statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

[Mummiehunnie]

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

Hi Grace

I was not getting what you said re the bathroom but I understand the analogy now.

Thanks for your post on Wednesday, Grace.
I forgot about the secretarial pool!

I lost a long post last evening to technical gremlin (well, I'm trying to do posts on an iphone) .

Thanks Thisis for
If I am no contact then I exist.

"I exist" is going to replace my current thought-stopper: "No, no, no."

Sorry I can't respond individually right now. Take care swallowedafly, silentcat, pm.
Just don't give up on yourself.

I appreciate your post there, SAF :)
Atilla, I know you're going through your own struggles with toxic family. It's hard and raises a lot of unexpected questions. If there are any of us who haven't felt suffused with anger over these issues, it's only because we haven't got there yet!

So I think everyone here understands anger. Speaking only for myself, I find it quite hard not to feel defensive and/or angry in return, when I read didactic posts on emotional questions. I work hard to find the 'holy grail' of reason & balance, which my upbriging did not teach me. It's an ongoing project and I'm sensitive to the fact that others are at different stages in the same process. Please would you try to listen to the questions asked? In this case, top10 asked something like "How can I handle this issue sensitively and effectively?"

There is a place for hard-line opinions and telling people what to do: the AIBU topic.

Cheers, stuffed :) Isn't it FRUSTRATING when a painstaking, heartfelt post gets lost!!

Hi SAF,

I have deliberately not used the word "should" in any of my recent posts here. You could well infer that from my replies and I am forthright. I am really not telling people what to do (am sorry you feel otherwise). Counsel was sought and I am providing it, it is up to the OP whether she wants to take any of it on board or not and that is entirely her choice.

For what is it worth as well I have not gone no contact either, you assumed wrongly there.

Top10, may I summarise?
It seems we have the following options so far:

1] Specified rules of contact
2] Secret police
3] Cut him out

I guess there must be others! If nothing else, you & DH have got plenty of conversation fodder

:( SAF. Hope you come back before long. I'll miss you.

Returning to my post several days ago, (part of last night's posting disaster)...
When I asked
Does going no contact mean that the toxic ones win?

What I was leaning towards was the feeling/circumstance when the toxic ones slander us no end and we might feel that we have to remain engaged to defend ourselves in the moment. If we stop responding, they lie carte blance and no response means it is true? Of course I know it doesn't make it true, but it is so hard to overcome the slander and character asassination potential...the mega-magnification of the shame that we have been imbibed in all of our lives...upping the ante so to speak.

I say if they lie and there is no response and they think they won, then let them think that (we can't control what they think anyway, obviously). That is they win the battle, but we win the war. We survive, not unscathed obviously. But we survive with hope to heal, motivation to change, and metaphysical boundaries to protect ourselves from them (and others like them) forever.

I also think a great obstacle in going no contact is a form of separation anxiety associated with our experiences of abandonment by our parent/s when we were youngsters. It feels like we are abandoning them, how could we (!?) when we know how awful the effects are...but it also feels like we are abandoning ourselves in a round-about way. We will fight self-abandonment to the end of course, as we claw for any sort of acknowledgement or kindness. But we are shackled by the God given presumption that we would/should/could get such acknowledgment from our family of origin. It is not a given. And we can get acknowledgment elsewhere.

Hi Top10, I didn't mean to not acknowledge you .

IMHO, You have to go with your gut feeling. Please please please do not discount or degrade your gut feeling because it might 'hurt someone's feelings'. I find it hard to comprehend why fil's feelings are so critically relevant anyway. They shouldn't be...hardly relevant at all. The dc come first and in these circumstances you'd never be accused of being too precious. (Not that there is anything wrong with that). I agree with Attila's line on not giving family members more 'forgiveness' than we would non-family members. That simply does not compute.

Does fil live near by? Or are you talking about contact 3 or 4 times a year? Sorry if that info was already stated.

If contact can not be innocently avoided (schedules do fill up ), I would prefer the secret police strategy to start. If any alarms materialize then perhaps announce the rules. But announcing rules seems a bit childish to me-it just kind of rankles -maybe childish isn't the right word.

