you sure that some women only ever have sex because they want to avoid it? Are you implying that some married women view sex as something to be endured rather than enjoyed?

I am a recent SAHM and my marriage has improved not suffered as a result and yes, I do get to have sex when we both feel like it. I only wish I was organised enough to have it more often.

I don't see the logical continuation of happy sex worker to happily married, SGB. There is no trade involved in the sex in my marriage, there is trade involved with sex workers, so what exactly is the similarity?

Women who are economically dependent on their husbands who have sex when they don't want to are called marital rape victims, abuse victims IMO. They may not see it that way, but that's how I see it.

SGB, this really feels like your poly-amorous axe grinding and hang ups more than anything.

And very inaccurate too. Such a viewpoint of marriage / heterosexual relationship, is re-enforcing the outdated and offensive ideas that men are objectified as 'attractive' to women only if they can materially provide; and that women's primary allure is there willingness to let men fuck them in exchange for this.

This is offensive to all concerned.

To answer your last question SGB about sex workers not being exploited, I'm afraid I only have information from reading the news, magazines etc. There is the so called "high class escorts" where the women feel that they are in control, I would think that they rather enjoy their lifestyle.

On the other end of the scale are trafficked sex slaves who are forced into it. I would have trouble believing them if they said that they didn't feel abused, brainwashed exploited etc.

Are you serious?! You don't have to be a SAHM to have sex just to keep your husband happy. What has employment status got to do with it? If one partner wants to manipulate the other into having sex, they will find a way. Even as far as day to day bartering or compromising goes, I am sure WOHM as well as SAHM let their husbands have sex just so he will leave them alone to get some sleep or so he will put the bins out without complaining! FWIW as a SAHM I can honestly say I have never had sex with DH just because he somehow 'deserves' it for earning the money. Not once - the thought just doesn't occur to me.

And also FWIW, I am not of the opinion that a prostitute was being exploited or abused if she choses, without duress to provide a service. She provides something that a man wants so much that he is prepared to pay for it. I don't call that being exploited. Obviously that isn't always the case but I was just answering the scenario as you present it.

I too totally disagree that the outdated offensive idea of marriage as 'legalised prostitution' is 'mainstream'.

And how patronising to suggest that if we disagree with it, we're somehow being disingenuous or hypocritical. Yes, I understand the concept, just totally disagree with it.

I disagree that a couple 'have' to be married, for exploitation to take place, or the woman 'needs' to be a SAHM to be manipulated. Rubbish. It can happen in any dysfunctional relationship. Also, you could equally well argue that many men are manipulated by the power that women can wield in marriage, because if the relationship breaks down, he often runs a greater risk of losing main residence with his children, and may even have barriers put in the way of seeing his own children. So it's utter rubbish to suggest that marriage in the 21st century Western world is all about the man weilding financial and sexual power over the woman.

I think the whole premise of this thread is flawed, but rather than admit that it's a poor argument, there are some increasingly outlandish attempts to justify it going on here!

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if this has already been said, but the original point just stinks of sour grapes to me.

OH and I have been married, quite happily, for 29 years. I don't shove this down people's throats, but tell them if asked.

Other people's relationships are their business, not mine. I don't feel guilty that I have been lucky/had good enough judgement to marry the right man. I much prefer boring than be in an abusive relationship.

Grace you are making such sense, read any poll, be it daily mail, womens mag, psychology mag etc, the top reason for women to marry is financial stability, and for me it is the thought of regular sex... think to relationships lasting, reasons, trust, comminication and sex...

What you seem to be saying to me is that there is lower concious contract between men and women, if you give me sex, I will provide....

I suppose that many mm use lack of enough sex for their needs as a reason to cheat.. not that i agree with them cheating etc.. Often sex is used in relationships as a weapon, I have not conciously done that, perhaps on a deeper level women do use sex, and I am sure some men do also... I wonder if a lot of women go out of their way to withhold sex to get what they want from their husband?