statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

[Mummiehunnie]

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

Hi thisis. What you have achieved and come to understand is wonderful. I've read what you said with great interest.

It seems amazing to me how many behaviours are repeated. I am referring to your comments about threats of reporting you to SS. One of the threats I have had from my SF is that he will report my DP for benefit fraud. I got terribly upset - not because it was true but because the idea of my SF doing something like that seemed so nasty towards me - so deliberately hurtful. I asked him to trust me and my choice of partner - we had an awful, tearful argument. He eventually agreed that he wouldn't do this thing, but I felt as if I had been chewed up and spat out at the end of it.

Afterwards, when I told DP about it, he was firstly baffled, and secondly inclined to think I should have just let SF go ahead and report him, seeing as nothing bad could come of it.

So I am coming to see how much of that was about control. By threatening me with official reports etc, what he achieved was to get me upset and pleading with him. Effectively, he put himself in a position of king-like power - i.e. he could be beneficent and agree not to report DP, which gave him a sense of having the whip-hand of me. And of course, it wasn't an empty threat - I know he is capable of such a thing.

Mum and I have referred to his behaviour in terms of a game - in that his threats and comments are like throws of the dice - he is gambling on the effect they will have.

What gets me is that sometimes I find it so hard to see what effect he wants to produce - other than hurt and upset. What is his aim? What does he want?

Power, because they are powerless, control because they are out of control. For whatever reason. And the reasons are for them, and them alone to discover.

This is the difference.

I came here seeking help, I didn't want it to be the way it was anymore. And that was the first thing that made the authorities know that it wasn't me.

They had me believing that I was mad. I was gaslighted to stunnning proportions, told that "people knew the real me".

So I went to the gp, I asked for a referral, got one very quickly. My first assessment was very positive. My mother said she was going to ring them to tell tham that whatever I had said was a lie. That they only had "my side of the story". I didn't realise at the time, but looking back it's sreamingly obvious. Who is the loony> Me for seeking help, or my mother for wanting the world to believe that I was mad, bad and dangerous to know, with my sisters and ex h all in tow behind her.

Now, from the outside looking in, it's screamingly obvious to ANYONE, not just mh professionals, that a normal mother simply doesn't behave like that.

I spoke to children's services myself, they have advised me to keep my children away from my family. They don't do that very often. And when I was threatened with being "reported" again, I said that I had already spoken to them and to "bring it on". It sounded brave, but I was in bits, terrified, utterly terrified, never really knowing if it was actually me.

It's not. It never was.

I am, as a consequence to this, one of the sanest, strongest people I know, and when she said that, (as a criticism), I "would fight to the last drop of blood" for my kids, she was right. I will, I did, and they know it too. My kids know they are worth fighting for, because I did.

Wordweaver, thanks for your comments. It's really helpful to hear another's take on things - as you said, words are powerful: sometimes a particular use of words can open new doors :)

Do you feel your SF is gambling, or is he certain of his outcome (chaos, drama, etc)? As you and your Mum experience it as gambling, that gives you all of the power in a way, doesn't it? If his outcome is your response - what happens when you fail to provide the drama, etc?

I agree with your DH. There's no fraud, so the 'threat' was no threat. This means, I imagine, that what he really threatened was your illusion of him as a decent, caring parent. That's what you reacted to.

What happens if you call him on it?

I like your inner diamond, thisis! After reading your post, I had a look for one of my own but found, instead, something I spontaneously visualised in my early twenties - a core of finest steel encased in thick, soft, black velvet. (I suppose I'd recently heard the expression "Steel hand in a velvet glove".) A therapist queried whether this represents an impenetrable core - cold, hard defences dressed up as soft & gentle. I don't know. I don't even know whether a cold, hard core is necessarily a bad thing! A diamond certainly sounds prettier

Think I might leave this one to deal with itself: thank you for the lovely image. x

i have been out of the link for too long, this thread is really moving, it is nice to see that you are all gaining so much from the thread and nice to see old names, grace have you chnaged your name again?

thisis I can identify with what you say about feeling as if it's you who is the mad one. I am lucky in so many ways - not least that I have my mum to share things with - someone else who knows exactly what he's like. I am so glad for you that you have come to see your mother from the outside, as it were - your phrase 'a normal mother simply doesn't behave like that' says so much.

