Calling all prostitutes and former prostitutes on MN, as there seem to be a few around right now...

[Aitch]

I'm curious to know how it makes you feel to see threads on here from wives and girlfriends etc when they discover that their husbands etc have been visiting prostitutes? even if you are happy in your own jobs (and i hope to god you are somehow, because the alternative is intolerable), how does it feel to be confronted with the downside of your work on these pages?

(i think it goes without saying that the men are culpable in this scenario, but am looking for some insight into how your work squares with sisterhood etc).

aitch, I am sorry your thread got derailed, but you know they always do, dontcha ?

So!

Julia Roberts' character in Pretty Woman: Prostitute or high class escort?

Now that amanda inverness has taken her insightful wisdom away to be with her customers, and skidoodly has gone to bed, it all feels a bit lonely.

I am going to eat a Breakaway then go to bed.

I am so bloody happy to be here and with my boy though!

oh gosh yes. i'm only glad that for a brief while is was actually ON the rails, it looked like the OP was being roundly ignored for the longest time.

night all.

Goodnight OP aitch

'Why on earth would I want to be associated with a girl in a lycra mini dress, holding up a lamppost on a street corner? '

God what derision.

Every woman for herself.

SGB wrote: "Unfortunately some people have this very deep conviction that there's such a thing as 'too much' sex and that it's vital to restrict other people's access to it, because if people with high libidos actualy find a way to get as much sex as they want, with other consenting adults rather than being made to 'control themselves' or 'be patient' for endless dates then.. er... bwaah! Maybe the sky would fall in"

But now that we live in an age where sex is literally everywhere, all the time, for everyone ( whereas in the past only men of a certain class could have sex whenever they wanted, i.e rich men who could buy women of a lower class) I don'T think this point is relevant.

What is relevant today is if you're presented with a sweet shop, should you take all the sweets, just because they're there? (sorry, poor analogy, I know). It seems to me that people who decide not to have sex are in the minority. You seem to be saying people's sex drives must be fulfilled at the cost of all else

I think that's a teenager mentality. If your desire for sex trumps all else, then fine. But you can'T go around thinking that your behaviour has no consequences for other people: for society, for the person you're in a relationship with, for the person you're buying... Sex-at-any-cost doesn't seem to represent an evolved society to me. Have as much sex as you like, but why not do it with integrity?

And when it's all boiled down, a man goes to a prostitute, or an escort if you will, for sex, not therapy (and therapy costs less if it's an escort he's cnosidering anyway).

The cognitive dissonance thread springs to mind. The 'quote' from the Asian sex worker is too funny for words; with a command of English like that, she is an an Asian sex worker?

mathanxiety - I can assure you that many sex workers here in Thailand speak excellent English, don't make the mistake of assuming they are all uneducated.

Apart from that, I have nothing whatsoever to add to this thread.

Sorry for running away last night. I was tired and not really up to it. And it is hard to post about these things, it?s not something I do easily or blithely. And I appreciate that it is an issue which provokes strong and opposing views, so I should have been ready for it.

I continue to post partly because I value the wisdom of people on here; partly so I can speak about things that I otherwise have to keep bottled up inside and partly because I think there may be people in a similar situation who lurk on these threads; too frightened to post, who may be helped by seeing me lurch about trying to keep my head above water and understand what happened.

I don?t condone what my husband did. I hate it ? not just because of what he did to me and my family, but also because I know that the ?high end?, Belle de Jour end of this market that he was buying, is the thin end of a much darker wedge.

I have not forgiven him and I never will.

I didn?t actually say in my post that my husband didn?t care whether or not the girls he saw were seeing him against their will. I asked him if he had ever suspected any of the women he saw to have been unhappy or forced into it, and he said he had never had any such suspicions. I know that his moral code has been skewed, but I do not believe that he would sleep with anyone if he thought it was against their will. I consider him to be guilty of all sorts of things, but he is not a rapist.

He is horrified by what he has done; repentant and guilty. But he does say he has stopped doing this and I do believe that people have the capacity to change.

