statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

[Mummiehunnie]

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

I don't know, quiddity. My brother's children know, broadly, what his childhood was like. He seems to have drip-fed it in age-appropriate ways, which has to be the best route I should think, but I don't know exactly how iyswim.

It helped that neither he nor his wife were particularly complimentary about my parents when they spoke of them! So the kids wouldn't have felt they couldn't ask, it would have been more like "Why do you say Grandma wasn't a good mother?" (This happened while I was there. We said she was more of a child than a mother - great at playing, but useless at taking care of us.) He hasn't told them how violent Dad was, though. I think he's blocked it out of his own memory. And I think he hit his own DCs. He does rage at them, I've seen it.

Thank you for the lovely reply, pm

You've made a very good point about 'defining the limbo'. Looks like we've given each other food for thought!

Mumsnet Identity Workshop here, 10:30pm Nightly. £2.50 or bring wine.

Pinemartina, I've just realised something. You know we've talked a lot about fairy stories? You haven't read my current 'bible', "What Do You Say After You Say Hello", have you? I think it might help you make sense of some important things. It's also quite a funny read.

It's better if you've already read "Games People Play" but that's not necessary, you'd just know less about some of the games Berne refers to.

Have you got a red coat? I have two - used to be three - all of them chosen by my mother. Spot the fairy story ... You should see how Berne retells it!

Hi Grace,
Those are your parents' expectations brainwashed into you, aren't they? 1960's & 1970's context. And what career would they permit? Teaching, nursing, or librarian?

My point is that it is/was outmoded thinking. That is/was their script. A projection, if you will. You do not need to have a spouse or children to be a valid citizen, man or woman. You exist all by yourself and that is enough, nay "good enough".

And damn it, do what you want when you want. Know what I mean? That's right, guilt free, because that is a perk for the folks without kids- whether they ever existed or not.
Are you sad that you didn't have kids? Are you mad because this pressure from your folks induced you to rebel and not have children? Or did their toxic influence render relationships excessively difficult for you-trusting others, meaningful connections? (sorry, I forgot your history , self-sabotaging my effort to connect with you .

Quid- you could ask an opened question if age appropriate- "do you think grandma is a little strange?"

If there is a current example of difficulty, you could talk about how you would have handled it differently, and perhaps even brainstorm with them for possible "good enough" responses.

Grace, I just finished "Counseling for Toad" which had a reference to "games people play". Thanks for the tips, I will order both this week (wdysaysh).

Pm-I hope you can disconnect emotionally from your toxic people. Does not engaging with them, mean they win?

Can I join the identity parade, too?

Whoo-hoo, stuffed! THANK YOU for the recognition - and the permission!! And for a wry guffaw - yes, teaching (even though I went into business instead, I still managed to build a reputation as a gifted trainer ). Plus, my Dad made me do evening classes in typing as "a woman needs typing for a career" - and insisted I do flower arranging for my Duke of Edinburgh special interest

I'm sad about not having kids, but not despairing by any means. I've done a whole lotta stuff that can't be done when you have children. I have battalions of nieces & nephews, some of whom are really friends' children. I sometimes wonder whether I subconsciously miscarried all my pregnancies so as to break the abuse cycle, but don't go there much as it's all past and couldn't be answered anyway.

You were right first time: scripts, brainwashing, and gaining permission to ignore the 'rules'. Heh, one journey just leads to another, doesn't it? Welcome to the Identity Club!

I love your suggestions to Quid :)

And, currently, I love you. Mwah!

You are all so brilliant. :)

Identity, yes, tricky when you've never been able to define your own. And liking purple is not an identity! Although it is a start.

I had a lovely time yesterday with my friend, being ladies who lunch. Post breakthrough h was home with kids. Another old friend called by randomly too.

It's all so different. and even though it's nice, and the way I want it, the difference left me un-nerved. It's unfamilar and new. I have often likened it to the faces on the Russian soldiers, when the wall came down in Berlin. They lost their identity and raison d'etre at that point too, and were left to be "reborn" on the unter den linden. All by themselves.

This is good though, I know this, it's like Brenda said it would be. Finding out who we are takes time, and gentle patience, whether we are new born, or accessing our true identities for the first time at a later stage.

I couldn't do this if I was still in weird world. The conflict between this emerging butterfly of me would be crushed over and over by the insane definitions and scripts from them. It would be too hard. It's very new and very fragile and must be nurtured in a safe environment.

Not engaging with them means I exist. If that is winning, which I guess it is, then no, they do not win. They lose. They lose knowing the real you!