Grace, yes, I do think that he is gambling - gambling to try to get his way. His ideal outcome would be for him to get his way in everything - for me to live my life in a way he approved and to listen wonderingly to him as if to an oracle. He likes nothing better than giving advice!

You asked what happens when we fail to provide the drama. The answer is that I don't know. It can sometimes be that he retreats into himself and says no more about it. But there have been times when it has just made him 'up the ante' and do or say something that does elicit a response.

Your words have really helped me - about my 'illusion of him as a decent, caring parent'. That is probably the truth; despite all evidence to the contrary I suppose I still hope that he will 'come round'. Intellectually I know that it's fruitless, but emotionally it's very hard to let go of, for some reason. I think that is an area I need to change the way I think.

In many ways I have already removed myself from his company and put protection in place. I see him once a week for about an hour. I used to go to his house and stay over - we'd play a board game or watch TV or something - because I knew he was lonely and needed company. But that began to be more damaging to me than helpful to him, so I stopped and now we just meet in his local pub on the day when he goes there anyway.

In fact, that brings up something that I would like to ask those people who have more knowledge of PD - if a chronic unwillingness to put effort in is a symptom.

SF is unwilling to put any effort in when it comes to personal relationships. He may want something very much - a better relationship with his son for example. He would get upset about that, be heartbroken about the past issues that had resulted in estrangement. BUT he was not willing to do anything to try to improve that situation. Everyone else has to do the running. Even when his son reappeared in his life, offering him the chance to have a relationship with grandchildren etc, SF accepted it graciously but never made the effort to travel to see them, or rang them. All the running was done by his son. The only thing SF does do is to send them gifts.

Another example would be when my mother left him. He was in a terrible state - genuinely distraught. He acknowledged his part in the breakdown of the relationship and said that he wanted her back. But he wasn't willing to do any of the work needed to make that happen. Mum was - if he had shown any willingness to work at the problems, she would have been keen to try. But he simply wanted her to come back and say it was all a big mistake.

Sorry this is so long. I am finding it really helpful to write this stuff down - I'm not expecting anyone else to wade through it. Hope it's OK to do that - I guess it's a way of unloading. DP listens kindly and intelligently when I need to talk to him about it, but I don't want to go on and on to him - it's not fair. He already thinks SF is more than a bit mad.

I tend to agree with your DH, Wordweaver!
The examples you gave, about SF making no effort (apart from his amateur dramatics), are all to do with emotional relationships. One way of seeing this is that he wants/needs full membership to his fan club - his adoring family - and will go just far enough to manipulate most of you into renewing your membership! My guess is that, if a bit of hysterics fails to manipulate a wayward member, it will still work in so far as the rest of you put pressure on them?

When you think about material benefits that he wants - golf club membership perhaps, or money, or to get away from the consequences of his previous actions - does he get off his backside to make sure his manipulations work?

Lovely to see you back, mummiehunnie! Yes, I've changed it again :)

Grace, I was reading your response to wordweaver, and I can sooooo recognise the description which was so well done, I love it you have to be a member of the fan club, that is Father and ex husband and his mother, feel sorry for themselves like a victim and will do nothing to inconvenience themselves, wanting others to do all the work! After running after people like that most of my life, I don't bother now and I tell kids not to bother about people like that either!

Well Mother and I have had difficulties, it is like training a puppy, to get her to understand boundaries! We fell out as I asked her to not swear around the children, it is at it's worst when she is driving, imagine a woman in her sixties going around sticking her middle finger up, shouting out windows etc at other drivers, playing now I got you with them for errors many make, the children found it hallarious, they had forgotten that other people are like that, they are used to me, making the odd comment if someone is rude, like get over yourself under my breath, or whatever!!! and only rarely, so to have high drama and abuse to them after such a long break was a shock to them!!! I felt I as the parent should have the right to ask someone not to swear like that, she went nuts, apparently I was trying to control her and she would never drive them anywhere again.... I was doubting myself,then realised no I have a right to ask that, she will not stop and monitor and think her behaviour is wrong, she justified it by saying her partner does the same, he makes comments under his breath about errors others make on the road, he does not swear at the slightest indescression, pull down windows and stick his middle finger up as she does, it has been a long term habbit of hers, when I think of it driven from her poor driving ability, the kids commented inthe fact there was no chance you would forget to put on your seat belt with her, as you would go though the windscreen everytime she breaks, she is the sort of driver who leaves accidents in her wake, driving along oblivious.... if you get what I mean, it is like a fairground ride and always was with her, she toook six times to pass her test, she fell out with so many instructors as she did not want them to tell her she was a sharp breaker, and if you fall forward she goes nuts at you and blames you for exagerating to make her look bad, so you are constantly pulling yourself taught when she breaks or slows down!! I had forgotten all of that till the to do with her....

