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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

889 replies

Mummiehunnie · 11/08/2010 16:53

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

OP posts:
IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 12:59

I agree with you that you'll need to police FIL's contact with your child/ren but am unsure about the set rules - does DH feel his father will accept this calmly?

I empathise with DH and his sisters. My sibs and I had the same feeling about my dad; I do remember him feeling my sister up, but she has no recollection of it. My SIL never left him alone with her kids but this wasn't stated as a rule, iyswim. I'd probably not have noticed if she hadn't told me. Dad did notice, but nobody made a big deal out of it.

Additionally (and ironically!), we were told as children not to sit on a certain uncle's lap, even if other grown-ups said it was all right.

I truly can't see the patting rule working. Surely he'll only recognise the need for it if he intends to molest a child? In which case, wouldn't he view it as a challenge, rules are made to be broken haha??

swallowedAfly · 26/08/2010 13:36

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IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 14:01

Cool :) I reckon your inner teenager will appreciate that, SAF!
Oooh, there are megabytes of angry ranting against my mother on this here PC Grin

top10 · 26/08/2010 14:03

Thanks If GraceAsks - helpful reply. I wanted to post here rather than elsewhere as I fear that those who have't been in similarly tricky situtaions would just reply with the usual "Oh God, peadophile, string him up, report him" type thing, which I think is not at all what is needed here (and I have considered it).

DH seems to think that FIL will respond ok to the "rules". He seems to think (I think from the incident at the golf course) that FIL knows he is, as FIL would put it, a "bit of a perv" and will accept that the rules are there to allow him to have a relationship with his grandchildren. I am not so sure - FIL's possible reaction is one of the reasons I am not sure DH should approach FIL about this on his own. I think FIL will try to make DH feel guilty and manipulate him by saying that DH is trying to ruin his life etc (FIL is generally v bitter about the way his life has turned out - he lives in his 90 yr old mother's back room and thinks that life has conspired against him - in fact he has left /cheated on every woman he has been with and has managed to lose a lot of money in various dodgy business ventures)...

Re the patting on head/shoulders - I agree this may be unrealistic. I wanted no physical contact and this was DH's idea. The main things I want to prevent are hugging, holding/carrying and sitting on FIL's knee. DH thought a positive rather than a negative would be a better "rule" IYSWIM.

You say your SIL siple made sure she never left her children alone with your dad without having any open "rules" between them. We have considered that but I worry that we would then end up in a situation where one of us is "jumping in" to stop the child sitting on FIL's knee or something like that, which I think would make things tense.

Its so tricky! But I feel we have to take some sort of positive action - imagine if, in 16 years time, our child comes weeping to us sayng he/she feels weird about FIL and is it his/her fault? Or, god forbid, we discover FIL has "dome something". It is mine and DH's responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen, but its obviously complicated by the fact that DH still loves his FIL, despite being very aware of all his faults...

Swallowedafly - know nothing about your background and haven't read this whole thread, but I am really sorry you're not having a good day x

top10 · 26/08/2010 14:05

Not DH's FIL obviously, he still loves his father... (pregnant brain today!)

IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 14:41

Thanks for your nice reply, top10. Yes, there's always a lot of blurry grey in between the black-and-white!!

Going into a bit more detail: SIL had to tell me about her subtle policy because she needed me to help her out: she had four DCs, very close in age. There wasn't any leaping to the rescue, as it were. We just made sure the kids were sufficiently occupied, with judicious distractions now & again. Dad did love to read to them with knee-sitting. SIL would sit next to them with another child on her lap. Her policy has resulted in hundreds of lovely family photos; you'd never guess there was secret policing in the background Grin

This will probably be easier than you think once you have your baby. Distraction and manipulation (of child behaviour) become second nature!

With the dodgy uncle, we were advised to say "I don't feel like sitting on laps today, thank you." This became a bit of a joke with the rellies, who loved asking if we "felt like" a cuddle today. If anybody realised we always said No when uncle was present, it didn't show Wink
Funny how my parents, who had no respect whatsoever for boundaries, were so clever when it came to setting them around the uncle.

IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 14:45

Ah, and good luck! Hope your birth goes smoothly & quickly :)

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 15:07

top10

How would you class a sex abuser if you're suggesting that this man is not such a person?.

Do you think this too was also a factor in his parents actually divorcing?.

Does your DH's mum have any opinion on this matter?.

Do not let the FIL manipulate you and if you do see him you need to see him together. He sounds like a right nasty piece of work to me from what you have written about him. I would avoid him as much as possible, cutting him off from your lives can be done.

