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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

WWIFN will you come and talk to me please?

92 replies

howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 20:33

OK - I recognise that you probably despise someone like me. There is a back story on here but I won't bore you with the full details except to say I have had an emotional affair. I'm trying hard to get to the other side of it and fix things. I am interested in your view that the problem is with the person who had the affair. I know it isn't my DH and it is me that is the problem. But I don't know how to fix myself. I'm such a fuck up, I don't know where to start. I want to fix things.

I read all these threads for clues. I've never done anything immoral before - people would be so shocked and disgusted by my betrayal.

How do I flush out the problems? How can I make it up to him and make it right?

OP posts:
stillcrying · 17/09/2010 20:47

I am not WWIFN. She is wiser than I will ever be and will have some extremely good advice. But didn't want you to go unanswered. And I can give you the other side, albeit from a slightly raw perspective...

Are you sorry? Do you know what prompted you to do this, and why are you trying to make it right now? And what is "right" - a reconciliation? Does your husband know?

I would say that trust is fragile. And it will take a lot of time and effort to rebuild and you will have to be patient and try very very hard. And allow him to grieve, rage and lash out at you. That's all part of the healing process.

You could find a good counsellor - someone who won't judge but who will let you, either with your husband or on your own - get to the bottom of this. If you're anything like my husband (and you aren't because you're asking how to fix this!) you may well have a lot going on in your mind that you need to get straight. Until you're clear why you've done what you've done I'm not sure how far you will get with fixing it.

Thats not helpful, sorry. But I know if my husband had shown an ounce of genuine remorse for what he did, he and I would be in a different place now.

howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 21:00

I am very sorry. I suppose 'right' is building trust and feeling like a family again. I carry so much guilt, I can't look at him sometimes.

I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous but I don't understand how it got to this. Everything is so muddied in my mind, and I want to shout out how sorry I am and make it right.

It's quite complicated - there are two threads on here about it. I told DH and he didn't react really and I didn't understand that. To my shame, I responded to further contact from OM some time after that who is now separated and living apart from his family. I have now stopped again. It never became sexual which I am so glad about but it doesn't detract from the intesnity of feelings etc. If it was me who had been betrayed, I think I'd be devastated regardless of whether it had become sexual or not.

Basically I think I'm defective in some way and I don't know how to understand and change. I'm so scared that I will ruin my little family - I really want to make amends and never ever be so weak to do anything like it again.

OP posts:
perfumedlife · 17/09/2010 21:27

I read some of your othe thread about the OM and his wife contacting you.

I'm afraid I think you are quite simply totally and utterly in love with this man. Sometimes it really is as simple as that.

Why are you staying with your husband? Do you think you can make it work?

digggers · 17/09/2010 21:28

bless you howdi, how you doing? have you managed not to contact your OM in all this time then? xx

walkingonsunshine · 17/09/2010 21:48

Sorry if you have covered this elsewhere in your threads but have you had counselling for you? A Relate counsellor may be able to help you sort that muddle you describe.

How are you going to move on and keep your family together in the longer term unless you explore why you got into the relationship with OM in the first place?

howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 21:49

I've thrown myself into work but know that ultimately I have to deal with it.

I sincerely want to make it work.

We had a blip since and met once (the trying to be friends I now know is a no go) and no more since. We met - for a coffee in a crowded cafe for less than hour. He walked me to my car, hugged me for a minute and kissed my forehed. We were both crying.

I gave it the benefit of the doubt on an above board friends basis but it clearly won't work.

I didn't tell DH about the coffee so I know it was wrong.

OP posts:
howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 21:52

I wouldn't know where to start with a personal counsellor. I'm not depressed or ill. It sort of goes against how I've been brought up. Like navel gazing or something and I should pull myself together. I'm clear that I've done wrong. I just want to know what made me do it so I never do it again.

OP posts:
celticfairy101 · 17/09/2010 21:58

In order to move forward I think you have to stop writing about what you have done, i.e. actions, such as the blip of meeting him again for coffee. You are out of your bubble and it's reality that has hit you.

I think what you need to focus on is what it is about YOU. I wouldn't necessarily focus on the immorality of it (is that really your point of view or is it something that you think others will see it as?).

It seems to me that you are depressed. Everyday family life is a struggle so you have thrown yourself into work. This is an avoidance tactic.

To make it work with your husband, to bring back cohesion to the family unit and ultimately happiness again (when you meet this man you end up sad and crying - no basis for a lasting relationship), you HAVE to stop seeing the other man.

howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 22:10

There are people in these threads who have had relationships which survived infidelity - but what was it that was wrong about the person committing the betrayal. What did they work on to start to make things better?

