Is Mumsnet healthy for relationships?

[Footlong]

I am starting to wonder. The plethora of anguished threads, all seem to get similar responses. Mainly around dengrating the husband or male partner. This is usually based on the one sided initial complaint of the thread starter.

All to quick the advice to 'leave the husband' is trotted out, and the original posters views are validated and sympathy given. But isnt this a symptom of the internet age? We only hear one side of the story, we dont know if the facts are fairly presented, we dot know the people involved, if they are even facts at all! But of course we cant accuse people of lying, when in we are in reality ignorant.

I have actually got quite annoyed with some of the anti-male advice given on here, that encourages destruction of a family from the safety of the internet. In isolation this advice might be valid, but given the one sided nature of the complaint, I can but wonder if people arent just validating someones bad behaviour dressed up as being a victim.

I started a new thread on this because I dont want to accuse anyone directly, this is just a general observation. In times past people got this sort of advice from friends and family. Friends and family know the people involved and can often see both sides more accurately and possibly tell the complainant a few home truths and point out that often (not always obviously!) it takes 2 to create a realtionship disaster zone.
Our anonymous faces on the internet validating peoples decision to seperate a family unit is a very dangerous thing to do when we only hear one side.

But what can you do? Refuse to give people advice or support? Call them a liar? No... it is a conundrum. Possibly the only way is to sometimes try and read between the lines and question.

I think that most posters on here advise counselling unless there appears to be actual abuse going on actually.

But as you say- what else can a bunch of randoms on the internet offer except a bit of an opinion?

Nobody is getting a gun held to their head.

Too many 'actually's...but you know what I mean.

I think you make some really valid points. I sometimes feel uncomfortable when I hear talk of some man being labelled abusive because of some snapshot of a relationship told from one perspective.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with some of the accusations of narcissism and NPD. By definition, a narcissist would see no fault on their part, and we can label some DH or DP a narcissist based on one viewpoint.

That's not to say that any of these stories aren't 100% true, but there is a risk of what you say. Maybe I am just shocked at how many miserable relationships there are out there

how can it bring perpsective when you only have one angle? That is actually the opposite of persepctive. That is linear.

BitofFun - I am jsut thinking some of the opinion is a bit... extreme. given our collective ignorance of the bigger picture.
I would never complain about unhappy people being told to seek counselling.

Oh come on, no one is going to "destroy a family" because of any advice given here.
In many cases the family has already been destroyed and the person asking for advice has been desperately trying to keep it together against the odds.
If anything they try too hard to give their other halves the benefit of the doubt. "He calls me names and sulks for months at a time but he's a great dad" etc.

Who are you quoting with the 'destroy a family' quote marks?

I never said families would be destroyed by advice on here, but damage could be done by validating bad/unfair behaviour based on half the facts and one side of a story.

some words may be to harsh, but the majority are of great support and encouragement

often with examples of help which is available, books to read etc

I think that on the balance is actually positive.

Agree with lost

I dont agree to be honest , although your right in that years gone by people got this advice from freinds or family who knew both of them . The problem with that , is even if you aproached a close family member , he or she only sees what goes on publicly , they cannot possibly know how that person behaves in private no matter how well they think they know them. Theyve also got their own personal feelings towards that person which also clouds their judgement.

I dont think anyone is going to leave their partner on the basis of what some strangers on the internet say, and i dont think ive ever heard anyone advise someone to leave their husband on the basis of one initial complaint.
I can not imagine why somebody would come on here and claim their partner is abusive if theyre not. Usually , they do not even recognise that and try desperateley to defend it .

But, it is relationships after all , and people dont usually post about their fantastic partners so it is all a bit doom and gloom.

I have started to wonder how my life might have turned out if I'd lurked earlier and had some mn support while I was experiencing some horrible relationship shite.

I think it would have helped me get out a whole lot earlier and easier.

footlong I totally agree.
but I also think some people have been enormously helped to see that things in their somewhat extreme relationships are NOT ok.
The problem comes when a "one size fits all" approach is crowbarred into relationship problems.

And some on here seem to be obsessed with the notion that every troubled poster's husband is probably having an affair.

Also there is very little or NO airspace given to the "wronged" partner's contributory behaviour in relationship breakdowns/infidelity

It's a difficult one. My overall feeling is that it's a GOOD thing for women to have their feelings validated and told it's okay to leave if they are not happy, or that they shouldn't put up with some shit just because they have been with someone for years.