Abuse is about power and control. This man wanted that over his children; your DH has remarked that things were not right in contact between him and his Dad. There are an awful lot of red flags here with regards to this FIL of yours. I do not care how infrequently or how long ago such events took place; the fact they took place at all is bad enough. He put a finger up your H's bottom?!. He should have been reported at the time to the authorities. Presumably this was not done due to a combination of shame and embarrassment on your H's part - he was sexually assaulted by his Dad. The truth however painful needs to be confronted and sexual abuse does indeed happen within families, not matter how respectable they are. FIL has got away with an awful lot and for many years now. I sincerely hope your DH's dad has never directly worked with children.

Why is it too "cruel" then that his Dad cannot see his grandchildren?. This man has acted inappropriately sexually on more than one occasion towards his own offspring.

Has this man ever apologised or taken full responsibility for his actions. I think not, he has never shown remorse for what he has done.

I would not let this particular individual have any contact whatsoever with your children. Let your children instead have positive role models.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 15:08

People still love their parents no matter how abusively they have acted towards them.

top10 · 26/08/2010 16:01

Attila - I do understand all your points. At times, I feel like this too! BUT:

  • I don't think it is right or fair for us to say FIL is a sexual abuser when neither DH nor his sister remember any abuse happening to them. They do not remember their father touching them inappropriately as children (and obv do not remember anything further - anything penetrative). They simply remember how they felt about their dad, and, as adults, they think that it was odd for them to have felt like that. When they ask themselves why, they conclude that they must have picked up on inappropriate feelings their father had about them. A sex abuser acts on those feelings. They think their father did not.
  • Re the incident when DH (when he was 15) saw his father touching his halfsister high on the thigh. I agree, this may have been abuse. DH is not sure. He just knows it made him (DH) feel horrible and awkward. TBH, this incident is the most worrying of FIL's actions to me. Hence no sitting on laps etc in our "rules".
  • Re the finger up DH's bottom. First, I know! I was TOTALLY shocked, as was DH (we were married at the time). Yes - this was an assault. DH was however an adult. It was his choice what to do about the incident. There was no way he would report his dad to the authorities. And anyway, to who? The police, I suppose.
  • DH's parents definitely did not split up becasue of any child abuse. It was becasue FIL had a string of affairs. DH and his sister have approached their mum about their feelings. Their mum completely denies that it is possible that they really felt like that as children, let alone that it was FIL's fault. I suspect that it came as a shock to her what DH and his sister were saying and to acknowledge for a second that it might be true would make her feel very guilty as a mother (why didn't she know? what shoud she have done? etc...)

No - FIL has never shown remorse or taken responsibility for his actions, although, as I said, DH seems to think he would accept our "rules".

FIL is very manipulative, you are right. that is why I am concerned about DH broaching this with his father alone. FIL has no chance of manipulating me, believe me. I think he is a tw*t!

If it were me, I would not be in contact with my FIL at all! BUT, it is not just me. My DH is also completely focussed on how we can protect our child/ren, but he is not prepared to have no contact. I come from a lovely, pretty issue-free family, so it is hard for me to understand DH in this sometimes, but I am tryng. Believe me when I say our child/ren and their safety is the top priority for both of us though. That is why we are trying to come up with a workable solution that will protect our child/ren.

We are just trying to do the right thing. Even setting these rules will, i think, really, really upset FIL. Both DH and I agree that that is tough! Children are innocent and FIL is not! This is a consequence of his actions.

I am finding it difficult and confusing tough...

And no - FIL has never worked with children.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 17:06

Top10,

Thank goodness your father in law has never worked with children. He could potentially be still a risk to your children, I don't care how old he is now. Its what he has done previously that is what matters here. He has shown no remorse for his actions at all has he?. That is in itself telling and points to no contact.

He won't accept any rules your H sets, FIL has no idea of boundaries at all. What if FIL breaks the rules or tries to circumnavigate these?. He has proved as much by his inappropriate actions towards his children when younger.

FIL tried something on which was inappropriate with both of his children at the time; his wife, their mother never suspected anything untoward. She likely had no idea her husband was this way inclined and indeed divorced him for other reasons.

Her reaction as per your comment is somewhat disturbing:-
" DH and his sister have approached their mum about their feelings. Their mum completely denies that it is possible that they really felt like that as children, let alone that it was FIL's fault. I suspect that it came as a shock to her what DH and his sister were saying and to acknowledge for a second that it might be true would make her feel very guilty as a mother (why didn't she know? what shoud she have done? etc...)"

It is also quite telling in its own way (and its quite a common reaction as well for children not to be believed and for their feelings to be denied). She did not fully believe them did she, she did not want to believe that her H was capable of doing such things and her reaction is very sad.

As for his father too touching his half sister on the thigh - that was abuse no two ways about it. How can that be otherwise, she certainly did not consent and that poor girl must have been both confused and scared witless.

