Last night DH told me that he is fed up with his job, family life, everything

[cornishblue]

And it wasn't the first time. He has been saying this on and off for years, in between periods of normality.

He is moody, he shouts and the children for the most petty things and sulks regularly. But sometimes he can "put it all to one side" and behave like a good, loving husband and father.

He says he's not about to leave. Part of me wishes he would just go and sort himself out, because I cannot carry on with him like this. But the rest of me is terrified.

This is tough, Cornish, as it does sound as if you haven't yet reached a point where you are willing to let him sink or swim on his own.

I appreciate it is not as simple as that. But if he is not prepared to change anything - and I mean in a positive way - to improve his situation, you are looking at more of the same.

As Einstein defined insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So, you know your DH well, what sort of thing influences him? Is it science, logic, emotional pulls?

If you can figure that out, we might be able to help you devise a plan most likely to persuade him to get the professional help he needs.

cornishblue I actually think you may be me! We have had teh same issues, literally everything you have typed is the same in this house (even down to cycling although he does triathlons so running and swimming) plus the drinking.

However, it has got to a point where he can no longer be civil to me everything was a sarcastic comment or a response to get me to 'bite' and gave a argument. I took the decision to tell him to leave (not what I want but I need to put me and my dd's first and the atmosphere was starting to affect DD1 (she was waking at night an dbeing sick from the stress)I explained that we both love them but at the moment we needed to be apart (dd1 even said she wanted me and 'd'h to be friends like we used to be) He is useless at making decision and even though I knew he wanted to go he wanted me to make the decision so went yesterday, today I have packed up his stuff (will drop at his parents) and phoned tax credits and taken charge. I dont know whether in a few months he will realise what he has lost and even if he has I am not sure I would wnat him back, being alone with the dd's scares me and wasnt anything I ever had planned I wanted us to be a family, however, I cannot force him to be involved.

Sadly its dd1 birthday today (she is 6) so it is a bittersweet day that this time 6 years ago I was so excited to be having my own famuiy and he has thrown it away, I have said I will take them to him on Saturday for the day but DD1 would not speak to him on the phone when he phoned to wish her a happy birthday and she saying she doesnt want to see him but am going to gently persuade her that she does need to spend time with him.

Phew thats a relief to type but I have huge empathy with you and can only say that I know exactly what you are going through

btw this has been going on for about 12-15 months but have finally reached the sink or swim stage and I was sinking and needed to start swimming for me and my dd's

dontdiss - thank you, that is very helpful, as is the website which is spot on.

Isitme - he has a scientific mind so he likes logic and dislikes sentimentality, which is probably why talking therapies don't work. He is an intelligent man and the slightly patronising nature of counselling (as he sees it) stops him opening up.

eandh - God how awful for you you must be ultra stressed. Your poor DD, I hope she has a good birthday despite it all. Well done for taking charge, I hope your DH realises what he's losing and sorts himself out. Will he be living alone or with his parents? Is he planning on getting help?

'he wont go because he feels guilty about abandoning his responsibilities..'

Or because he wants YOU to have this responsibility (of separating) and all the blame.

Or because he knows that his life is good.

Or because he wants to act like martyr.

Or because he enjoys just threatening you that he will leave and seeing you panicking and trying to please him.

Let him go. Let him live in a filthy bedsit, drinking whisky and missing his children's laugh and hugs let alone the clean bedlinen and food.

I used to do this when i was 14-15 years old. I was telling my parents 'i want to leave home, rent, work and take drugs'. My mum was panicking which was making me to say it even more. My dad told me 'you can go' and that shut me up.

Honestly these men sound like teenagers.

Talking therapies are as good as the particular therapist. It really really depends on how good the particular practitioner is. Also, some kinds of therapy are simplistic & yes, patronising.

So I would research this further, if he agrees, and see if he can get some good therapy, or maybe some couples therapy might be a good idea too.

BACP is a good place to start looking. Or maybe BCP. All good therapy organisations have excellent low cost schemes so it needn't cost much. I would avoid the GP personally & I would go down the route of getting direct help (GPs referrals sometimes can take ages).