My ds has worked it out for himself really. He is old enough to be extremely cross about the way he was treated too, and in typical teenage fashion, said to me....."is that why nan always bought me such crap birthday presents?" To which the answer is of course....yes. :)

DD has been told that nan is poorly. full stop.

Grace I have just ordered WDYSAYSH plus several Alice Millar,on fast delivery. I have 24 hrs with just baby from pm tomorrow and will dedicate all me time to reading(when she sleeps,so fairly random,but all mine!)

Funnily enough,my mother did dress me in a red coat - with a big zip ring and fur round the hood ,70's style!But boy clothes underneath!!

Quid my dc were relieved when I finally stopped them going to Granny's following another episode of her ringing me at work demanding I come and take them away as she couldn't cope - they were there from 4-5pm twice a week...It opened the door for them to complain ,initially and as time went on,to ask directly about my parents weirdness.

That was 4 years ago now,and marked my biggest emotional break from them - so far!
These days,rightly or wrongly I am as honest as I can be with them - as is appropriate to their ages re words I use,stuff from past,etc

Really,my parents' behaviour/attitude speaks for itself and has in some ways been "useful" as we have discussions about "healthy" ways to behave and appropriate responses - the opposites to Granny and Grampsie!

toomany On the whole,I am better at remaining emotionally disengaged.Seeing them is irritating and a pain.The nasty scene with xp recently,however,does fester with me - and the dc.
I found myself wondering in the very early hours,whether there is also a passive aggressive,controlling,revenge-type element to my continuing to have any contact with them....?

For example,I will not answer the phone to them,and the dc don't either,for weeks at a time.We listen to m's messages,the words of which are always the same -
"oh,sorry to miss you all,I'm sure you're very busy,but we'd love to see you at some point,when would be convenient?"-
,but with a varying tone that ranges from irritated through martyred ,self pitying,cringing,angry etc
And we laugh,sigh or ignore.

Eventually,she will dangle a carrot - offering to buy all dc's new school shoes (always clarks,a struggle for my budget),or new uniforms,upgrade dd's violin,pay for exam fees,the French trip money etc or announces that she has a bag of new clothes for the girls.

Then we arrange for them to come over.We don't drive over to them,as it takes a chunk out of our time.And we state exactly the time they can come and when they should go - giving inarguable reasons- dentist,health visitor appointment,or ask xh 1 or 2 to call to collect dc's ..or have friends turn up.I arrange for phone calls during their visit,deliveries,anything really.I cut the grass,hoover,paint the ceiling.avoid avoid.
And have deaf ears,so m has to repeat everything.And if I don't like what she says,I ignore.
I remain sickeningly cheerful at all times and give nothing of myself at all.No truths. The dc love this and find it hilarious .They enjoy answering her barbed questions as if they are the Famous Five - " Oh,it was the most perfect camping trip ever ,Granny! We had such fun,we didn't notice the rain!" - that was delivered dead-pan by 8 yr old dd recently.
And they delight in behaving impeccably towards each other,in a syrupy ott way the whole time. "Thank you,ds2,that is so thoughtful,I do love you" etc..

My parents swallow it all with mouths like cats' bums.They can't possibly say a word,or they wouldn't get a further invite/permission.Or far worse they would be opening a potentially emotive or meaningful dialogue - heaven forbid.
Maybe they don't even notice .
Who would know,all they talk about is the weather,or tell us every detail of their lives.
Who cares.

Blimey, thisis. That's the most amazing post.
Thank you especially, from me, for "Finding out who we are takes time, and gentle patience, whether we are new born, or accessing our true identities for the first time" - and "Not engaging with them means I exist."

After reading what you said about identity, I've just made sense of the inertia that swamps me when I move into a new place. I remember the first time it happened - post divorce#1. I couldn't make sense of it: I can style a renovation project successfully with barely a second thought, but when it's my home I'm paralysed. Now I recall slumping on the floor of that flat, despairing over all its possibilities. The thoughts going through my mind were of the impression each idea would make on other people. I see, now, where the despair came from: I wanted to style it for myself, not visitors - and hadn't a clue!
OK, I have got more of a clue these days, but still feel paralysed. Time for a rethink :) Thanks.

People need to stay in their 'known universe' unless they've chosen, like us, to fly out of it and view from a different perspective. As we know, flying out is hard work so it's not surprising most don't bother.