I feel so distant from her emotinally, I want as little as possible to do with her, I can see though that the children prefer me speaking to her, than not!

I wonder if I will ever find any new friends, I can't see many people I want to be friends with, after opening my eyes, so many people have issues, I had not realised you spend life deflecting others projections and issues that they try to push onto you! and it is tireing to wade through their stuff and realise it is their stuff... and also after working on ta, working through boring game conversations is tedious now I know what they are all about! what do you say after Hello?

mh, your description of a trip in grandma's car was hilarious! I think I've been stuck behind her & her brakes a few times I love what your DCs said about seat belts - I'm the same in my mum's car! Driving - and road accidents - is a theme with my family. I've been writing down some observations (I fear one of my brothers is scripted to die in a crash at 69 ) but I'm going to have to space this stuff out: I can't sleep for a couple of days after I've written it!!

I'm following your lead, somewhat, in 'training' my mother. As I haven't got DCs to worry about, though, I'm mainly working on increasing the 'distance' between us. Wish I could translate it into a physical distance - she's only 5 miles away. No longer "popping in" on a daily basis, though

Thanks Grace. Yes, I can see what you mean about the fan club, although the only people who he can really affect in his circle are my mother and I. We don't put pressure on one another - we are each other's pressure release in a sense.

The weird thing is that I don't think he has any idea that she and I communicate openly about emotional things, which is very odd considering he knows us. So any attempt he has ever made to put a wedge between Mum and I has failed.

He certainly makes things happen when he wants them to. He books himself off on holiday, for example, doesn't expect the holiday to magically happen.

The questions I am asking myself are all about how I deal with him and protect myself. DP thinks that I should just mention him (DP) in the conversations I have with SF, and if SF gets 'funny' just ignore it. I find it very hard to explain to DP how hard that is.

SF has this way about him that can just freeze me in my tracks - it's a look in his eyes, a tone of his voice. At that moment I would do anything to avoid it carrying on - it's frightening to me.

Believe me, I know this is irrational, I'm in my thirties for God's sake. It makes me feel as if I'm shaking inside. He'll then snap something out - either a question or a statement. If it's the latter, it'll be something fairly vindictive that will leave me reeling as if from a blow. If it's a question, I seem to have no ability to get away from it.

Not answering him is tantamount to an answer as far as he's concerned, because he will make one up. I haven't yet found a phrase or method that will stop him attacking. I really do just seem to freeze at those moments and turn into a ten year old.

And outsiders can't understand it, because they never see that side of him. They see a rather weak, pitiable man. I see that too - just not at the crucial moments.

Maybe that's the point - I have to reflect it back at him. Instead of stammering and trying to think of a suitable answer, I say 'I'm so sorry that you feel the need to speak to me like this.' Or something like that!

It all comes down to changing the way I operate around him.

Mummiehunnie, your comment about 'friends' who make you wade through their stuff reminded me of that Victoria Wood song 'I Don't Care' . I know it's not exactly what you were saying, but it can be a bit of light relief in moments of stress caused by others!

But truly I do think there are plenty of people out there who don't do that and who do make great friends.

hi wordweaver!

love victoria wood, not farmiliar with that song though!

Regarding your family, it is so hard, I went no contact (thinking it was going to be forever at the time, with a possibility that one day things may improve for the first few months, then giving up and thinking it was forever!) I have found it hard to do the retraining thing, well more showing my boundaries and those of the children!

I did notice mother wanted to go back to close relationship, I have been withheld, and she now does all the running, her partner has taken his son on holiday for two weeks, so she is setting me up as she will be missing her strokes from him, he had to take up the slack of my strokes when we were no contact, she will be a challenge when he is on holiday!

