statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

[Mummiehunnie]

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

I wasnt talking about % responsibility for the abuse I was talking about a % responsibility for an adult relationship.
As two adults you each have a 50-50 responsibility to the relationship.
Im not on here to point a finger of blame at anyone. Why would I? Its not my place.
I see the 50% as a positive thing, because it is what gives each person equal personal power within their relationships if the relationship is healthy.

grace- Thankyou, cant help worrying when you are not around .
Think edna is saying similar at the moment to me!

Hoped I have clarified enough. I wont be on here for a while. Good luck to you all in your journeys.

Actually, for me, it was very scary, but also very liberating that I was responsible. Because then you have the power to change things don't you?

When it first dawned in me that part of the problem was in fact ME, it was horrifying....all those feelings of shame, that maybe I was mad, bad and dangerous to know, as their definitions of me stated, always. But then, I realised that it was incredibly empowering, and something that grown ups do, make coices, define themselves etc. Much in the same way that I like purple, I also like people who are nice to me, and can choose to avoid the ones who are not. ME ME ME.....No one else. With respnsibility comes power.

Making that quantum leap in your head is hard, but very worth it. But I remember feeling sick with self hatred and fear at the thought of it being me. But "me" is the one thing I have control of, and the power to change.

grace.....your latest name change is very positive!!!!

smithfield, thanks for your eminently sensible reply. You are 100% right about allocating responsibility not blame! Thanks for that important reminder :)

I hope you're feeling good enough. Good luck, my love; hope to hear from you again.

thisis - yes, yes, yes

Thank you Smithfield. I am sorry that I misunderstood the intention of your post. Yes, I took my 50% responsibility and said I am losing this relationship now. I guess your word 'loss' confused me. It was a trigger-sorry. Relationships are a web of interlocking dynamics, but the true framework is each individual. It is an important reminder. It has me recall the information from "The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists" and the outdated childhood coping armor that doesn't work well in the adult world. Transform/adapt. I am, as we can see, still working on it. "Eclectic Work In Progress"-that's me.
Sorry, again if my trigger was a trigger for you.

Grace, thanks for your posts too. I am aware that my Middle sister suffered a crappy childhood as I posted recently. It gives understanding as to why or causes. But again, moving to adult mode...these are choices. When I read "Why Does He Do That?" on behalf of my Oldest Sister's angry husband, every page rang bells for Middle Sister's behavior. She does choose to act this way, but I see the context of the un/sub-conscious influences.

In her black and white world, however, I am not betting on her experiencing self-discovery any time soon. I think she is too busy codepending on others to look at herself. I am glad for you that you have hope for your siblings.

Thisishowifeel, yes, I experienced this too. It takes alot of honesty, doesn't it? A big hurdle for me, though, still, is overcoming the brainwashing; that it is ok for me to have this without calling it selfish in the negative, or triggering flashbacks of redicule/dismissiveness. Living in the present is the key, I think. Not yesterday, not tomorrow.

Thank you for your patience, everyone.

SwallowedaFly, silentcat, I hope you are, as Grace says feeling 'good enough', coping, not giving up.

I am finding the flashback coping mechanisms extremely useful.

I drew us all, me the kids, h....and I coloured them in, and I drew lanndscapes...a garden, a beach etc, for them to be in. Over the summer I did princess bluebell too....she is promoted, not just bluebell anymore! Then dd suggested sticking them on loo roll middles so they could stand up. (the wonder child!)

When I have felt the feeling of the flashbacks, I can use my new "dolls" to act out the scenario, and the CHANGE it to anything I want....my wonder child, playing with dolls, that I have made!

I haven't been brave enough to cut out "the wicked witch of the west" yet, she is far too scary, but I will. And when I do, princess bluebell will overcome all her spells!!!! (no prince required)

It may sound daft, but I suppose it is a perfectly valid way for children to deal with things, and as I am tasked with letting bluebell out, it is relevant for me too.

I hope maybe that might help others here. :)

Wow! That's amazing!

I can't draw ... ah, but I can make avatars ...

Thisis-
That's a great idea, and it gives your dd the tools for her future.

I never did play with dolls much when I was little.

I always liked being outside for some reason (flight?). Dad always liked being outside or in the workshop, flight for him too I suppose.

Shopping list:
Pajamas for me
Dolls for... family.
Paint for dd2's room.

Yes....Barbies.:) I was NEVER allowed those.