All this is making you and your DH very uncomfortable now but attempting to bury it, go into disbelief or denial (your H has certainly done that as have you to a lesser extent) and not inform the authorities is not helping anyone, least of all yourselves. Do not make any allowances at all for FIL, he has got away with an awful lot but he should not get away with it now. Sexual abuse and inappropriate touching which is incestuous does happen within families; far more than people realise. It is truly a taboo subject.

How much do you actually know about this FIL in terms of background?. I am referring to his childhood, adolescence and early adulthood here. His past in terms of relationships is not great, you may well find that his early years were also very troubled (he may have been in trouble with the law for instance or showed cruelty to animals from a young age). He may well have been abused himself as a child and was himself a victim of incest but it is no justification or excuse for his future actions.

I do feel for you both actually; you've got to make some tough decisions here but your main priorities are still yourselves and your children. Not this FIL person, at the end of the day he really does not figure or should not figure. Your H's parents divorced so he is really out of your lives now on a day to day basis at least. I think your H is being far too nice and reasonable here to the man who sexually assaulted him, he needs really to talk to a counsellor (BACP are helpful) about all this and the buried issues it has pushed now to the forefront of your relationship.

Your H's primary loyalty is or should be to you his wife and his children.

From what you write about him as well FIL is a real nasty piece of work as well, a toxic and manipulative individual. I think he will tie you both up in knots if you meet him, do not think he cannot manipulate you. Abusers are not stupid at all, they are highly manipulative and plausible individuals (to those in the outside world). He has been allowed to get away with a great deal to date. His sexual assault on your H should have been reported to the authorities; if he had done this to someone else what would have happened then?. That person would certainly have reported your FIL to the police and rightly so. Your H's shame (a misplaced feeling totally) and yes, embarrassment at being assualted stopped him from shopping his Dad. He has probably wondered on many occasions since why on earth he could not or was not able to stop his Dad doing what he did. Your H likely blames himself for being assaulted by his Dad. It may have happened some years ago now but I would still urge you to press charges against this individual. You can still make a complaint and you would be listened to. How else would he be stopped and or properly face the consequences of his actions otherwise?.

Your H should consider too talking to an incest survivors group.

I do not wish to further upset you here but your FIL may well have kept diaries detailing his abuses. A gruesome thought but one that cannot be fully discounted.

Sexual abusers come in all shapes and sizes.
Abuse is about power and control as well.

If you truly want a workable solution to protect your children he has no contact whatsoever with them. Do the right thing by both yourselves and your child. You will both be forever wondering otherwise and figuratively speaking looking over your shoulder. If he met them you could be wondering if he was having any inappropriate thoughts about them. What if he had a camera with him at say Christmas in a restaurant and wanted to take photographs of your children?.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 17:19

Hi Top10

re this comment from your initial post:-

"DH's mother, when DH and his sister ask her about how they feel, simply says no. That can't be right. You father was a good father".

Denial is a powerful force isn;t it - that comment of theirs is proof of that. Again a common reaction to abuse.

No he was not a good father far from it, he was and remains an abusive one. She herself divorced him for being unfaithful and he tried abusive tactics on his children.

Note the denial here; she cannot compute or even begin to comprehend that her ex H was actually capable of doing such things. She cannot do so because that then calls into question her own judgment on choosing men.

BTW is the sister in this comment the same one whose thigh got stroked and your H saw this?.

swallowedAfly · 26/08/2010 17:29

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 17:37

"hmm. there's an awful lot assumed, inferred and projected there. maybe that's inevitable on such an emotive topic".

Perhaps it is but I am only going by the facts which have been presented to me and write my response accordingly. Abuse in all its forms is highly damaging to its victims.

top10 · 26/08/2010 17:41

Its all so difficult, isn't it?

Attila - thanks for such a long response - I will think about all you have said.

And re the sisters - DH has a sister (the one in the comment) and a half sister.

I know that DH's mother's response is a common response to this sort of situation. She is in complete denial of course. DH hasn't pressed her further on this apart from once, when he said that just becasue she doesn't want to believe it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. His mother accepted that I think. But unlike my family, his family tend to shy away from talking about things if they are difficult...

Swallowed - totally agree that all this needs to be reviewed when the baby actually arrives and as it grows up. TBH, I hope that when he actually becomes a father, DH will take a much harder line in his views to his father becasue he will be, I hope, so much more aware of needing to protect his child. I guess I may also start to see things is a less accomodating way. Thankfully, DH and I can and do talk about this a lot, and so I think that, between us, we will work a way through it.