There was a family in MIL#2's village, who were the popular & important focus of community events. The father was one of those genial, larger-than-life chaps that everybody loves. Their teenage daughter was a rude, ill-tempered girl, usually turned out as Tarty Goth, who'd been running away from home since she was nine. Everybody loathed her - ungrateful, blah, blah. I gently suggested that maybe her Daddy wasn't quite as nice at home as outdoors. As MIL knew his wife very well, she roundly told me he was a lovely husband/father and I was too cynical. I'd been thinking, I said, rather that perhaps he was -umm, too interested in the daughter. Shock, horror! How could I think, etc, etc ... The girl had always been horrible, that's that.

Later, a support worker was allocated to the girl and, soon after, she was removed from the family and village - I don't know where to. I was told she'd "been sent" to boarding school. She didn't come home for holidays. I hope she feels better now. Nobody was forced to rethink their story: the man's still lovely; the girl's still got 'something wrong with her' ... and everybody's fine

His wife divorced him.

Thank you grace, but credit must go to Brenda for that.

I believe I have had amazing therapists in the last twelve months. I am not grateful to my family for convincing me that I was mad, bad and dangerous to know, but I am to the universe/ NHS for providing such amazing help.

thisis how long have you been NC with your P's? Are there any members of your family who you do see/have a positive relationship with?

Hope you don't mind such direct questions!
I have identified a lot with your feelings towards your h ,and admire how you are doing so well with self discovery and development.
Recent difficult stuff with your holidays doesn't seem to have dented that!

I am really fearful of going NC forever with my family.But I just can't pin down why.

I am really disturbed by the connections I am making between my attachment to xp and my parents approval;his behaviour being so similar to both sides of theirs,and his relationship with them.And my continuing to feel concern and sadness for him.

They bullied my first h and hated my 2nd and interfered to a catastrophic extent in both marriages .

I am in a state of anxiety about this today and was up for most of last night.

My parents showed no interest in my relationships other than general disapproval from my father. I spent years with one ex even though I didn't love him, because I felt I couldn't cope on my own and I didn't think anyone else would want me. I moved on from that to a very controlling relationship that I stayed in for far too long for the same reasons.

Now I may be a little wiser, but am much, much older and there isn't much chance of finding anyone else--I have no social life and still don't have much self-esteem. I don't trust my own judgement of people, either, because I am still pathetically grateful for any little crumbs of interest and affection, and panic at the thought of being abandoned. I hate being alone and my life is very solitary.

I used to resent the fact that my parents never gave me any advice, although my father always knew better than me after it was too late.

In his will he explained that he was leaving me more because as the "unmarried single mother of three" I had "little real prospect of finding a helpful life partner."

Nice parting shot, eh?

Now I think it's just as well they didn't give me any advice as they were pretty disastrous human beings themselves.

I've done quite well professionally at least in terms of respect and reputation even though I don't make much money.

But I am so bitter when I think of the life I might have had if they hadn't robbed me of my self-respect and confidence.

It's really horrible of me but one of the ways I deal with the guilt at not being in contact more with my mother is to think that she's reaping what she sowed.

I don't think that's horrible q.I think that as I behave in my superficial sometimes bitchy way to mine.

at you feeling alone.Is anyone around for you in RL ?

What gives you pleasure? What are you good at/enjoy doing?

Thinking of you )))))

Thank you. I am good at my work, don't do much else, partly because I am not good at doing things on my own and don't have anyone to do them with, and partly because I'm really bad at allowing myself any pleasure, as if I am still the bad girl and if I punish myself enough perhaps my parents will love me after all.

Came across this a while ago. Do you think people like us will ever get to this point?

It's Love after Love, by Derek Walcott.

The time will come
when, with elation
you will greet yourself arriving
at your own door, in your own mirror
and each will smile at the other's welcome,

and say, sit here. Eat.
You will love again the stranger who was your self.
Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart
to itself, to the stranger who has loved you

all your life, whom you ignored
for another, who knows you by heart.
Take down the love letters from the bookshelf,

the photographs, the desperate notes,
peel your own image from the mirror.
Sit. Feast on your life.

q - and everyone.
We have to .
That is beautiful,thank you for sharing.I am going to write it out.

That is beautiful. Thanks :)

I've just re-read one of the old NPD threads (the one you had your baby in, pm!) and am shocked at how much more in touch with my feelings I seemed to be then. I feel I've shut down somewhat. But I also notice I still hadn't admitted to myself how self-serving my mother is, how warped her perspective, and how screwed-up my sibs are. It's no wonder I seem to be in a kind of shock - that was only five months ago!

We all learn so fast here! I think, perhaps, we may congratulate ourselves more, and take a few minutes to admire our increasing wisdom :)

Before my mum hijacked my life, 3 years ago, I used to cook excellent meals for myself most nights and set the table for one, with flowers. Your poem reminded me of that, quid - I'd forgotten Maybe I'll stop making plans for now, and put the energy into small acts of love for myself. It's past time ...