Small acts of love: This year's 'non-gardening' experiment worked phenomenally well. I've had a very messy, but fascinating, profusion of flowers all summer. Now they're going ballistic, to the point where they're strangling each other & needed cutting down. I harvested a massive box full of flowers, putting jars & vases all over my house. There were still too many, so I gave a big bunch to the woman next door and another to my mum. Love has more value when shared :)

In other news, I'm digging ever deeper into The Meaning Of Me (haha) and am going to need to share it soon. Telling the Feminists about my fairy-story analysis wasn't a resounding success. So I'll post here in a few days, if that's okay. I need to ask mum a couple of things first.

I'm feeling very odd - still painfully tired & achey; still self-doubting, but simultaneously optimistic. Which is weird, as I've recently become obsessed by death. I'm simply trusting that this is my mind processing stuff and am trying to help without interfering: tricky at any time, let alone with your own psyche

Thisis, I did a cartoon of a scene from my childhood. It had dad, mum, me and one of the babies in it. It was quite upsetting. I think I shall follow your lead with artwork, even though I can't draw!

Grace, if it's all going on under the surface, as with your thinking about death, how can you tell when you're processing stuff in a useful way and not just ruminating?

I feel so stuck. I've read so much on here that has made me feel less of a freak, and it's led me to a better understanding--Pete Walker helped me see that what was done to me was worse than I knew, because neglect can be at least as damaging as abuse. So I've been less hard on myself for struggling to do once things that other people do all the time without thinking.

But how do I translate that into changes in RL? These days I've been waking up without that sinking feeling. But some of the effects of my upbringing are a feeling of worthlessnessI still need to be validated by other peopleand terrible social phobia, as a result of which there are very few people in my life.

So no matter how cheery and brave I am first thing in the morning, life is just as solitary and I get discouraged and feel I'm just imagining a change, because there are no tangible results, and I slip back again.

Death is often seen as a positive thing....because it is the clearing of the old to make way of the new. That is a common theme in all kinds of beliefs. Maybe grace you are saying goodbye to the old version of you, as the new, real you emerges?

I have been astounded at the power of my drawings....I can't draw either, but that doen't matter. It seems to be a stunning way of looking at things from a safe vantage point. And being able to take control back too. Just looking at princess bluebell is empowering...I KNOW that that sounds daft, but it's true. I suppose that if the inner child stuff wasn't for real, it would not be available on the NHS would it?

Your garden sounds fantastic...blooming, as are you?

quiddity I think that it is a common theme on all the stately homes threads that people don't realise just how bad it was, and how valid the subsequent pain really is.

This thread and the links to various websites have helped me to grow so fast, and to beging to learn to soothe myself, and validate myself.

In my therapy with Brenda, we often gauged how "solid" I felt. It was only around the 20 to 30% mark, although started creeping up toward the end....now I would put myself on 70%. I don't quite know what I mean by solid, but some people seem to be solid....they are comfy in their own skins and their own decisions....do you know what I mean?

I always hope that the stuff that feels a bit daft will be somehow helpful to others....risking ridicule, because I feel solid enough to :) It's safe here, to "practise".

Whaaay, thisis, 70% solid is amazing :)

You might well be right about the death stuff - like the Tarot card! Death has always been a metaphor for transformation/rebirth so it makes sense in subconscious terms. I woke today with a tentative insight along the lines of "Have I been in Child mode all my life?" After meditating (using an enormous, delicately-shaded, pink & white poppy that's appeared in my random garden as a focus ) - I felt I have been, except when working as a trainer and during sex. Oddly enough (not), my mum told me I would be a teacher when I grew up and that sex is only for adults. So I had instructions to be an adult when teaching or shagging (sometimes both at once, heh.)

This ties in with my thinking that, since my parents were never out of Parent or Child mode, I was required to be an Adult throughout my childhood. Jumping ahead of myself, perhaps the death stuff is about allowing my Adult-acting Child to get some rest, and becoming a fully-formed Adult adult for the first time ever. God, how weird must this look to someone who's just clicked in??!! I'll wait and see, anyway :)

quiddity, it's wonderful that you're waking up in a more serene state. Don't underestimate it! It would seem to show that your lovely, brilliant unconscious mind is processing your daytime thoughts & discoveries about who you are. Even better: that 'who you are' isn't a cause for sinking feelings first thing every day! It's a very good sign. A lot of what Stately Homers do is about learning to love and appreciate ourselves. It's an ongoing process and your inner critic will snipe at you, but just turn down her volume and remind her you HAVE got those great qualities, and DO deserve your own love (and hers, natch).