The 'rules made to be broken' scenario comes to my mind too...
Like my NPD sister taking her sensitive purebred doggie to a bar-b-que and announcing that he is not to have any human food. Guess what-blokes were lined up feeding the pooch.

Or, you could find a news item about child abuse and just casually be in conversation with whoever within his hearing and say quite vehemently the tortourous punishments you'd inflict on anyone who inappropriately touched any child of yours. Then perhaps look at him and say, "Fil, don't you agree?"
Watch his reaction, it would be rather telling if his thoughts ran in that vein.

It is a difficult dilemma. It is nice that your dh is listening to your concerns, but if he is wishy washy about it then it falls to you to be your dc's last line of defense. Please be clear on that point.

Yesterday was dd's birthday, it was lovely. Ended up with my friends sitting round my table, with the kids running riot around the house, and h joining in.....laughing too!!!!!!!!

Lots to catch up here!!!!

PM I have been nc for one year in October. I do not feel that anyone has "won" except myself. I am free of their weirdness, I am learning and growing. The longer it goes on, the more I drink in my freedom to be me, with total relish.

I am in touch with cousins on my late dad's side. His family were aware of my mothers affairs, and how hurt my dad was, so that helps them to understand.

I don't care what they say about me...they are convinced that I am posessed and "should be stopped". It doesn't matter, I KNOW now, that it is them with the problem...not me. I've heard all the have to say in their condemnation of me, I don't choose to hear it anymore...they are invalid, invisible....gone. They have a new scapegoat now, and I pity her, and hope she will find freedom one day.

And I breathe a sigh of relief that my children are safe from that horror too.

Hello top10.

I don't have much to add to what has been said, but I think that the stealth approach is the most practical. It depends on how often FIL would see your baby.

I would heartilly echo the use of intuition and instinct.....these are new found for me, and I am stunned at their power and efficacy!

Thanks all for the responses. Sorry my post seemed to spark a bit of a ding dong... not at all what I intended to happen....

Grace - I think you are right about the three "options".

To be honest, I just don't think DH is in a place where no contact is an option for our family right now. He may be one day, but not now. I don't think this is something I can unilaterally enforce.

It is not just about hurting FIL's feelings (and beleive me, I personally couldn't care less about that really), its more because all of my and DH's concernerns about his father towards children are based pretty much 100% on instinct and gut feelings. Its becasue of how DH and his sister felt and how DH felt when he saw his father touching his halfsister's thigh (and lets be honest, a father is more than allowed to touch the thigh of his own child - most fathers do it totally innocently all the time when they pick up their child, change the nappy etc etc, it was just that DH, at 15, felt that something wasn't right). Both DH and I however 100% trust DH's instinct in this instance. I don't doubt that if DH had a bad gut feeling, it was for a reason. I think the "greyness" of the situation is centred around this really. There is no way we could (or should) "report" FIL because DH had a creepy feeling as a child. And in the same way, for now, I don't think DH is prepared to cut out his father from his life tiotally becasue of these feelings.

However, what we can do is respect DH's instinct and protect our DCs (agree - this is the most important thing). Also, if I or DH felt that anything were "escalating" (i.e. FIL was getting weirder), I think we would consider no contact then.

And of course, if it got to the stage where I though our children were in danger and DH disagreed, I am sure that I would put the children first. I know that DH would ultimitely understand.

The whole finger up DH's bum when he was in his 20s is totally different of course - that was definite, but it wasn't towards a child....

Thanks again for all the responses and sorry that things got heated.

Just popped in to say hello

Thanks for your nice reply, top10. Good luck with everything!

Atilla often posts valuable advice in this forum. Rigidly-held views and a bossy tendency can be just what a person needs sometimes. In a thread populated by people who are trying to recover from a life defined by rigidly bossy adults, however, it's an inappropriate approach. If you're reading this, Atilla, you did use the word 'should' liberally while insisting you hadn't, and you extrapolated a situation to find a crime where there was none. That's distressingly close to gaslighting.

We all make mistakes - in fact, Stately Homers are particularly likely to make this kind of mistake, due to our upbringing. We're here to notice such things and to learn how to correct them. It would be nice if you could acknowledge yours just now.