I have not read much back Word, are you in counselling? have you discussed this in counselling? It is a very long process to get to the point where you adult can work this out with healthy boundaries, as you have no idea coming from dysfunctional folk what is normal, as it is the abnormal who you are attracted to and attracted to in relationships as an adult, lots of unlearning and relearning, and it takes more than a few months!

Hi mummiehunnie,

No, not in counselling. Not at all opposed to it in principle and have had a couple of sessions in the past - I know how useful it can be. But in this instance I don't feel it's necessary.

I have a brilliant relationship with my mother who is really insightful and open and understanding. My childhood was happy and although SF obviously had an influence, I don't think that his influence was anywhere near strong enough to have given me a dysfunctional view of 'normal', so to speak. My DP is a lovely, kind, sane man who is massively supportive - although admittedly bemused by SF as he says he has never known anyone quite like him.

I am very, very lucky - and felt rather a fraud for coming on here about issues with SF when I have such a great mother etc!

But SF does cause me upset and confusion, and I suppose his attitude to DP has made me see that there are even more storms brewing. We've had a relatively calm few years since the last major bombshell (he pretended to us that he was dying of cancer after Mum left him). Now I am with DP it's got all SF's bees buzzing furiously.

I can see that any further development in my relationship with DP will trigger another explosion of some sort. Whatever that might be - buying a house together, having a baby, getting married for example - I want to have done the work beforehand, so that when SF next erupts I am not caught off-balance.

Everything I have been reading about PD and what you and others have said on MN has already been massively helpful. Even just having little phrases ready to say will help.

thanks for the link x

Wow! perfect mother!! luck you!!

I went to have my final assessment with the psychologist, and some very interesting things came out of it, we are going to have some therapy sessions to be sorted to work on building me up, and stop me self destructing (diet and relationships) scary, I just hope that me and the children will end up better for this, as apparently from examples I gave I am good at recognising signs now, however when we delved into some of my handlings with acquantances there is still that lack of self respect for my boundaries!!

I think your children are very very lucky to have a mother who is so intent on providing the best example she can for them. It's shiningly obvious how much they mean to you.

Hi everyone

It is so long since I posted on here so I don't know everyone's story. I used to post a lot and be quite involved so I feel bad just wading in with my stuff.

It is a long story which I can't face describing but to cut it short I had abusive adoptive parents. After years of turmoil and rocky relations I sent them a letter. My adoptive father cut me out of his life. I saw them at a family wedding for the first time a few weeks back and went up, looked him in the eye and said hello. I wanted to be adult, mature and to show I am not scared of him anymore. My dh shook his hand. He then refused to make eye contact or speak for the rest of the day.

I was okay about this, I have a great therapist and dh. To be honest I have felt much better with him out of my life anyway. I recently learnt that he retired and got a good lump sum. What retriggered my anger was money of all things

I am not preoccupied with money and have never asked for nor wanted their money, but for some reason after all their meaness and what I missed out on I just felt angry that they haven't even treated my children or offered to help others in the family. Not even so much as a new toy for my ds who is 4.

They have given me and my family nothing since I got married (and very little before that) and I mean emotional, practical or financial support. Yet they still want the image of wringed doting grandparents

My adoptive mother phoned today and my emotions got the better of me. I had good boundaries in place but today one comment about him ignoring me at the wedding and old wounds were picked at and left to bleed out their ugliness.

I feel drained, guilty, foolish and so alone

I will try and read some recent posts and contribute as I hate to just wade in expect support and not offer any!

So glad this thread is still going and Grace thanks so much for replying to my initial thread it means a lot

I am really pleased you're getting sensible support from therapy and DH, Rose. Given what you went through with your parents, mother and everybody, you've plenty to be proud of right there. Congrats on going to the wedding! Your SF honestly is a dick, isn't he? Not to mention ill-mannered.

So you're upset about the money but it's not really the money? I should think it is pretty damn galling when they want to promote their 'head of loving family' image, but can't be bothered to speak or buy a few gifts for their grandchildren. Does it hurt you because you still harbour hopes of their lie coming true, do you think?