How do I know my death thoughts aren't 'just ruminating'? Because I've learned how to observe my own thoughts, and to trust my own mind. Imperfectly on both fronts, but hey - it's a process. It took 45 years to get as fucked up as I did, it's going to take a while to fix :)

Grace, Thisishowifeel- note to self: thoughts about death is not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks. I do find that rather liberating (and I am of course not talking about suicidal bearings!).

"Games People Play" came today so I'll be able to read it next week when dh takes dd2 toddler to mil's for the week. I am encouraging my teens to read it too.

So how is the feminism board, Grace? I don't think I have the guts to participate, but maybe I'll give lurking a go. . I guess I would describe myself as believing in equal rights, but then I am not a man hater either. Misfit on that front too. Whatever, I am who I am.

I feel a bit of a fraud for posting on here. But I would appreciate it if someone could point me towards info on the internet - useful links etc.

Upthread someone mentioned people claiming they have incurable cancer as being a well-known behaviour, and I would like to know more about this.

My stepfather has done this - four years ago now, but the ripples are still being felt. He seems to be getting stranger and stranger and I am just at a loss as to how to deal with it any more. He tells lies so easily, it seems. I have come to the conclusion that it's about power and control, or his lack thereof. The less power he feels he has, the more extreme his reaction is likely to be.

But there are so many contradictions and confusions - I don't know anyone else who has the ability to get me so befuddled and stymied. I am trying my best to interact with him in a way that is kind to him and protective for me, and if anyone could direct me to insightful websites I'd be really grateful. I just feel that if he carries on as he is, eventually he will succeed in pushing me away.

Sorry to butt in here - I don't so much have memories from my childhood to process now as I do have problems now that only started because I became an adult with thoughts of my own.

Wordweaver, it is definitely about power and control. Well spotted! Getting you befuddled & stymied is part of the pattern, too - it seems likely he lives in a completely different world (where He Matters, and nobody else does, and where He Is Right and everyone else is wrong!) It's like trying to make yourself understood in English, when the other person only speaks Chinese.

I'll find some links for you later :)
You're not in the wrong place! I didn't have any childhood memories. I suspect that what you say, about your problems only beginning when you became an adult with thoughts of your own, suggests your SF might be a Narcissist or similar - someone whose own emotional development was arrested at an early age, and is therefore incapable of relating to others as an adult.

Thank you so much for your message.

You are spot on about him always being right. I remember he even once admitted to me quite freely that it's one rule for him and anpther for everyone else.

He has issues-a-plenty from his own childhood and interacts far better with children and animals than with other adults. Basically because they don't question him.

Despite the negative sides, I would like to be able to maintain a relationship with him, as he is part of my past and my family. Also because I feel very sad about how lonely he is. However, I'm not prepared to keep maintaining contact no matter what. So I am keen to find ways to cope with him when he's at his worst rather than his best. I cannot change him, but I can hopefully change the way I react to him. And I think that reading more about the possible causes may help. It's worth a shot anyway!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Sorry, I haven't found any specific info for your situation - masses of references to sudden illness, though! It's a classic control mechanism.

Sam Vaknin says Such a parent ... emotionally blackmails the child (by constantly demanding help and imposing chores, claiming to be ill or disabled)
Vaknin is a Narcissist. His information is reliable, though his advice is not! You might like to browse through his website to see what else you recognise about your stepfather.

If you can give your SF a rough 'diagnosis', then search on the pattern that seems to represent him fairly well, you should be able to find info to help you get free of his manipulations (eventually.) I'm pasting from Sam Vaknin, as his summaries are short & pithy:

Each personality disorder has its own form of Narcissistic Supply:

1. HPD (Histrionic PD) ? Sex, seduction, "conquests", flirtation, romance, body-building, demanding physical regime;
2. NPD (Narcissistic PD) ? Adulation, admiration, attention, being feared;
3. BPD (Borderline PD) ? The presence of their mate or partner (they are terrified of abandonment);
4. AsPD (Antisocial PD) ? Money, power, control, fun.

Hopefully somebody will be along to offer more specific help :)

Nice reply, Wordweaver, thank you. Yes, I think finding out more does help - once you've crossed "through the looking glass", it's hard to get other people to comprehend what you're going through! Normal relationship advice doesn't apply, so you need to find out what you're dealing with & go from there.

