Is Mumsnet healthy for relationships?

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I am starting to wonder. The plethora of anguished threads, all seem to get similar responses. Mainly around dengrating the husband or male partner. This is usually based on the one sided initial complaint of the thread starter.

All to quick the advice to 'leave the husband' is trotted out, and the original posters views are validated and sympathy given. But isnt this a symptom of the internet age? We only hear one side of the story, we dont know if the facts are fairly presented, we dot know the people involved, if they are even facts at all! But of course we cant accuse people of lying, when in we are in reality ignorant.

I have actually got quite annoyed with some of the anti-male advice given on here, that encourages destruction of a family from the safety of the internet. In isolation this advice might be valid, but given the one sided nature of the complaint, I can but wonder if people arent just validating someones bad behaviour dressed up as being a victim.

I started a new thread on this because I dont want to accuse anyone directly, this is just a general observation. In times past people got this sort of advice from friends and family. Friends and family know the people involved and can often see both sides more accurately and possibly tell the complainant a few home truths and point out that often (not always obviously!) it takes 2 to create a realtionship disaster zone.
Our anonymous faces on the internet validating peoples decision to seperate a family unit is a very dangerous thing to do when we only hear one side.

But what can you do? Refuse to give people advice or support? Call them a liar? No... it is a conundrum. Possibly the only way is to sometimes try and read between the lines and question.

"'Family' is all too often used to mean 'Women putting up with shit because women don't matter'."

Exactly. And more often than not by the woman herself.

I read a lot on these threads and while it does often occur to me that we are only hearing one side of the story, a lot of the male behaviour that is causing problems (using prostitutes, internet shenanigans, cheating, violence, extreme financial abuse) if true, is, in any reasonable person's book, bad enough to advise the woman to leave.

Theere was a thread yesterday posted by a woman who had reached the end of her tether and was leaving immediately. She gave the briefest of backgrounds, having posted about her problems with her husband before. Because she had not provided chapter and verse a number of posters who had not read her other threads told her she was overreacting and shouldn't leave. As it turned out they were wrong (which most accepted)

So the idea that we are a bunch of man- haters shouting "leave the bast*rd" is utter tripe.

It just happens that:
a) women have been, and many still are, in an unequal position within relationships and are sometimes conditioned to accept less than ideal treatment from men

b)this forum is mainly frequented by women,

c)the relationship threads are mainly started by people with problems

so it could seem on the face of it that this section is full of women presenting their one sided versions of their relationships being encouraged by shrill men-haters to destroy their families for the sheer sport of it.

I think the reality is as far from that as you can get.

yes, perhaps we do only hear the one side of the story but quite often that is enough. Even if the truth is being misrepresented, if the woman is unhappy then our advice may still hold true.

Sometimes women do get told in no uncetain terms that they are are least partly to blame for whatever has gone wrong and that they are being a high maintenace loon and sometimes men come on here telling us how unreasonable their "mrs" is being and get met with sympathy and genuine advice.

The men haters on here are few and far between. The truth is that most of the women, myself included, who post advice on here, are women who have come out the other side of bad relationships and have found that actually there are good men out there, or are women who have discovered that being a single parent can be infinitely better for them and their kids than being in an unhappy or unhealthy realtionship.

There are one or two who take a very hard feminst line but that is a very useful counterpoint to the traditional view that women should put up and shut up.

I wish to god I had had access to a resource like this when I was younger and putting up with all kinds of crap.

I do agree though that sometimes the NPD diagnoses might occasionally be on the inappropriate side

but I strongly disagree that family or friends can provide a more unbaised view - it is for the very reason that they can't, or can't or won't be told the full horror of the marital situation that this forum can be a much better route to seeking advice.

people rarely tell their friends and families about this kind of stuff, whether out of embarassment or shame, or as they often say on here, because they have been worn down to the point don't really know whether somethig is unacceptable or not - they can articulate things on here that they just can't articulate in real life.

I can only speak from my personal experience, which is thank christ for Mumsnet, because without it I would still be trapped in a shitty, emotionally abusive dead end relationship. As it is I'm living with DS in my own place, happy, free, relaxed and looking forward to what the future might bring.