OP posts:
loopyloops · 17/09/2010 22:21

I'm sorry, I haven't read your other threads and I'm not WWIFN and won't come close, but I think you are very brave. You need some time away from work, possibly away from your family, to work out what you feel about your life at the moment. Are you happy in your marriage? Are you coping with your children? Do you enjoy your job? Do you enjoy sex with your husband and do you fancy him? Are you annoyed at him for not being angry about what happened? Do you want him to fight for you?

Once you have come to some conclusions about what you want out of life, you can then address the remaining guilt. But there is not something inherently wrong with you, you met someone who offered something that was missing elsewhere in your life. You managed to restrain yourself and have taken steps to make amends.

Look after yourself, you are doing really well and I applaud your courage.

kittya · 17/09/2010 22:27

as alot of us said in your other threads, can you take some time out to be on your own for abit? do you really deep down want to be with your husband are are you not a little bit pissed off with him for not reacting enough? why is he so nonchalant about it all?

howdiditcometothis · 17/09/2010 22:33

kittya - I have very little annual leave left for the year and it is booked to spend time with DD. I have FT job and DD to look after so no chance of time away.

I don't know why DH didn't react - he seemed a bit paralysed by it. But he is trying hard to make things work now. I had been very stressed about a work thing this week and staying up late into the night working on a presentation as well as juggling everything else. When I got home from work on the day of the presentation he had bought a very beautiful hand tied boquet to say well done. I had to go upsatirs to the loo and cry because his thoughtfulness broke my heart when I think of the fact my head has been elsewhere with someone else and he is so good.

OP posts:
kittya · 17/09/2010 22:42

do you think you have been abit bored? dont hit the wine!! (I know its Friday though) how about your girlfriends? can you have a night out with them, take your mind off it?

I second the counselling, although it wouldnt be for me but it might suit you. Go by yourself.

Well done anyway for not getting intouch with OM, I know how tempting that is.

digggers · 17/09/2010 22:45

howdi lovel, you're doing so well, don't beat yourself up, you've made so much progress xx

Just an observation: you say you're reluctant to see a counsellor, but you're also asking WWIFN to counsel you in this thread. Now WWIFN has had experience of adultery from a specific viewpoint, and I'm sure will be able to offer you some excellent perspectives (infact I'm sure I even once asked her to come and talk to you on one of your other threads), but she isn't someone you will be talking outloud to (making things real, helping you accept the validity of secret thoughts and feelings), she isn't a weekly appointment just for you to talk and release all these negative emotions and help you cope with your life, she isn't trained in how to facilitate you to discover why you act the way you do.

regardless of the attitude towards counsellors in your family and background, please have an open mind. You desperately want one, orelse why would you keep asking us all for counselling here?

sending you love lady. please go easy on yourself. You've had a tough summer. Use the dark months to cossett and cosy yourself, go deep into you and heal xx

stillcrying · 17/09/2010 23:29

Honestly, if you can find a counsellor you like and trust, I think you would find it very helpful. I do sympathise with the "I'm not I'll" mentality but something needs fixing and counselling is about getting the help you need to fix it. If your car broke down, you'd get a mechanic. Your marriage is in trouble, so talk to someone who can help. I haven't read your other threads, I'm sorry, but it sounds like you would ideally benefit from seeing someone on your own first before you talk about it together.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/09/2010 02:14

Howdi I have just seen this and I am very willing to help. My perspective has always been the same - good people are having affairs and that infidelity doesn't have to define someone, as long as the person learns from the experience and becomes the sort of person who could never deceive, or collude in deceiving, another. I have low tolerance for people who believe that infidelity is acceptable in some circumstances, or for those who project blame on to others for their own choices.

From what you've written, you display none of the latter traits. I sympathise hugely for what is a very human predicament, but as you suggest, I always think people are going to heal properly if they are somewhat introspective and look at their own behaviour and choices throughout.

As has been wisely pointed out upthread however, I am not a trained therapist and what ever help I can give you, please consider some proper therapy for yourself. I would screen your counsellor very carefully however, because I think you need someone who will be quite challenging who won't offer you platitudes or persuade you that you have justifications for your actions.

I have a few questions for you that might help me understand more (I have some knowledge of your earlier threads) but hopefully they will get you thinking too.

Tell us about your marriage on the run-up to this affair. I want you to focus on how much you think you were giving to the relationship - and how much you were receiving in return. Try and recall an event if it helps you to timeline this - how do you remember feeling at this point?

How were you feeling about "life" before the affair? You say you have young DC(s) and you work full-time. Can you chart whether you felt any differently about yourself and life ahead, after motherhood? How long did you defer motherhood and how old were you when you had your DCs?