A good therapist should not be sentimental & sugary, should not be patronising and should not be talking psychobabble. Also, a good therapist will not think it's a matter of just 'changing your thoughts' quickly & in 6 sessions (or whatever) all will be solved. There are no magic solutions, these things take time, afte all, it's taken a lifetime for him to become who he is (the same for all of us)...

I would also urge you again, Cornishblue, to do what you're already considering, get some help for yourself, since you're going through a lot, and since no problem in a family is only the problem of the particular individual, all are involved (in different ways) & all are affected. I repeat what I wrote before, there may be things you can change, even small things, that may help you & may indirectly help him too.

I too think that mnay of the responses have been very veyr harsh.
Dh and I both get bogged down in the drudgerey of life. ds1's behaviour is challenging. dh's job is fragile.
You all say he is making Op's life miserable and insecure.
but his views don't seem that unreasonable to me.

agree with idea that cornish seeks counselling for herself.

and lays it on the line that H needs to seek help in one form or another.

but it does sound like he is dragging cornish into his issues, making excuses for not trying (another, different) counsellor etc.

he seems quite happy to just throw it all away "yes well all right then i will go and drown my sorrows in whiskey and give you half my salary"... it is almost emotional blackmail and puts responsibility on cornish - "well if you say go i will go".

that is not fair.

cornish seeing a therapist may help her to decide what she wants to lay on the line with him...what she wants (not just what she should do for him) .

and even separating doesnt mean he wont /cant be there for his dc.

Cornish, this is ringing a bell with me, and that bell is marked dysthymia. Does that chime with you?

I feel very sad reading this thread as its stirred up what only lies just beneath the surface anyway.

My H was a heavy drinker and on entering midlife became morose and "depressed". In spite of having the sort of life most people would give their eye teeth for on a material and emotional level he remained withdrawn from the dc and I.

I could see with total clarity that years of very heavy drinking and the need for counselling about a past event would have made an enormous difference but very much as has been said he was not prepared to do a single thing towards helping himself and therefore in turn keeping our family together.

After spending a couple of years trying hard to give him space (which he took every iota of)and generally trying to mop up around him and make him happy he told me I was the problem and amidst great shows of emotion he left me and my dc for an ow.

Cornish if he wont do anything further about getting help then maybe its time to ask him to leave however terrifying a decision that may be.

I am sad for my darling dc that their father couldnt be bothered to explore any and every avenue to be happy but I love being free of his angst,entitlement that his state of mind and mood take priority over his family.

Sorry I dont think theres much advice in my post. Dont underestimate how much he is,without necessarily meaning to, draining you and making you live a life that is compromised

I've never heard of dysthymia.

From that description it could be, though he doesn't have all the symptoms listed. If only he would see a doctor...

gettingeasier, how sad for you all. I hope it doesn't come to that for us, but I can see how it could if he (and I) don't have help and support.

Am making an appointment with my GP (for me) and tonight will talk specifics about what to do now with DH.

I hope so too Cornish but after an 8 month rollercoaster ride I am nearly out the other end and my dc are great (13 and 11)and I am at ease and much happier than during the latter years of my marriage.

I hope it goes ok with the GP its important to feel you have done everything possible to keep your marriage intact but also to be able to draw a line at some point.

doesnt matter what it is called does it, unless he seeks treatment eg psychotherapy, antidepressants etc.

and even if he seeks treatment, there may be udnerlying issues that won't change.

however - wilingness to do soemthing about it is first step...

of course, he may decide that leaving you is the only answer anyway.

or you may decide that.

but clearly staying with the status quo wont help anyone - least of all the DCs.

see you are talking about "what to do now with DH" as tho he were your child...he is not your child, and no one can do anything for him unless he wants help because he is an adult...

that is what i came up against. "he is an adult and only he can seek help for himself".

howeever - you can focus on the impact of all this on you and ask GP for referral to NHS counsellor - which may help you untangle it all from your perspective.

you and your DC are your priority - decide what to do yourself (and this may be you issuing an ultimatum) and what your H decides to do then will follow...

Yes, somebody at some point diagnosed me with dysthymia. Didn't help me much to give it a label!

ADs often worked, yes. They're a good start.

Dontdiss - I think there is/can be a big difference between caring for and helping someone, and enabling them to abdicate responsibility for themselves.

Imo this is the crux of the issue. My DH now is hugely caring, supportive and sympathetic. I can talk to him about feeling low and things that are making me anxious.