It was very painful reading when I was still in the relationship, though. I wanted to stick my head in the sand sometimes and just will things to work, I didn't want to hear some of the stuff posted on here. I'm glad I left my ex, but to be honest, it was my decision. Mumsnet helped me to see just how markedly crap things had always been with this particular man, and helped me to see that I deserved better. But I had to make the steps to leave, and it took me a good long while; About a year and a half or so after first discovering these boards. I shudder to think how long it would have taken if I hadn't found MN, or indeed if I would ever have left.

I always remember the woman who posted (I think in relationships) about her partner asking her to move having found a new girlfriend and she resolutely refused to go even though she had her own flat to go to and was losing self-respect by the secone. Mumsnetters gave her some bloody great advice and she refused to take it.

It's not always heavily against men!

its not against men at all, it's heavily against staying in crappy situations when you don't have to!

DUelingFanjo: Oh that was a classic - it started off with everyone saying boohoo, what a bastard and then it steadily became clear that the poor bloke had been trying to get rid of this bunnyboiler for months and she just wouldn't leave, so his telling her he had a new girlfriend wasn't so much brutality as desperation...

A lot of the threads are not actually asking whether or not to end the relationship, but do highlight a lack of knowledge in the OP - for example, she (or he) may not know how the law sits with what's happening or what she has a right to expect.

If you have grown up in one situation and gone to a similar one, you'd be amazed what can seem 'normal' in the context of a relationship.

Also I think people don't post on the relationship thread unless their relationship is already on the skids, you don't seem many 'I feel like killing him for leaving the loo seat up' threads do you (well not in this topic anyway). You would not post here unless you were at wits end or immediately upset and needing to vent. The venters tend to get a 'oh how horrible but tell us more about what happened'.

And personally, if someone is posting 'he's cheating again, it's the fourth time, what should I do' - then there is very little other than leave him she can do to change things.

This is interesting.

I do sometimes feel that an entire thread can be influenced perhaps by one remark or complaint within an OP. the tone of the OP can set it from the off.

So you might post having had a really hard day amd feeling miserable, about something that could or could not be abuse, but the light you are seeing it in when you start the thread is taken as the 'reality' of the situation and most advice will then be pinned to the ethos that is was abuse, even if you return the following day feeling much better and with a more balanced perspective.

But I do think sometimes RL family and friends can inhibit the deeper response of the victim of an abusive relationship therefore the internet can provide the necessary balance.

It varies on every occasion. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it's bad.

As usual, I completely agree with SGB.

I don't know that people go onto a thread where one specific behaviour has been mentioned and say "Oh, because of this he is definitely NPD" though, do they? I could understand if posters are coming on saying "Have you heard of NPD? Maybe it's worth a look." because if you ARE living with someone who fits the NPD profile it's totally insane and impossible to discuss with anyone else, because they just don't get it. When I found the NPD threads last year it was indescribable - it was a massive massive relief to finally find someone who knew what I was talking about. I don't think I'd have clicked on the thread if I hadn't seen it mentioned elsewhere. It made such a difference to my life that I think everyone should be aware of it, whether their partner/mother/sister has it or not, just to be aware that people like this do exist.

I think there is an anti male bias that outweighs the fact that most posters here are female.

I think that almost everything women do is taken as being normal, understandbale in the circumstances etc but men are on the back foot the moment they open their mouths.

So if a woman has a tough day and loses her temper then generally, she gets sympathy. But if a man loses his temper (and he's not here to tell us why) he is classed as abusive etc.

I also remember very well the thread in which the lady had hit her husband, and was quickly advised to leave him as he was an abusive bully.

While that thread was obviously much more complex than what I've just said, I know beyond doubt that there is not one single reason a man could give here as to why he had hit a woman - it would simply be viewed as abuse. But with women's behaviour, it's always open to debate.

Generally, I do sypmathise with and support the women here who need our help, often I have been there myself and can see exactly where they're coming from. But I have seen it from the other side, my brother was the victim of a woman in an abusive relationship and it's worth remembering that one day, your beloved and cherished DS's might also be abused in such a fashion.

You wouldn't want the world automatically blaming him for her behaviour simply becuase he is male.