Tell us about your upbringing and especially, your attachment style to care-givers. Was this secure, anxious or did it instil in you a resilience and a detachment from people, either because of emotional needs not being met, or a desire to gain approval in your family?

What is about yourself and the role you have enacted with the OM, that you like? Has this relationship allowed you to enact a role or behave in a certain way that would surprise others - and has surprised you?

Being truly honest with yourself, why do you think you were vulnerable to an affair?

What lifestyle vulnerabilities exist, in terms of your job or the people who have shaped and influenced you? How is infidelity regarded by the people you respect and admire most? What are your friends' views on infidelity, right across the triangle, from the OW/OM's perspective, the unfaithful partner and the uninvolved spouse? Was there any infidelity in yours or your H's family and if so, what messages were absorbed?

Finally, some stuff about you and your approach to life and relationships. What things have tended to affirm you, in terms of self-esteem? How do you respond to times when your needs have had to take a back seat and other adults are centre-stage, or preoccupied with other things? What resentments have you felt, either with life or especially, within your marriage?

I would like to hear more about your husband's response to this crisis, because I think it's significant, but that's enough to be going on with for a while! Smile

Apologies in advance too, if I am slow to respond this weekend (family stuff) but I will do my level best.

howdiditcometothis · 18/09/2010 09:25

Thank you so much for this. I didn't know if it was appropriate or right to ask but you give such good insightful advice, I had to try. I will read it properly and answer a bit later. On mummy duty and didn't want to not acknowledge the time and thought you have taken.

Thanks and hi to digggers - my life support machine on the previous thread.

OP posts:
olderandsexierbyfar · 18/09/2010 10:57

I think you are in a guilty almost depressed state of panic...stop over blaming yourself...life is complicated and you are so busy trying to right the wrong you will end up not doing what you need/want to do
Stop worrying about what everyone thinks and trying to make it up to your dh...apologise,of course but don't stay with him out of guilt and self blame/obsession.

howdiditcometothis · 18/09/2010 11:53

OK - an attempt to answer some of the questions above.

The marriage wasn't in a good place before the affair. We had stopped communicating. DH was on long term sick leave (stress related) which started a few weeks before I went back to work from mat leave. That situation had been ongoing for about 6 months and I think we'd both closed down. I had a new role and was trying to prove myself - they had some concerns given me having a baby. I hadn't wanted to return FT or into such a demanding role but I'd lost confidence in DH's ability to hold down a job and felt I had to take it on so that we could pay the mortgage.

It meant my DD going into nursery FT and to be honest, I thought my heart was going to break at the beginning when she was going there. I felt so ripped apart leaving her and found getting through the day at work very hard. I could only cope by throwing myself into the job.

I suppose I felt angry and resentful that the responsibility fell squarely on my shoulders. At the time DH either wouldn't or couldn't address any of this.

Now, I'm not complaining about going back to work. 've always been driven and have built up a great CV in a profesional field BUT we had agreed that we would keep an eye out for a PT, less demanding job for me while DD (and the hoped for other baby) were small and that DH would 'step up' for that time. I would then when they started school ramp up my career and DH could do something more creative or go PT.

Now I know plans rarely work out especially operating in the decimated jobs market that we're in now but I suppose I was angry that it felt like DH had opted out and it was up to me to sort everything. As it is I take care of all financial, house, mortgage, bills, insurance etc. This has been an ongoing bone of contention with occasional rows cropping up. I'm of the opinion we should share this stuff equally, DH will agree during a row (nagging session I suppose) but then do nothing about it until red letters are coming through the door which I eventually open. Now I read that back it sounds ike I'm blaming DH - I'm not 'm just trying to explain the background to the marriage at the time. So, like other things, I just decided to do ot myself - not worth the aggro.

The other big issue around the time of the affair starting was that we had moved house and bought our forever house (biggish mortgage). I drove the process but DH loved the house we bought and was really involved in viewings etc. I sorted the mortgage for us after some disappointing meetings with IFAs and got us a decent rate and terms. But I didn't want the responsibility for signing us up to something like that. I set aside time for us to go through the papers, repayments (as against nursery fees, salary etc) but DH wouldn't be pinned down. He promised to work through it on his own and told me he had before we signed.

It transpired afterwards that he hadn't read the papers and that was the final straw for me in some ways. I withdrew because I felt that was such a breach of trust. And so irresponsible.

I'm fairly cautious and signed us up to something that we could afford on one salary - which was a good thing as DH has had so much sick leave he wasn't payed for a good proportion of the year.