If I did anything similar, I would like someone to point it out please! I'm still learning ...

thisis, at your happy, dancing post! And at H joining in - around other people.

stuffed, I agree with you - let them think they win if that's what it takes. They're always going to paint their world in their own colours anyway. When we no longer care what they think, we really are winning aren't we?!

SAF, hope you feel able to post again. x

finerthings, hello!

Hi Thefinerthings,
Hi Grace and Attila- hope you are doing well today.

The Pete Walker articles were very helpful to me. Another point I noticed in me was about inflexibility. For me, and I said this about myself many times over many years, "I have one gear". The context was exercising-all out or not at all. But I realize that it applies to my rigid world view of negativity and cynical expectations of others. Oh, how I can recommend solitude to myself! Especially when I accuse others of recommending solitude-hello-look in the mirror. I can only take so much self-awareness at a time! If humiliation were lethal, I'd be dead 10k times.

In the count to ten strategy of giving my civilized brain a chance to engage over the reptile reflexive brain, I can have a positive outlook in choosing which new gear I can try...because this is now, that (all the childhood crap) was then.

I have been having floods of flashbacks in the past few days-since reading Pete Walker? Does a new set of tools trigger reassessments in desperate attempts to crawl out of this hole? It feels like it. Not that I am manageing them any better-the rigid schedule of the play back tape, on and on. That was then, this is now; Brain, listen up! We are going quilting. Geometry, colors, yardage, sewing.

Thisis, I'm glad for you that your dd's birthday went well. Happy energy oozes from your post.

Hi Grace,

I respect your opinion and your right to express it; please also respect my right to what are perhaps my rigidly held views here to express them.

Maybe my eyes hurt a bit today but I still cannot see where I have used the word "should" (actually that precise word, not an implied meaning stating it) anywhere in my recent posts. I actively try to avoid using it. If I have used that precise word anywhere in the last 3 or 4 posts I fully apologise now because I did not mean to use it. We all make mistakes as you rightly point out and this is another of mine to add to the mountain of them I already have!:).

I think I am a bit further along the process re toxic parents/inlaws than some of you are and I actually think this is true. I do feel a lot better these days and don't feel always like I am not waving but drowning. This is in part due to reading along with the help and support that some MN people (who will remain nameless) here have given me over the past several years I have been on this site.

I am truly sorry if I have upset anyone with my views. They are held for good reason mind you.

Have a good weekend

A

I will now leave this thread and not come back to it.

I am going to leave this thread now and not ever come back to it.

I have reconsidered not coming back to this thread, I wrote that below the letter A because I was cross but I, miss bossy have calmed down a bit now:).

Okay I have had a further look and I have used the word should twice.

However, one was as part of a question i.e "Why should family members have to police their own abusive relations in such a manner?".

The sexual assualt on the OP's DH by his Dad went unreported. His choice not to report it of course but if it went unreported the accused has got away with it. No consequences for their actions.

Hi Attila,
I am glad that you reconsidered. You are one of the posters who has helped me discover/recover my truth. Thank you, sincerely thank you so much.

I have not read the past year, year and half or so on stately homes. Some of the stories simply depress me so I monitor myself. And there are positive times to stay off-more 'me' time (but MN time is 'me' time...but you know what I mean ).

I personally didn't see anything wrong with what you wrote to Top10. Some issues are debatable. You are an effective debater. The subject here can be very raw, as I feel it is for you, and perhaps you suffered a trigger. I do not blame you for your well developed reasoning. It is a viewpoint developed from your life experiences, thus valid. As are other's perspectives.

The reason I like Mumsnet over an American alternative (yes, I am a yank) is that discussions can be- nay, are personal, in depth on serious subjects. An other website was all superficial, "Oh I'm sorry you had a bad day" sum total...and that was it on every thread- any subject. "How cute" "Glad you had a good time" "Wow, she was out of line". Even though I am a yank, and sometimes feel (not justifiably I know ) that my posts are sometimes kind of skipped over, I will still prefer MN.

And I know I do sound preachy, and God! another long post from TMSB...that girl has got to get going on her identity do something else for a few minutes.