I don't think that would happen very often MZ . I have seen threads here where women mention hitting a man and they get told in no uncertain terms that they are being abusive/criminal etc.

Women posting about contemplating affairs generally get very short shrift indeed no matter what excuses or justifications they might put forward.

There was another thread on here the other day where a women was venting about her husband being a monster but happened to say that he had said she was abusive.Everyone wanted to know what he meant - why he said that and whether she thought he might be right.

If men posted on here about narcisistic or abusive or philandering women (and there are plently of them about)they would get the same positive support as the women get.

This is very interesting. I think relationships is one of the greatest topics on mumsnet, and sometimes hearing other people say "no, you need to leave" when a woman is actually being abused is great. It gives the women the confidence they need to understand they are not alone, and to leave.

On the other hand, however, I completely see what you mean. I remember reading a thread about a wife whose husband made her pay for something she thought was unfair, and everyone immediately said "leave, leave", and I remember thinking "how silly to leave. its just one blip in a relationsship, a marriage needs to be worked on", but was scared of saying it because I didn't want to stop some poor woman from leaving a relationship if she generally was unhappy. I once posted a thread about my parnters attitude to me in an argument and the things he would call me - probably once a month. Again, I got cries of 'leave him' - but when I spoke to my family and friends they all said "gosh, you're awful in an argument and so difficult to deal with, he deserves a sainthood for only arguing with you monthly"

I suppose it can be difficult to gain perspective from just one persons's point of view, but the invaluable work that is done in the relationship topic outweighs this I suppose.

I'm not sure msboogie. I agree that philandering from anybody is viewed in a very poor light indeed, but I'm not so sure on the general abuse/ bad behaviour front.

On the few occasions men do post on here, I've seen many of them say 'I'm annoyed and hurt becuase my wife does xyz' only to be asked 'well why does she do this, are you supportive of her, do you listen to her' etc etc where if it was the other way round we'd take the OP at completely face value and assume that the man she was complaining about was an arse.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm as hairy a feminist as anybody else and I do very much support women who are having relationship issues. But I have seen some double standards on here, and in RL.

My (very hairy feminist) mum would not support my brother when he was being abused and this pisses me off to this day when I think about it. If a man had treated me the way she treated him I know my mum would have ranted all night long about it. But my mum just isn't able to criticise a woman no matter what, even when her own son is the one getting taken the piss out of. I accept that is obviously a personal issue in my family and not the fault of anybody here of course!

Following on from that....

I often think of my DBs ex when I'm on here. I know that she is very bright, witty and charismatic. She was great company in fact. If she hadn't abused my DB she'd be the kind of person I'd like as a friend.

But now and then when I read posts from women who sound like her I am naturally sceptical as I have seen it from the other side. I know for a fact that if she came on here and had a moan about my awful brother and how unfair life had been to her, she'd get 100% support. Nobody would think to question it. But anybody who knew her in RL would know it was self serving bullshit.

Of course that goes both ways and the men who moan on here could be a bunch of egotistical fantasists like her, but I just know that her natural wit and ability to get women onside would make it impossible to question her on here.

For all I know, she is on here. God knows she's online enough, mostly flirting with men (oh I'm awful!).

Beb, as others have said, it's more usual for a woman to post a comparatively minor incident. More often than not, her respondents will draw her out for more information. And this often has to be subtle - so some readers may not understand what's happening as the thread develops.

" when I spoke to my family and friends they all said "gosh, you're awful in an argument and so difficult to deal with, he deserves a sainthood for only arguing with you monthly" "

That's what my friends & family said. Not having the benefit of Mumsnet, I listened to them. I was 'awful' in an argument because my reasoning & feelings had been twisted right out of shape by his gaslighting ... and we only argued every few weeks, because in between I was trying to be 'better' and/or he was giving me the silent-sullen treatment. Or out spending hundreds of pounds on private dances.

A quick reminder about the NPD thing: diagnosis is irrelevant. Personality disorders follow remarkably fixed patterns. When you're involved with somebody whose behaviours reflect a PD pattern, it's hard to believe & impossible to describe in a way that 'normal' people can understand. Reading about the behaviour pattern - and seeing that other people have shared your experience - is very liberating. We could call it something else for accuracy, but why bother? It's clear enough when you're living with it.