I just got to the point I think of being very angry and resentful that I was paying the full nursery fees, mortgage, sorting DD's meals, clothes etc, always tired and in a really stressful work environment. It was so far from what I'd hoped we could manage between us and I wasn't able to enoy DD growing up - that felt like the biggest loss and I know it will haunt me for years to come.

I've resigned myself to no more children in my marriage because I couldn't cope with this and 2 children. And although DH is in a better place and back at work (although not full hours), I would always be looking over my shoulder for the next time.

The flip side of all of this is that I was irritable, tired and fed up at home. He wasn't in a good place and I failed to help him with that in any meaningful way. I screamed and shouted on the rare times we talked about things. I was out of control and sometimes I felt like I hated him and blamed him for everything.

He must have wondered why he married such a cold horrible woman who didn't look after him when he was low.

I do feel very guilty about that.

I felt quite numb to life at the time. I can remember feeling trapped and wondering if I'd done the right thing having DD because it meant I couldn't leave. That is in itself crazy because she was the most longed for child - I had been desperate to get pregnant and had two post 12 week miscarriages before I had my successful pregnancy with DD. I loved being pregnant (completely terrified and I did bleed with her and thought she'd gone a few times) but once I got past 20 weeks and I had my bump, I was so serene and so happy. I loved every uncomfortable minute of it. I loved maternity leave - I felt so happy to be her mummy. Even a pretty traumatic and horrible birth didn't put a dent in it. I was 29 when I had her - quite average I thnk.

I don't know what my attachment style is like. I've always been grounded. I am pretty resilient and everybody always describes me as capable. Which I despise because it seems to give people licence to rely on me and never ever think that I would possibly need anything back. I grew up in a big family (5 kids) and we are loving and close. I probably don't have the sort of relationship with my mum that you might have in a smaller family. She's very maternal and so helpful and giving to say she has all tehse kids and grandkids - she will put herself out to help if she can but I think she preferred my brother and sisters. I wonder if all kids in big families think that. I did definitely try to gain approval from mum and dad. I was a bit of a 'high flyer' at school from the beginning. I realised that wasn't cool and kept it to myself but I didn't need to try, was affable and well liked but came out of the not best comp in the world with straight As. Did that at A level - decided on the job I'd do and went and did the 6 years training and qualified. Went to uni miles and miles away which my mum took as me being deliberately arkward. I was very driven throughout and although my Dad was proud as punch and would brag to all and sundry my mum wasn't impressed by it and I think found my single mindedness annoying.

My job is a bit of a vulnerability - expected to socialise etc. One client asked me "how married are you?" and I've been propositioned on another occasion after a black tie event. We do major projects and work intensely in smallish teams for the length of the projects. I have seen it happen at work quite a lot.

Otherwise, no infidelity in either family or our friendship circle.

It has surprised me how much these questions have helped my thinking. I think what I liked with OM was the fact that he was older and took control a bit - he made me feel as though he would look after me, protect me. It was a strange feeling and yes I was surprised that I liked that feeling - at one point I was caught up in the intensity of the whole thing and in the right circumstances I may have slept with him. He took control of that and said that he wouldn't let me do that while I still thought I could sort my marriage out. Without him making that decision, I may have thought 'sod it' and then forever regretted it. I guess it was nice to pass over the decision making for a bit.

Sorry for the war and peace response. And thank you again.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/09/2010 12:56

You're doing brilliantly. Keep going. What has tended to affirm you then, in terms of your self-esteem? Tell me about how important it has been to you to be regarded as attractive by men for example. And what other things have affirmed your self-esteem up to now.

tadpoles · 18/09/2010 13:02

Howdiditcome - doesn't sound as though you are getting what you want from your marriage. The level of anxiety attached to hanging on to the "relationship" sounds completely exhausting. Is this really what marriage is supposed to be about? What do you want to "fix"? Agonising over an affair which wasn't even technically an affair just seems to be clouding the issue. Do you really want to remain in the mariage?

howdiditcometothis · 18/09/2010 13:53

tadpoles - I know my marriage doesn't sound good but we were very happy once. I'm trying to hang on in there 'for better for worse' because I look at people who have been married years and think that they must have been challenged at times but seen it through and perhaps that's what love actually is.

WWIFN - I think academic success and work success have been the biggest things to affirm me - maybe that's what's wrong with me - I don't know. The one thing I didn't like about mat leave was what felt like my loss of status overnight.