"Small acts of love...for myself"
Tnanks Grace !
That's got to be the way there

sAf (((((((((()))))))))

Can I possibly ask for some opinions please? (I have namechanged for this) I have a situation with DH and his father (my FIL) which, now that I am 36 weeks (eek!) pg, is coming to a head. It would help to have some input from some of you who may have been in a similar situation to my DH.

DH's parents divorced when he was 10. My MIL is lovely and wonderful and, when DH was 12, remarried. DH's stepdad is great and a father figure to DH. All fine there!

DH's father is a little "odd". DH does not think he was sexually abused by his father but has strong memories of feeling (even as a very young child) very aware of his father's sexuality and of things not being "right" in the way his father treated him (and his sister). For instance, he remebers being very, very frightened when his father wanted to get in the bath with him (aged about 5) and asking his father on a holiday to please, please not take his pants off when sharing a bed with the children (ages 7). Apparently, even at these very young ages, DH got a sense of the sexual from his father, if that makes sense. DH now thinks this is pretty odd (and I agree - these sorts of things would never have occured to me with my dad as a young child, not even as a teenager!). DH's sister recalls having the same sorts of feelings, but neither has any memory of specific sexual abuse.

When DH was 15, he was in his gran's house with his father and his half sister (FIL's daughter from a later relationship). DH's stepsister was about 3 or 4. DH's father had half sister on his lap and DH felt very strongly that his father was touching high up halfsister's thigh inappropriately. DH says he felt sick but couldn't say anything (which I think is fair enough for a 15 year onld in that situation).

When DH was much older, in his twenties, he and his father were out playing golf and father put his hand down DH's trousers and inserted his finger up DH's bum! DH turned round and hiot his dad, to which his dad responsed "sorry - I am old perv, aren't I?!..." Nothing like this has happened since!

Even though DH's father was the one who left the family (string of affairs) and DH hated him for a while as a teenager, DH now sees his father fairly often but is not at all close to him emotionally. He says he has forgiven his father and thinks it is kind to see him every so often, safe in the knowledge that his father has no emotional ties over him. I am not sure that DH is as cold about his father as he likes to think though...

DH's mother, when DH and his sister ask her about how they feel, simply says no. That can't be right. You father was a good father.

Now that I am pregnant, I have explained to DH that I don't feel comfortable about my FIL having close contact with the child. Even if he doesn't "do" anything, I feel that as parents we need to protect our child from even having the odd "feelings" that DH had as a child. DH mostly agrees but feel it is too cruel to say to my FIL that he cannot see the child at all. I am inclined to agree...

After discussing with DH, I have agreed that the following ground rules need to be in place so that I (and DH) feel that we are adequately protecting our child/ren:

1. No physical contact except patting on the head or shoulders (this was taken from the rule at the primary school where DH works - it is designed to allow contact but remove risk);

1. Only seeing the child/ren in a public place (eg a cafe or a pub lunch) - so no visits to our house and we won't visit his house; and

1. Never being left alnoe with the child/ren, even for a minute or two. Effectively, this means that both DH and I have to be around for any visits to allow for popping to the loo etc!

Can I ask two things?

First - are those ground rules ok do you think. I am not sure DH will agree to anything more as he feels that it would be too cruel to his father who, after all, is not definately a sex abuser - it really is only the above incidents. I can tell you all now that DH simply would not agree to no contact at all. He feels that, if we are there, nothing can "happen" and, in any event, nothing really "happened" as such to DH as a child... I expect some of you will judge, but families are complicated adn I can live with these ground rules. I feel that they will keep my child/ren safe.

Second - DH wants to talk to his father and explain these rules alone, without me there. I suggested writing a letter to FIL, but DH disagrees. I have said that I am totally willing to be the "villan of the piece". Although I hate to say it, i guess I don't totally trust DH to explain this properly to his father. I mean, it is INCREDIBLY hard for DH and I fear his emotional ties to his father will get in the way.

Do any of you have any advice?

Sorry to butt in to your very lovely and supportive thread with such a long and random post btw... I just thought that, as many of you are likely to understand the different "pulls" on DH (and me, I guess) in this situtaion, you probably have some useful insights. I hope you don't mind!

SAF: urgh! Sorry to hear you woke up in a flashback. What a shite start to the day :(

Once you've given yourself something nice, it might be worth having a re-read of Pete Walker's page about flashbacks? Try to learn something from them, maybe keep a notepad handy so you can write down your feelings to revisit later, when you're feeling more grounded.

top10, am reading your post. Welcome!