Take care ((hugs))

I had a flashback yesterday evening.....and I dealt with it.
I had a trigger, I was invisible and small and didn't exist. I felt small and very afraid and sick. I recognised it from Pete Walker's articles, and I verbalised it. I acknowledged what it was, and exactly where it had come from, cried, very intensely, but strangely, for not very long. It was very short and very intense.

And then I felt very serene. :)

I went through this with h. He was there, and has read the articles and he held me while I cried.

Then we had a very peaceful and lovely evening together! :)

attilla I too am glad you came back to the thread. You are one person who helped me and directed me towards getting help.
I'm not sure I would have listened had it not been for your directness and absolute honesty. Overall your posts have always been written from the heart.
This thread used to be a place where people were not afraid of being direct.
It seems that in the past year that has changed.
It is too difficult sometimes to monitor and scrutinize every word written and then worry about whether it will be taken in the context intended.
I know some people do not respond to direct responses and we have talked in the previous posts at respecting peoples positions and where they are in the journey but when posters ask for advice and a poster is sidelined for giving it?
Especially a poster as much loved and respected as atilla it makes me feel quite sad.

I try to evaluate the triggers that set me off. I have a tendency to retreat and I need to lose that - but don't know how to. This is an attempt. The past year ties in with my time on Stately Homes: have I contributed to the increased wimpiness you perceive, smithfield? If so, how do you think I might address it? Atilla, I feel pretty arsey about your assertion that you're further along 'the process' and so have clearer vision [than me]. I guess I'd feel better about it if there were less of an "I know best and you're wrong!" air to your responses. This process is not a linear one: isn't it possible some people are further along some parts of it than others? How come you argued so forcefully to top10 for a line of action you haven't taken yourself? What prompted your erroneous need to turn a perfectly valid feeling - the DH's intuition - into a demonstrable crime?

grace In answer to your question yes but not in the way you think.
It began because of particular posts that were not posted by you or anyone else who posts on here. They weren't pleasant and I dont condone them either.
During that time everyone was on edge, and if you remember posters began attacking you grace for being direct, or owning a different opinion. Not your fault but
since then I think we have gone too far the other way.
I feel upset about the way things keep blowing up on here.
I dont feel able to post either for my own support or for others because I feel 'what if I am misconstrued'? And surely enough I have been.

Yes, of course I remember that, smithfield ... I was wondering how much it's impacted on my contributions here. More than I expected, perhaps? It taught me that I was still using back-and-white language even though my thinking had changed. This has been interesting for me: I found it relatively easy to put my views, more accurately, without making pronouncements. (Fewer of them, anyhow!) That episode did, also, teach me to try for more alertness to others' vulnerabilities. Perhaps I've overdone it??
I suspect every Stately Homer has some level of abusive tendencies - fleas and all that :( I'm trying to identify mine, one by one, and to relocate them into contexts where they can be useful instead of destructive. I'd rather stumble through this, than let the threads die again.

I'm sorry you feel upset & distanced, Smithfield. I'm VERY sorry to have contributed to that. Thank you for the challenge!

thisis, thanks to you too, for what you said about flashbacks. I'm trying to be a bit more aware of mine (tricky - I seem to be in permanent flashback ) so wish me luck!

Hi grace,

I have not posted very much recently on this thread and all this is precisely why. Views have become misconstrued. We have indeed gone too far the other way, this is supposed to be a mutual support thread. All views therefore, even if these are disagreed with, are both worthy and of note.

There has been a demonstrable crime committed against Top10s's H by his Dad. Why must we seemingly hide from or cover up inbuilt intuition or feelings that things are not right from others?. We may have been told that we're "useless" or "trouble" and that our feelings are unimportant by parents and or others but this is clearly not so.

I also remember the very unpleasant posts that were posted on here some time back by a troll against someone who came from a toxic family, these posts were truly vicious indeed. Everyone back then too was on edge and differing opinions were not welcomed. I also remember people piling into your posts Grace because you expressed differing opinions.

I have not stated I have clearer vision than anyone else. I have just said I feel further along this process due to reading and support from some MN people who will remain nameless, they have helped me more than they realise.

Top10 and her H have a lot to think about and hopefully they will find a way forward.

Grace

We act as we are made. That is no criticism.