Like someone else said earlier , if you have lived with abuse , you can usually spot it in the first couple of posts by reading between the lines , there was a thread a while ago about a woman who didnt want sex with her husband because he blackmailed her and was abusive. She was quite clear about this in the first post. People suggested she see a docter , that she needed a patch , she was being unreasonable ect. Nobody raised the issue as to why her husband was doing this , many implied it was his right , and i was accused of being hysterical by suggesting it wasnt ok.

It was only when she posted other stuff that people began to see it , despite the fact she was clear in her first post. She had to repeat again and again and justify herself , it wasnt enough for them that he emotionally abused her and treated her like a toy. She was told repeatedly that she was wrong and actually advised to Suck it up, and lie back and think of England while her husband fucked her against her wishes.

So really , theres another side to this discussion , i often see abusive behaviour minimized and accepted by other women , and that worrys me more than anything.

It's a bit like the perenial troll conundrum.

People come on and post about some crazy scenario that may or may not be true. People spot inconsistencies and pull up the OP and try to warn ppeople against getting drawn in.

The counter argument to that is ok, maybe it doesn't matter if this person is a troll, if we take what they are saying at face value and offer advice maybe it will help someone else.

If the female poster is posting a totally skewed version of reality then so what? we can only go on the information that we are given. For every scenario that isn't quite true there will be another woman reading who is in dire need of realising that she needs to leave.

and if someone posts and says I hate him - he made me pay for my own chips - well maybe she should leave him - for reasons other than the chips...or maybe she shouldn't and further posting will reveal that he is a great guy with a secret chip phobia and they will live happily ever after...

Grace, your posts are always fab and I don't seek to question what happened to you as I know how real it was. But the fact is, some women are hideous in an argument. Some women are liars and master manipulators.

Some women can pee down your back and make you apologise for it.

These women do exist, alongside all the appalling men we already know about - the bullies, the abusers, the narcissists.

So sometimes, when it is said of a woman 'god he deserves a medal for putting up with you', it is simply the truth. Surely we all know both men and women who we couldn't bear to be in a relationship with for a milisecond.

Yes, of course, MZ! I was trying to illustrate that Mumsnet offers a different sounding-board, where respondents' objectivity & experience can offer a more realistic view. Others have said the same, better than me - especially Dignified at 15:37. I try to bear in mind, too, that other people will read these threads. Advice given to an OP may help others.

I don't know how long Beb posted for, but it's unlikely everyone would have shouted "Leave!" if she'd gone on to discuss it and it turned out she has shocking PMT ...

I find the relationships board so interesting to read because I am in a happy marriage. I am grateful everyday for my DH and our marriage (my second, his first) and also, when postings about affairs come up, it reinforces the importance of keeping our marriage strong.

Some people say " Leave him " in response to everything , i think its often light hearted , ie

" My husband didnt put the bin out "
" Leave him "!

I do think that the balance on MN is skewed a bit towards the feminist viewpoint. But that's a good thing, because fuck all else is. Every other discussion or commentary in society is about mamking relationship issues the woamn's fault: she needs to suck it up, stop eating so much maybe so she doesn't get fat, learn not to 'provoke' him, spend lots of money on clothes and cosmetics etc, etc.
When a woman posts on here that her male partner won't stop pestering for sex and blaming her for not wanting it, that he makes constant comments about other women's bodies, or that he does nothing around the house or fucks up any job she asks him to do round the house, she's probably told a friend or relative and had 'Men, they;re all big babies/bastards' line so it;s really useful for her to hear 'Look, he's being a shit. Having a penis doesn't entitle him to treat you as a fuckhole with cleaning attachments. There's more to a woman's life than servicing a man.'

If every thread in Relationships was just about two people not getting along, I could see the OP's point - and in those cases, I do. OPs are of course one-sided.

The trouble is that SO many of the problems in the relationships that people post about are infidelity and various sorts of abuse, and SO often there's a clear-cut set of things to be done to get those things to stop.

I do take the point that abusive women are more than capable of getting us to believe their side of things (I've met them too)...it's the risk you take reading things on the internet.