MrsJellicle I do not blame you for walking away from it last night, a certain person (cannot remember the name) said some really disgusting things that were way out of order.
Of course your husband is not a rapist.
The person who posted those comments sounds bitter and twisted.
I wish you luck.

MrsJ: no need to apologise, but for what it's worth I'm terribly sorry for what you've been through and your husband sounds pretty hideous, but actually the view he has is a bit like Manda's. Even if he never shagged a woman who was traifficked or forced and just because Manda made a choice to go into prostitution and has a better class of customers does not excuse their participation in a wider industry and a wider idea about women which is profoundly degrading. I think Manda was pretty brave to be here, but some of the things she said were just , especially about leaving the women in Thailand to be get with being abused to get on with it, and her clealry looking down on street workers. It's all so very sad and all so very nice for the disgusting men who not only have access to prostitutes, but get to 'choose' between different types, some of which are paid enough to claim they enjoy it!

I'm going to stick up for Manda here and say that it's perfectly logical that she doesn't know much or spend much time contemplating the sex laws in Thailand. I don't either. I know abuse and coercion happens over there, especially of younger girls (as it does in the UK). That however has little to do with our daily lives and work.

It's like saying to an architect, OK you're building a house for a very rich person, don't you care that there's someone with no home sleeping rough just round the corner?

You can care about an issue and empathise with the people involved without actually knowing or being able to do anything about it.

Seondly re. Manda (and myself), there is a vast world of difference between the lives of WGs who are escorts and WGs who are streetwalkers. Manda and I are not streetwalkers, not because we're 'snobs' but because we have the resources and abilities to market ourselves differently, ie as escorts. A woman who takes to the street is usually compelled to do so either by debt (= financial pressure), drug dependency (= financial pressure), or because she is being coerced (= financial pressure). For the record I entered this trade due to financial pressure too, although it was not associated with any of the above, and because of my personal resources and abilities I was able to approach it in a different way than taking to the street: ie I could start a business and market myself as an escort.

Also, re. MrsJ's story, how do you expect a man to know whether a girl is trafficked? Do you think a foreign accent is enough? In my home town there are plenty of eastern European women (some quite young) who are working in the sex trade and making a very good living at it, they have come over voluntarily and will very quickly be able to earn enough to return home and establish themselves (buy property etc) in their home countries. OK they might not relish the job, it might make them feel shit about themselves, but they are not being coerced, they are making a trade-off possibly shelving their moral code and self-respect for a while in order to better their personal circumstances.

Or, do you think a coerced/raped woman always demonstrates the fact that she is being coerced/raped in language or body language? Trafficked women who are 'imprisoned' and have their passports removed etc are under constant threat. They have to 'perform' to the utmost in order to keep their pimps happy, to protect themselves, and in the desperate hope that they will soon earn enough to have freed themselves. The sad truth is that if MrsJ's husband ever did have sex with a trafficked woman he probably not only thought she was willing but also that she enjoyed it

no, you're right mrsj about what he said, i meant to come back and correct that, because i was talking about how i would feel but appreciate it didn't come across clearly and could have looked like i was 'quoting' you. however, like jenny60 (and you, clearly), i have huge qualms about the whole thing. a man who would rent a woman just so he could come somewhere wet (as another poster said on here), i mean, that's just not the guy i want to be partnered with. i wish you all the very best with reconciling yourself to what he has done.

I'm not playing any more. I've been insulted enough, but!

Have you never voiced something badly and been picked up on your phrasing because it sounded wrong?

When a prospective client tries to picture me, I don't want him to picture a girl on a street corner. What's so wrong with that? I have absolutely nothing against street girls and as I also said (although it was selectively ignored) we are all prostitutes. At the end of the day, we all have sex for money. The differences are all fancy wrapping and marketing.

Anyone on this industry through choice should be listened to. If this is what a woman genuinely wants to do, then fine. How about some safe working conditions? The girl in Cambodia was complaining that the "rescuers" had done away with the brothels and that the girls are now in a much worse position than they were before. It amazes me that nobody will listen.