Thanks again for all the input. This kind of thing is difficult to talk about outside mine and DH's relationship (I think that if I asked RL friends for advice, DH would see it as a breach of his confidentiality... he doesn't talk about his father and these issues with many people).

IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 17:47

I did feel you made a lot of assumptions there, Atilla. I just can't see why you say "As for his father too touching his half sister on the thigh - that was abuse no two ways about it. How can that be otherwise, she certainly did not consent." The man had his own four-year-old on his lap. It's not usual for a father to request such ocnsent, is it?

Top10 and her DH are basing their concerns on DH's feelings about his father - which I'm sure we all agree is sensible. Apart from the bizarre golfing incident, however, there is no definite sexual abuse. Inappropriate attitudes, lack of boundaries & respect - yes. From her post, I think top10's DH is right about this in his father and I would want to police his relationship with any children. The situation is almost identical to my SIL's vis-a-vis my father. I believe her approach was wise. The kids have normal family photos with their grandparents and the usual memories: my parents were never allowed an opportunity to exercise their toxicity.

You know, there is enough to work with here already, without exaggerating the facts.

top10 · 26/08/2010 17:52

Thanks Grace

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 18:06

Hi top10

Of course his mother (and sister) is in denial, as you rightly state such responses are often stated in sexual abuse situations.

Your DH understandably would not want to talk to real life friends about this issue - but this does not preclude him talking to a counsellor about it. A counsellor may prove very beneficial for yourselves and your relationship overall. Your DH may well have a lot of anger/rage/fear/shame locked up inside of him because of his Dad and it needs to be dealt with now for his own sake as well as yours. All of those feelings could well magnify when your child is born.

I would still go no contact because then you would not have to review the situation with FIL and baby as child gets older. There would not be any such situation to review. Your FIL is a toxic individual, nothing postive would be added to your child's life here by having FILs presence in it in any way, shape or form. Quite apart from anything else FIL has shown no remorse for his actions at any point and after assaulting your H sexually he stated your DH knew he was a perv!. Oh so he saying that somehow makes it ok then ShockAngry

Do not simply hope that your DH will take a harder line in his views when baby is here as he may well not. Your H has divided loyalties; he still loves his Dad despite what his Dad did to him and his half sister (an abuse your H perhaps was and felt powerless to prevent). People still love their parents despite being abused by them and are often conflicted and torn internally.

BTW does DH's half sister have any contact with his Mum's family nowadays or your own family unit?.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 18:13

Why should family members have to police their own abusive relations in such a manner?.

You would not tolerate such behaviours from a friend or "friend of the family", these family relations should not be treated with kid gloves in my view because it helps no-one in the long run.

swallowedAfly · 26/08/2010 18:22

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 18:22

OP's DH saw this incident as a young man of 15 and it made him feel very uncomfortable watching it. It felt wrong to him. The girl in question was 4 at the time. Abuse is all about power and control.

IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 18:27

Like all relationships, except that of a child to its parent, it's a matter of choice. My SIL wanted to provide a normal family for her children, but didn't trust my parents to be what she considered 'normal' grandparents. Like top10 she couldn't be sure they would misbehave. So she didn't give them a chance to. Additionally, my brother was (and is) in denial about this aspect of M&P's general crapness. SIL didn't have to ride roughshod over his psychology, she simply created a safe environment.

I'm not sure what you mean about tolerating such behaviours from a friend. We all have to tolerate off-colour remarks and the like, sometimes. If children are involved, we try to protect them from what Mr Top10 and his sister experienced: feeling "odd" about an adult. There's more than one way to do it, of course, but calling the police over a sideways look in the bathroom isn't a practical option.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/08/2010 18:42

Hi Grace,

All credit to your SIL indeed but she had to do a lot of hard work over the years to stop your parents from misbehaving as you put it (and they still do). I have read a lot about your toxic parents and yours really take the cake. I am sorry that you had such a life with them as a child and it is to your credit that from your writings you come across as erudite and intelligent.

No-one should though to my mind try and work around abusive behaviours (this is how such things can continue) and that includes from friends as well as family. We can cut friends out, family should be treated the same if they act abusively.

"If children are involved, we try to protect them from what Mr Top10 and his sister experienced: feeling "odd" about an adult.

Of course and any healthy functioning parent would do this.

"There's more than one way to do it, of course"

(hence me suggesting cutting off such abusive people entirely)

"but calling the police over a sideways look in the bathroom isn't a practical option".
Hmm, don't really get that as what you quote here is an obtuse example.

IfGraceAsks · 26/08/2010 18:45

Yes, I wrote the bathroom bit as that reflects one of my Hmm moments with my dad. Realised it wouldn't seem relevant AFTER I'd posted!

swallowedAfly · 26/08/2010 18:49

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