With regard to men. I don't know. I was never the pretty one at school - it would always be my friends who would get asked out. But I think that is because my looks didn't conform to what was popular (redhead). When I went to sixth form college that changed and I had a lovely boyfriend and quite a few offers. Again, at uni plenty of offers and as I've got a bit older - I must have grown into my looks or something but I am still always surprised that people find me attractive (a hangover from being a teen). A big part of the attraction initially to DH was his looks - 6'2", dark, olive skinned, handsome, slim but broad and I suppose I always felt that I was less attractive than him. He's always said that it's the opposite and he finds me beautiful. I find it tricky - I honestly wouldn't be able to evaluate myself but the guys I've gone out with have all been attractive men so I guess I can't be that bad. Just before I got married an old friend that I'd had for years, told me he had always been in love with me since we met when we were 16. I thought he was joking - couldn't get my head round it and he said that I had always been completely oblivious to it when people liked me. I just come from a point of expecting no interest and feel shocked when it comes along. Less so now I suppose - a wedding ring seems to give the green light to (idiot) men. I've had to remove myself from situations where sleazy guys have been very full on. I'm not flirty - I like male company and work with lots of men but I think I'm seen more as one of the guys, able to take a joke etc. I have a total blind spot where some women play on their femininity in the workplace - that isn't me.

But yes, it is nice when you don't expcet it, to be told you're beautiful, alluring, attractive - and I guess when that has happened it has boosted my self esteem.w

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/09/2010 14:58

This is high quality thinking, Howdi. I want to reflect back then, what I think you are saying:

  • You feel that your mother may have preferred your siblings.
  • You felt your Dad was proud of you, but your mother, less so and perceived you as "awkward" for wanting to study so far away.
  • You have always done everything "right". You've been the perfect student, the perfect employee, you married a perceived-to-be perfect man and you bought a perfect "forever" house.
  • When your DD was born, you wanted the chance to be the "perfect mummy", but your H's illness and your better grip on the financial realities got in the way of that and you felt you had no choice but to go back to work.
  • Work was a slog, you felt like you were under scrutiny at first and you feel the biggest loss is not being allowed to stay at home with your DD.
  • You felt resentful to your DH for: not helping himself to get well, his feckless attitude to finances and paperwork, placing so much responsibility for everything on to you at a time when you were exhausted, lying to you about the mortgage paperwork, not being able to plan for another DC.
  • The OM seemed the polar opposite of your H; strong, decisive, moral, protective of you. In this relationship, you were allowed to be vulnerable and child-like. You give the OM enormous credit for protecting you from yourself and acting on your desire. You were happy to pass the decision-making over to someone else.
  • You have extremely low narcissistic tendencies and are not defined by your attractiveness to men. You are defined by your brain and work ethic. You are not defined by marriage and motherhood (although you still want to do those things perfectly) and felt a loss of what had previously defined you (the status of having a good brain and a good job) when you were on maternity leave. When you returned to work, you got that back, but felt losses in other areas.

What conclusions do you reach from all this, then Howdi?

purplepeony · 18/09/2010 15:19

Howdi- I remember your threads before and i really do think that you should go to a counsellor. You need to talk about this in RL and not with web strangers.
Counselling is not for people who are simply ill or depressed- it is for anyone who wants an impartial 3rd party to listen to them.

All these issues about your childhood, self-esteem and so on are bread and butter for counsellors- it's what they do every day.

I don't want to knock you when you are down, but in a way by turning to the web here, you are not owning your problems- you need to to talk to a human being!

The whole point of counselling is that it gives you space to off load and is non-judgemental, unlike MN. It is not about giving you aswers, but about you being guided to understand what makes you tick and what you want.

I am not a counsellor but have 3 friends who are, and my BF had weekly counselling for 5 years- all to do with her relationship with her family- her mother, her father who was violent, her brother is gay, and she took all of this into her marriage.

Counsellors are trained to deal with you and situations like yours. I am not and no -one here is.

What I would say though is- give yourself a break. What you have done is be attracted to another man. You haven't committed murder.

I think your lack of persepctive on this is one reason why you really do need to see someone in Rl.

Good luck!

howdiditcometothis · 18/09/2010 19:32

WWIFN - they all seem like fair assertions, uncomfortable as they are to see in black and white.

But this is where I get stuck. I don't know what conclusion to draw except I'm unhappy and I've got my life all wrong. I cannot see the way forward and what I crave more than anything is someone to step in and tell me what the right thing to do is.

PP - you've been so helpful to me in the past and although I'm still in a rut, MN stopped me from pushing the self destruct button completely. I avoided WWIFN's threads previously because I didn't feel ready to face up to looking at myself and understanding my own defects that were driving my actions. I'm trying to see things differently - rather than being sucked into thinking of it in terms of falling in love. I think WWIFN seems to have a lot of experience from another perspective and if she is willing to advise, I'm grateful for that.

OP posts:
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