On the other hand, there are girls who are victims of trafficking, coercion and abuse. Girls who are forced to do what they do and of course they should receive all the help they need. I have never said any different.
I never said we should leave anyone who is abused to "get on with it". I said I would help those who need help. Ask them.
There are girls who work in conditions which would horrify me, but if I talked to them and they explained that in their country, the alternative was much worse, then I wouldn't take away whatever safety they were clinging to in a vague attempt at rescue.
What's wrong with actually listening to what the Cambodian girls have to say? Are they not allowed a voice?

The only people who seem to think they are better than anybody else are the anti sex work brigade. We are constantly told that we cannot decide for ourselves, that we obviously need someone to make our decisions for us, because our decisions don't agree with theirs.

A bit like the treatment I've had here. People waiting to pick up on something I have typed which could be twisted.

well yes, precisely watching, co-erced women would be the last people to transmit any feelings of disgust, because they would be in sincere and pretty much immediate physical danger.

PS If Mrs J's husband was paying £250 a time to visit escorts it is highly unlikely he ever encountered trafficked women. A trafficked woman is usually installed in a venue with a high turnover of customers and she will be required to work constantly probably charging about a quarter of that price

if he did. as i understand it, plenty of thrillseekers do seek out the lower end of the market (so to speak) just to see what it's like.

and yes, the volumes would turn your hair white.

Yes Aitch you're right. He could also be lying to his wife, he could have knowingly had sex with a coerced woman. We'll never know for sure and I suppose nor will MrsJ.

But having said that there is a large majority of (well heeled) clients who do view street prostitutes as 'different' and wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. These men are paying high rates to independent escorts specifically so they don't have to go and pick up a girl on a street corner or walk into a parlour, for whatever reason.

yes, although to turn that around a bit, what a tremendous sleazebag to think that 'those' girls aren't good enough to touch with his precious dick when all he wants to do is come inside a stranger and be unfaithful to his wife anyway. really, the snobbery is extraordinary, how do these married men justify their behaviour to themselves? is he a better class of ratbag husband because he's paying more of the family money towards the experience? clearly in his eyes...

Manda: I'm not telling you that you can't decide for yourself or that I want to tell you what to do. You clearly can decide for yourself. But, I think that what you do is overall not good for women, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to wade in against the happy hooker stuff you've been coming out with here. You may be happy, you may think the men who pay you respect you, you may think you are offering an important service or making a perfectly reasonable business decision. Good for you.

I don't, however, think that any man who rents a woman's body can have the slightest shred of respect for her or any other woman for that matter, I don't think it's ok to pander to men who think it's fine to rent a woman's body for the sole purpose of shagging it, I don't think it's healthy for a 14 year old boy to think it's cool that men want to shag his mother (nice idea of women he's going to have!), and I don't think that it's right for you disassociate yourself from the wider industry which is damaging to women. You are part of it and you contribute to it, no matter how far removed you are personally from the drug addicted gilr oon the street.

Can't win if you do can't win if you don't your now critising someone because he wouldn't want to have sex with street walkers or girls in brothels.

1. Such women are more likely to have problems with drugs

1. The risk of a woman being trafficked would be higher in brothels. Although most prostitutes are not anyway.

1. It's illegal

watchingrain "how do you expect a man to know whether a girl is trafficked? Do you think a foreign accent is enough"

The point is not whether he knows, the point is that he doesn't care one way or another. The rapist analogy with a man who buys a prostitute refers to the concept that a man cannot possibly know the background of the woman he's paying, whether she's suffered abuse as a child or not. He simply cannot know. And it's the women's job to act like she's loving it. So how could a man possibly ever know?

oh i plumb do not think that married men should be unfaithful to their wives, whatever the circumstances (other than with their wife's consent, obv). of course he 'can't win', Sal. why should i admire him for the fact that he thinks he's too good for a trafficked woman, but still thinks it's cool to be unfaithful to his wife? i don't really see your point.