I posted early on about my now XP and some of his (looking back) abusive behaviours and was NOT told to leave. In retrospect I was desparate for someone to tell me it was okay to do so. I don't think anybody considers leaving lightly, especially when there are children involved. Even after I saw from several threads as well as my own subsequent threads that people were saying it was okay to leave it still took months and months before I built up the courage and got to that point where I literally couldn't take it any more. Mumsnet helped me get to that point before the relationship escalated to physical violence. I think I always would have left, I think it would have just taken much longer, and perhaps me and DS would have been in danger (aside from the emotional damage etc already inflicted)

I always try to see both sides but I tend to be drawn to those threads which show low level red flags for abuse, controlling behaviours etc. They tend to be pretty split on opinion in the beginning, and then 9 times out of 10, the OP comes back and posts something totally shocking her partner has done, even though the OP was about something minor. It's like you ignore the big things and focus on the minor things thinking they will change. It just annoys me on these threads though that people assume the posters saying "Leave him!" or posting links to domestic violence websites etc aren't seeing the bigger picture, and then - surprise - the bigger picture turns out to be just that. And all the "OMG, you are all overreacting!!" posts just continue to hide DV and abusive behaviours IMO making the victim doubt themselves even more.

I'm not saying everyone should take the hard line, I think difference of opinion on threads is good, but I guess I'm just saying don't discount the idea so quickly. I usually say "OP does he do X, Y, Z?" rather than going straight for "OMG leave!!!" and make a suggestion/give information rather than a diagnosis, as I think it's rarely clear cut, but downplaying things can do more harm than good sometimes.

Sorry, I was actually paraphrasing: "...some of the anti-male advice given on here, that encourages destruction of a family..."
Pardon my quote marks. :o

You say 'destruction of a family' like it's a bad thing, OP. There's already way too much advice in the maintstream which boils down to 'Women! Suck it up! It's your fault if he does fuck all around the house, puts you down constantly and demands sex all the time, learn to love it because that's the only wayto be fulfilled as a woman.' Women are encouraged just about everywhere to forgive and 'fix' men who are selfish and abusive because of the idea that only men matter and women are secondary.
One of the great things about the internet in general is that it shows people who have spent their lives surrounded by abusive fuckwits that there are options for them.
'Family' is all too often used to mean 'Women putting up with shit because women don't matter'.

Interesting because I think there is far to much mainstream media telling men and woman that they are always the victim and that they have a right to be selfish.

And destruction of a family is a bad thing.

I think that by the time someone has plucked up the courage to write their own thread, they are already sufficiently concerned that all is not well and often want to get an objective (in that the MNetters do not know them) opinion about whether they are overreacting, or seeing things that are not there.

In the vast majority of infidelity threads for example, the poster already has their suspicions and wants people to tell them straight whether they could be right, or whether they are going mad.

I imagine that the reason posters don't try to persuade a betrayed spouse that they have contributed to the infidelity that has befallen them is because they didn't - that was their partner's choice entirely. However that is vastly different to acknowledging their contribution to any problems in the marriage that may have pre-existed the infidelity.

That said, I have often posted about the double-standard sometimes seen on here if a female poster admits infidelity, when there are lots of posts trying to persuade her that she must have good reasons for her behaviour, notably the faults in her partner.

In summary, I think posters get the balance right most of the time - and will often acknowledge that their history and experience might be skewing their take on an issue. I think the relationships board achieves far more good, than harm - and fortunately most posters have the sense and intelligence to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

"'Family' is all too often used to mean 'Women putting up with shit because women don't matter'."

Yes, exactly.

Destruction of a happy, healthy family is a bad thing. But it's unlikely. Nobody posts saying "I'm so happy, my husband is so wonderful, but I fancy being a single parent for a bit. I want to leave!"

It's not a happy, healthy family if it's so bad that someone is considering leaving though. Children are better off in a stable single parent family than a two-parent household where the parents are arguing and fighting or controlling each other or being manipulative or upsetting each other all the time. Of course it's best of all if both parents live together and are happy, modelling a good relationship, but if this is not possible for whatever reason then I really think that it's better the parents do separate.

There's a lot I don't like about Mumsnet and I agree with you about outbreaks of man-bashing. But I LOVE this relationship forum. It's populated by very experienced & intelligent women, who put (female) posters' welfare, and that of their children, above mindlessly received 'family values'. It's rare enough to find experience and intelligence in one person - to find so many, in one place and ready to give counsel, is very special.