My mother's getting on in years and is a poisonous piece of work - but really doesn't know it. Rather than cause her additional distress (and guilt for myself), I'm altering my attitude to her. So far, so good - she's on my case less often, and seems more relaxed with me. I need to write more about her soon, but thought you might like to know my "emotional divorce" seems to be progressing! As you say, I find it easier to do the more I understand about the way her mind works.

Rules 1, 2 & 3: Disengage; don't engage; block

Thanks, I will have a thorough look through. But on first glance NPD is closest, although not in every way.

His behaviour seems to worsen when/if it looks as though control is slipping away from him.

The main issue at the moment is his belief that my DP is (and I quote) a liar and a chancer who is only with me because I have a successful job and a mortgage. He laughed mockingly when I said DP is with me because he loves me. He says that DP is fraudulently claiming benefits, and that I know about it and am lying to protect him. He refuses to get to know him (he met him once for about half an hour over a year ago).

My mum recently told him that DP and I are 'planning our lives together' and it seems to have triggered a new set of lies, including trying to convince my mum that he knows something about DP but will not tell her because he has promised ME not to say anything. He has also says that he has 'talked to people' about DP and 'knows things'.

Now, it's all absolutely without a speck of truth.

Both Mum and I are now able to recognise when he's lying, thank goodness. One of the few good things about the cancer debacle was that we can now spot his lies a mile off.

At present I am going along with what he wants, which is to not mention DP when I see SF and just talk about innocuous subjects. I am aware that I am willingly playing along with his fantasy that DP doesn't exist, and it's not an unconsidered decision. I don't want to lose contact with SF because he will be a very lonely man, shut away from the whole world. And I know that if/when it comes to a head, he will 'wash his hands of me' rather than admit that he's lied/been wrong.

Sorry to go on - it's actually therapeutic to write it down. Apart from my mum, no one else of my acquaintance seems to be able to understand. Either they think I should just cut all contact or they try to understand his attitude logically and ask why I can't just make him see the truth. They don't seem to be able to get their heads around the fact that his intelligence and common sense are in thrall to his imagination. He's such a practical, sensible man in many ways, I am sure some of my friends think I must be over-egging it.

I do understand their being confused. God, I'm confused and I've lived alongside it for years.

I suppose that above all, I do feel very very sorry for him.

Thanks Grace, I massively appreciate your words and insights. I will definitely try to understand more about his state of mind and way of looking at the world.

It sounds as if you are making really healthy progress with regards to your mother. I hope that I can achieve that some time too!

Thank you! I'm not sure where I'm at. Too many thoughts keep popping into my head and, once popped, swirling round in there. I've filled a notebook in the past few days - it's useful, but I also feel swamped. I'm not really expecting answers as such, just thought it might be helpful to put it out there ... some of it, anyway.

I remembered a seemingly small incident from my teens. The popular catch-phrase at the time was "I mean ...!" which I'm sure was as annoying as "Whateva" is now. I was telling my parents about some trip or something, that my friends were going on, and for some reason they assumed I was asking for the money to join in. I didn't get a chance to explain until they'd already had a go at me for being greedy, selfish, grasping, etc - I finally managed to yell "I WASN'T ASKING FOR THE MONEY!" loud enough and they stopped. I then said "I mean ...!" and they both piled into me. Probably with physical violence, I don't remember, but I do remember the massive rage from both them at once. When I finally got to ask "What was THAT for?" it turned out they thought I'd accused them of being mean.

What I recall, at that stage, is giving up. It was never going to be about what I meant, or even what I said - only what they perceived and, where I was concerned, that would always be a fault. I now realise, too, that I have a horror of being thought mean (and have, in consequence, given far too much away - materially and emotionally.) Luckily, this sort of realisation is usually enough to make the change! But ... that evening, I understood they knew nothing about me and cared less. I was their "fault".