But somehow he has set the boundaries so well that I know (a) these are my issues and I need to own them as such and (b) nothing gives me an excuse to speak to him or the DC as I wouldn't wish to be spoken to.

Simple as it may sound, it made a big difference when I started imagining to myself how I would feel if DH has said to me what I had just said to him, and in the same tone. The truth was I would have gone ballistic. The penny dropped (one of many).

I'm honestly not belittling depression as an illness - I know it intimately. As I said ADs can really help just to clear the mist. Talking therapies too are really valuable for some people.

"he has a scientific mind so he likes logic and dislikes sentimentality" - sounds like my ex

unsles scientifically proven - he wouldn't try
he'd rather suffer...
and in the process drag everyone around him down

Oh yes and there's always AS - I have a lot of traits.

But again, I couldn't really care less about labels and names for things. Ultimately all I want is to lead as happy a life as possible and to contribute to making it so for those around me.

However, others have found diagnoses for all sorts of things very useful and helpful for making sense of things.

Dame that is a brilliant post. You are spot on about boundaries.

Ok suggestions for this evening - just to think about and then do your own thing , based on him being a problem solver and quite scientific.

Talk to him about depression, explain that antidepressants will not control him to the extent of making him better. They might raise his 'get up and go' enough to help him to make changes for himself.

I would also suggest (and this was the argument that swayed me) that by not seeking help and/or ADs he is not being fair to his kids. They want a Dad to love and care for them - they deserve a dad to love and care for them. I am sorry I do know you deserve more too but I can admit that it was the thought of my children suffering that made me change not my very much loved husband.

You then need to talk about coping mechanisms, he needs to plan some for himself bearing in mind that ADs or other treatment will take a while to work and he may feel worse before he feels better. This is not a quick fix.

Get him to google 'men, depression and coping'. I would perhaps show him the link I posted earlier and maybe even sit with him and help find good information. However he needs to learn from somewhere/someone other than you that alcohol will make him worse in the important short to medium term. He might also like to look at the literature about exercise helping to lift depression.

All this is only the start. If he starts admitting he has a problem (and it sounds like he is beginning to) and starts trying to get to sorted then by all means support him every step of the way. But, be quite clear that you will support him, not do things for him. You can't sort this for him anyway as much as you would love to. This will take a long time and only he can do it.

I can't emphasize enough that ADs are just a lift to get started; they are not the answer. I would add that CBT works well for many men but I think it is way too early for him to consider that right now. On the other hand if offered by GP grab it! It will take ages to organize anyway!

OK, now then. You. You need help and support. You need to know that you and your family are safe from any type of abuse. As someone said earlier depression is not an excuse for being a shit - although it can explain why I am shitty sometimes! .

Tell him in no uncertain terms that you love him and will help him but that you will not allow your family, your children, to suffer along the way. Ask him what he suggests. If he plays the go off with a bottle of whiskey card just tell him how disappointed you are. Don't argue with him, don't offer undying love right there and then, just ask him to think about what is best for him and the family as a whole. Maybe, but only you can judge this, explain that you personally would like to try and support him if he is helping himself. Suggest you both need to think about it. Take the suggestion of him leaving very matter of factly and ask him if he thinks it would be fairer to to the whole family to try and seek help while you are all together first?

Finally, as I said before, the best advice here has been about getting support for yourself, making your life better etc. At the end of the day you clearly love him and want to help but the only things you can change are those you do.

I think you may be close to giving an ultimatum as suggested earlier but as he has only recently (last night?) admitted to depression give him a little leeway yet if you can, safely can, that is.

Sorry this is such an essay, and some of it is badly written and I have to go so it is post as it is or leave it time. I feel strongly about this. Your love for him comes through loud and strong. He is not being fair but then it is not fair that one partner has to carry the load if the other breaks their leg either. Mind you if that person carries on trying to use said leg and does not rest and attend physio as prescribed than I reckon we would all get cranky.

Of course abuse is a different matter but I am not sure from your posts you are quite there yet. You sound very very tired. worried and stressed. I am glad you are going to the GP, I suspect you might benefit from a little help while this works itself out as well.

good advice there from dame and dontdiss.

espec on dealing with his "threats" - it is easy to get caught up in "please dont do that..." - remember it is his choice how to proceed...