Throughout BOTH of my abusive marriages, I sought advice for my unhappiness. I talked to friends & relations, bought countless books and consulted therapists. I spent tens of thousands on 'improving' myself, my attitude and my 'insecurity issues'. Nobody told me I was being abused - just one counsellor said I was being bullied. Everyone else was eager to help me change, but never queried whether the man I loved was right to find such fault with me.

This forum is different and better. Wise, experienced posters pick up on oddities in OP stories, which indicate an abusive situation. Perhaps less-experienced readers miss these signposts, thinking someone has made false assumptions. But they haven't: if they're not sure, they'll ask again and again. I learn a lot here; I wish more women (and men) would learn it, too.

in an abusive relationship often the best way to regain the balance is for one partner to leave. this does not neccessarily mean they must leave for good. but the space is necessary and can often work very well as a wake up call that all is not right.

i would have to say its one of the most effective steps a person in a relationship can take when all is not well. and yes it is recomended by a lot of books and counsellors and proffesionals.

I knew something in my relationship wasn't right for a long time but I blamed myself. I thought that because I had had a horrible childhood I didn't know how to be a good partner so whenever my exP used to bully and belittle me I thought he had a right/point.

It was only when I came on mumsnet (and thank god I found this forum) that I finally understood that what was happening to me was emotional abuse. The relief at realising it wasn't all my fault was overwhelming and it didn't take me long after that to end my relationship for good.

I was a bit like you at first, Footlong. I was on the defensive because I didn't want to accept that my relationship was a destructive mess (I'd always kidded myself about how happy we were), so initially I felt that MNers were a bit presumptuous to be telling me to leave him. But the more I read on here the more I came to understand that there are people on here who have unfortunately experienced all kinds of abuses and have come out the other side stronger, wiser, and genuinely wanting to impart helpful advice to others. Abuse follows a script and the more you learn about the different types of abuse, the quicker you're able to recognise it in other people's posts.

No one on here who told me to leave my partner did so because they wanted to ruin my life, they did so because they wanted to help me make it better. And they did.

It may seem biased but the majority of posters on here are women posting about their problems with men, so law of averages says it's going to appear that way. I would argue that most of the advice given on here is well thought out and helpful, certainly if you read this thread you will see the advice evolve from the 'it's your fault, you're a man' stance to the complete opposite as the other posters draw out more information from the OP (who is male).

I disagree that women are too quickly labelled "victims" here and told to leave their marriages.

I was reading an academic article about DV yesterday which said that women trying to disclose abuse often test the waters with a fairly minor disclosure at first, and then if they find their hearer sympathetic, they disclose more. I think this explains a pattern where a woman will come on here to say something fairly minor, and then over the course of the discussion, the real misery gets revealed. If you don't know what's going on, of course it can look as if posters are taking a small incident and blowing it up into an abuse situation.

I'm also aghast at what so many women put up with in their marriages. If the price for intact marriages is women living in fear and misery, the price is too high.

I think there are huge variations. Some posters clearly need someone to say 'get out now'. But sometimes (IME) people are told to leave without suggesting alternatives.

MN (and similar) are great tools for people who are too frightened / embarassed etc to say anything in RL but there are downsides too.

I think the answer is to be calm and rational etc. This form of communication is clearly here to stay, so people who need it will be well served by it. Personally I would try to avoid offering advice of that sort and offer support unless the situation clearly needs is.

RE the personality disorders etc, isn't that simply the way we are now? Everyone has a label, a disorder. Sometimes people are just plain nasty and as a society we do have a tendancy to over-analyse stuff. I'm not saying these things don't exist and I speak from the safety of having a dyslexic DH & DD, having suffered depression blah blah... I do feel that sometimes conditions / disorders / whatever are over diagnosed though.

BM now ducks in preparation for flaming

Mumsnet is just a platform, it's made up of so many users that neither they or mumsnet itself could ever be held accountable for causing damage to a healthy relationship, even if it was a realistic assumption that 'it' does, can or will.

The Oposter always retains absolute autonomy here, whereas disclosing similar issues in RL might create skewed pressures and expectations, which may interfere with the OP's right to and awareness of freedom of choice and positive change.

It is unlikely that an Oposter would ever be able to post an unbiased OP but they usually are posting their truth, in all it's rightful relevance - I see no problem with that or the considered and wise responses that will often follow.

WWIFN mentioned sorting the wheat from the chaff and I agree, it's particularly relevant here but true also to any human communication.