Following some very moving threads in this forum recently, I was going to post some of the better things about my parents. There are people who show nothing but relentless cruelty to their child, however most of us got some good thrown in with the crap. This thread is not a court of law (but see below!) - there's no need to 'prove' your parents Really Were That Bad. Children believe everything they are told & shown by the adults in their lives: we are born that way; it's how we learn. So, for example, a father who tells you constantly that you're beautiful - but never adds "clever", "talented" or "competent" to your assets - can in fact create serious problems in later life. If you believe your only worthwhile quality is your beauty, you're extremely vulnerable to exploitations and that IS your father's fault (and your mother's, for not counteracting his idiocy).

Recovery is about re-parenting yourself, whichever combination of methods you use to do it. It's not about 'blame' in the sense of refusing responsibility for yourself: quite the opposite! Blame is necessary to understand what went wrong - this part of the process is like taking a malfunctioning machine (your family) apart to identify the parts that need to be fixed. The fixing is the real work. It can be lonely. These threads are for mutual support: we all had different childhoods, but we all know what it's like!

So, yeah, my dad taught me to ride a bike and to climb mountains. He taught me critical thinking (ironically), to play chess and how to cheat at poker. He was very witty at times. He beat me up from 18mo to 18yo, slagged off everything I did and caused me to believe I was fat & ugly. My mum, who was also regularly beaten & vilified, taught me how to cook and do artwork, had me reading and writing by 3yo, and made tremendous efforts with our birthday parties. She neglected us and chose her sex life over her children's welfare. Oh, and they took me to stately homes ...

Below is the 'extended' definition of child abuse from the Crown Prosecution Service website.
Bear in mind, these are offences which may be prosecuted in English law. This isn't woolly, "not that bad" stuff ... even though your parents made you think it is.

Definition of Child Abuse
"Abuse and neglect are forms of maltreatment of a child. Somebody may abuse or neglect a child by inflicting harm, or by failing to act to prevent harm. Children may be abused in a family or in an institutional or community setting, by those known to them or, more rarely, by a stranger. They may be abused by an adult or adults, or another child or children."

Physical abuse
Physical abuse may involve hitting, shaking, throwing, poisoning, burning or scalding, drowning, suffocating, or otherwise causing physical harm to a child.
Physical harm may also be caused when a parent or carer fabricates the symptoms of, or deliberately induces, illness in a child.

Emotional abuse
Emotional abuse is the persistent emotional maltreatment of a child such as to cause severe and persistent adverse effects on the child's emotional development.
It may involve conveying to children that they are worthless or unloved, inadequate, or valued only insofar as they meet the needs of another person.
It may feature age or developmentally inappropriate expectations being imposed on children. These may include interactions that are beyond the child's developmental capability, as well as overprotection and limitation of exploration and learning, or preventing the child participating in normal social interaction.
It may involve seeing or hearing the ill-treatment of another.
It may involve serious bullying, causing children frequently to feel frightened or in danger, or the exploitation or corruption of children.
Some level of emotional abuse is involved in all types of maltreatment of a child, though it may occur alone.

Sexual abuse
Sexual abuse involves forcing or enticing a child or young person to take part in sexual activities, including prostitution, whether or not the child is aware of what is happening.
The activities may involve physical contact, including penetrative (e.g. rape. buggery or oral sex) or non-penetrative acts.
They may include non-contact activities, such as involving children in looking at, or in the production of, sexual online images, watching sexual activities, or encouraging children to behave in sexually inappropriate ways.

Neglect
Neglect is the persistent failure to meet a child's basic physical and/or psychological needs, likely to result in the serious impairment of the child's health or development.
Neglect may occur during pregnancy as a result of maternal substance abuse.
Once a child is born, neglect may involve a parent or carer failing to: provide adequate food, clothing and shelter (including exclusion from home or abandonment); protect a child from physical and emotional harm or danger; ensure adequate supervision (including the use of inadequate care-givers); ensure access to appropriate medical care or treatment.
It may also include neglect of, or unresponsiveness to, a child's emotional needs.