I've been looking to find my fail script, following Eric Berne. I know Transactional Analysis has moved on a lot since Berne's day but his books have such resonance with me, it seems sensible to use his tools. Trouble is, I've never worked with a 'script analyst' so I'm feeling my way in the dark really. Failures got Dad's attention - with all of us, not just me. I passed six O-levels but he was only interested in the two I failed. I don't think he even asked about my pass grades. He ranted, knocked me about, docked my spending money - and put me on a typing course, which I was to do instead of re-sits. So failure got me attention, and instructions on what to do next. This was true of everything in our family: direction was determined by one's failures, not success. Funnily enough, in my later business life I was very good at critical path analysis

It wasn't enough to 'just fail' though. A failure was only worthwhile if you'd worked hard for it. If you hadn't even tried, there was no noise - just a nasty flow of sarcasm, then finished. And there was no further instruction. So, to get the attention and the next-stage instruction, I had to work hard to fail. This is, absolutely, reflected in the patterns of my work and relationships as an adult. I work hard, I succeed, I start to fail, I quit or get fired, I start again with a new one. I even build in failure insurance, with small misdemeanours & attitude problems that are overlooked during the success period but ensure my ultimate failure.

I must have known Dad considered his parental duties completed after A-levels, because I didn't work at all for them: instead, I worked hard at not working. There was no fuss over the one I failed - and no instruction, either. He just chucked me out. I was, literally, directionless. Strangely enough, my proudest achievement was getting one good grade, despite all the hard-working Not Working! Pride in having failed to fail, after working hard to fail??

I'm frightened of ending up with a scripted fail to my recovery - and I already feel directionless.

Heck, there's loads more. I wasn't aiming for the Longest Post Award! Better save the rest for laters.

I have spent quite a long time this morning reading through various links leading from the info you posted here and on the NPD parents thread. Thank you! It's surprising how helpful it can be to realise that something is abnormal to the extent that there's a name for it.

Your insights about the 'I mean' episode are very moving and powerful. The stand-out incidents from teenage years are very revealing. Your phrase 'piled into me' stood out for me, in that their reaction to being challenged was to attack.

My SF's reaction is generally to get the challenger away from him. Either by walking out of the room himself, or physically removing the other person somehow - shutting a door in their face, trying to pull them out of the house etc.

Either way, it seems that they cannot cope with being challenged - there is an extreme reaction. Is that because they are afraid? Or is it because they see a challenge as tantamount to blasphemy or a crime?

I haven't read anything about 'fail scripts' but what you say about yours is an eye opener. I intend to research more about them.

I think that very often, when we are able to name something for what it is, it loses much of its horror. The power of words, perhaps.

You know, in ancient times, words were considered very powerful. You even had to be careful to whom you told your name, because it was a transfer of power.

I suppose I'm saying that I don't believe, having read your posts, that you will end up with a scripted fail to your recovery as you fear. Because by recognising it, you are already more than halfway towards protecting yourself against it.

I would like to read some useful books but there's quite an array. Would you say that there is one title that is the best starting place? I have seen Lundy Bancroft mentioned several times but wonder if that is more about NPD partners.

I think that that has been the most crucial thing for me, that idea that I am a COMPLETELY separate, different, unique, built from scratch person, that I have spent the last year getting to know.

The fact that I always KNEW, somewhere deep down that it WAS them, not me, has acted as a thing of such solidity, like a diamond (the hardest yet most beautiful thing of all)at the core of my soul, that is ME. no one else. Ages ago, in a meditation group, the leader spoke about such a diamond, and that idea has come back forcefully.

It is nearly a year now since I cut my family out.

I have no regrets. I never want to go back there....to hiding under the sofa, to keeping my mouth shut, to simply nodding at all their nonsense and shrieking chaos. My freedom appears to have set h on the road to something similar too. I now understand why, why we are together, why the sudden change, why the strange behaviour, I get it, he finally told me the truth.

That place was so dark, and this place is light and bright with flowers and laughter.

We spent yesterday afternoon working together on my project. He was helping me, and we laughed until we had tears.

Wordweaver hello.

My mother and sister have personality disorders, somewhere between npd and bpd, a strange concoction of the two.

The damage they cause , especially mother, is extraordinary.
As you can see from my previous post, I have cut them out. This is the second time I have done so, I re established contact for around 18 months, and in that time they nearly destroyed me, my h, threatened to have my children taken away, report me to social services etc etc etc. I have some of this poison in black and white, as emails she sent to my h.
Whe you are on the receiving end of this stuff, you lose balance, don't know which way is up any more.

She is a very sick individual, and I cannot risk myself or my children, being anywhere near her ever again.

She had heart surgery some weeks back. A cousin rang to tell me. My RL friend said...."oh did they find one?" Sadly she appears to have survived. I was truly looking forward to the world being rid of her once and for all. Shocking I know, but these people spread such utter misery, people kucky enough to have never known one, can't ever understand.