I have changed names for this.

It is possible to bring a marriage like this back from the brink. We have three children who were somewhat of a handful for a few years. On top of that we had work, elderley relatives who needed assistance and the usual stuff that makes life almost unbearably difficult at times. Although I was working part time, I was bored, frustrated and my self esteem took a hit. In the meantime, DH was stressed and seemed angry most of the time. His outbursts at me and the kids became more frequent. I sometimes dreaded him coming home and I really didn't know what to do. It seemed our marriage was falling apart.

There was no way he would go for counselling so I went. The most important thing I heard was that families collude with one another to allow bad behaviour to continue. Challenging my husband would have resulted in him becoming even more cross, and so I avoided it and comforted the children afterwards. The counsellor told me that I had to challenge it there and then...every time it happened. She pointed out to me that my husband must have learned this bahaviour from his father (true) and that if I allowed it to continue, my children, particularly my sons, would believe this was acceptable behaviour. This last comment did it for me.

We also talked about DH and the issues that he had to face and I have to say there was one thing we discussed that made me cry, because I immediately saw something I hadn't been able to see before. It seems to me that you love this man and you see some good in him. There may be things that are distressing him that you haven't been able to see. Perhaps discussing things with someone independent may put things more in focus.

Anyway, I started challenging his rages and true to form, it drove him even more ballistic and we had some furious rows (some of them in front of the children (On that point the counsellor told me that it was better for them to see their mother not accepting this bahaviour than it was to see me being compliant).

After the rows, I would explain that his behaviour was hurting us all, that I would continue not to let it go unchallenged and I let him know that I loved him.

It has made a HUGE difference. He rarely loses his temper now, my self esteem has grown, our relationship is more like it was in the beginning and the whole family is much much happier.

One more thing - I think you should be able to go away for the weekend on your own whether the kids like it or not (provided you have someone to care for them, of course). They are old enough to get used to it!! We try to do this once a year and it is a real tonic for our relationship. I am a fully fledged feminist, but I do think that a man who is working really hard in a stressful job needs a break on his own with the woman he loves. Sometimes we need to give them our full attention .

Just my two cents worth....

kismethardy - I like your councellor's advice about challenging bad behaviour...
I think I have made mistake of not doing it as it was upsetting my kids

Wow what a lot of brilliant advice. There is a lot to take in and put into practice but I will be doing my best.

Thank you all so much.

Cornishblue I already feel a huge weight off my shoulders and he has only been gone 'properly' for a day (he has been toing and froing for a few weeks) but it feels so good that I have taken control, he has been texting me things but mainly because he wants a response (silly things about me not letting him see the dd's when we had agreed he would have them Saturday day anyway) My friend said he is being like a 3rd child he wants the attention and obviously since the dd's were born my attention and priorities had to change and be redistributed.

He wanted to see DD1 today and I did ask him not too (she did not want to speak to him when he rang this morning) however he came round, he seemed surprised that I have packed up all of his clothes inclusing his training gear and deposited at his Mums (he said he needed to get some more work shirts)

ALso said as soon as tax credits sorted then I will let him know about money and the way forward, I honestly think he thought I would be moping about pining for him and begging him to come home (I have been upset and found it all very difficult especially as I took the decision to take my wedding ring off for teh time being) I am not saying that we will get back together as at the moment as far as I am concerned I have tried and tried and he took and took and gave nothing back to me or his dd's.

It was such a hard decision and been very hard to carry through but I have threatened it so much in the past and now actually taken the action (note I had to take the action, he couldnt/wouldnt make that decision) I have told my family and although naturally my parents are upset they are being a huge support, in laws are being impartial although MIL does tend to 'molly coddle' him which is how half of these issures have arisen!

Well done eandh, you are obviously doing the right thing for you and your children.

We on the other hand didn't get very far last night.

I told DH about being there to support and help wherever I can provided he is willing to do something to help himself. But he still refuses to see a doctor so the options are limited to him leaving, or him keeping a lid on his anger and frustration - he says he can but I know that will only last until the next time.

So I repeated that he cannot carry on treating the DC like he has so he needs to make changes or at the very least find a strategy for when he feels the anger rising. And that was it really.