I've been thinking about what Wordweaver said about turning into a ten-year-old. I was massively triggered by an event last week that re-enacted a scenario that happened many years ago. Afterwards I felt I'd reacted to it like a teenager, not someone with decades more experience.
I remember reading somewhere (was it Pete Walker's site?) that people who have suffered abuse don't learn much from experience, or words to that effect. Why?
And having realised that, what can you do to change it?
Last week I knew at the time that I was having an emotional flashback, and knowing that may have made it less intense or maybe shorter, but it was still really, really bad.
And how much can you realistically expect to change on your own? I've read a lot, though of course that isn't always useful, sometimes you're not in the right place to take in what you're reading.
But that's all I can do. In 15 years I've seen four psychiatrists and basically all they knew how to do was to hand out ADs, none of which helped. I've also gone to therapists of various kinds and none of them helped much either. I don't know if I have the optimism or the cash to try more--I'm not in the UK so I have to pay for treatment and medications.

quiddity, psychiatrists are all about drugs, what about a psychologist?

I definatly feel I have changed the way I think, I know I have a way to go, denial is something I don't hold on to as much, I am sure there is a bit to go there also, it feels like the veil has been removed a great deal for me! I do have to relearn some ways of behaviour to benefit me!

Exactly what mummiehunnie said. I also have a long way to go - and have run out of NHS treatment, so am going it alone. Well, not quite alone coz I've got Mumsnet!

I had read most of these books already. I didn't see their relevance & usefulness until AFTER I'd done quite a few years of therapy. You really need the therapist's experienced insight to start understanding yourself. What they do is observe the way you use language (which is a huge problem if you're not both using your native tongue), changes in everything from your tone of voice to your breathing and posture and many other subtle indicators to how you feel about what you're discussing. If they're any good, they then use this to feed it back to you in a different light, and to teach you 'tools' to help yourself. You can't do this on your own - it's a bit like having driving lessons.

There are, however, some very good free tools on the internet for CBT and assertiveness. These can be a temendous help with behavioural & attitude/emotional issues. Not everybody wants or needs to pick themselves apart quite as thoroughly as I did. I have changed fundamentally, and plan to change some more. But I started seeing improvements in 'my world' as soon as I started a CBT-style therapy. A hell of a lot of what happens around you is a response to something you said or did. Becoming moe aware of this is the first - and maybe the most significant - step towards changing for the better.

Good, free, online CBT course: moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome

Assertveness primer

You might also be interested in an introduction to NLP (neuro-linguistic programming)

Grace, I do think that you do continually have to revisit the books, as you will get more and more from them as time goes along, i do plan to buy some of the suggested books on here, I do also think you can become too entrenched in all the therapy stuff and you need to be in the here and now and enjoy life as it is!

After the last assessment session, i am loooking into being less cautious and scared and thinking of buying a new bed, I need one, the old one was the marital bed, superking size and full of wee stains, the kids wet it when ex left and they were sleeping with me, they like myself regardless of that took a long time to be dry at night, and thankfully there were night time nappies for them, sadly leaks happened! I deserve better than to sleep on a uine stained bed, that I shared with my ex husband that is a struggle to make with my mobility issues, I am scared of spending the money! I just feel I need a new bed and have wanted one for some time! I also want to replace the children's matresses! they have both been dry for a long time now, I think it is now safe to replace them all!

Back to my scripts. I am the little fucking mermaid. It was my favourite fairy story, and either it was Mum's too, or she selected it to be my favourite. I've just re-read the full version for the first time in 40 years and am gobsmacked!

I love water. I'm not a great swimmer, but love swimming. My favourite escape fantasies are either on or under the sea. My astrological sign is Pisces (fish) and I fit the bill. Pisces people are supposed to have problems with their feet; I have problems with my feet. The little mermaid suffered excruciating pain in her feet.

The mermaid was a keen gardener, as is my mother. I am a gardening-hater, which is just as scripty.

The mermaid not only chose to live in agony for love, she sacrificed her voice for it - so she couldn't tell her prince how she felt and he never knew. The prince married someone else. I remember telling a friend "I'm fed up of being a practice run for men who then go on to marry someone else."

The mermaid's sisters made sacrifices to try & save her from her destiny, but she chose not to do the necessary deed (killing the prince) and died. I am, metaphorically, killing the prince by going over the facts of NPD/abuse until I am convinced that it is NOT my destiny or my fault!

The Little Mermaid is, essentially, a tale about knowing your place. This is a huge fature in my family: we all acknowledge this and its sources, but don't seem very good at addressing it. I haven't worked it out properly yet, either. I will.

Is it possible for a short folk tale to dicate the course of an entire life, or several? You know what, IT BLOODY IS!

How to get 'out of script'? Dunno, but I'm working on it