statley homes thread - dysfunctional families

[Mummiehunnie]

I had a look back and could not find the old thread, for adult children who grew up in unhealthy dysfunctional families, and were abused as a result!

Not sure.I've thought and thought.
I think,something to do with continuity and history,archives.....relics (!!!)

Also,maybe it serves to validate the awful reality. When I didn't see them for two years -although their choice - I had really grief-stricken dreams of loss and abandonment.

I never do now.

What I am increasingly aware of ,is how xp exploited it all.And how I transferred my unrealistic hopes for change through love,into that relationship.
My parents thought he was wonderful,they still cannot understand why the police were involved and think I made a fuss out of nothing,out of mad,selfishness.

There was something strangely comforting about visiting my parents with him.We were accepted.I was completely safe,she kept off me and flirted with xp (EW!)they couldn't praise him enough to others.

He understood totally and noticed every detail of the subtlest mad crap.Takes one to know one.Thinking about it,he loved going there to visit.Now why would that be,when he spent the days after,validating my distress. Ghoul.Narc. Bastard.

I think I'm in a similar place to pinemartina--I still feel guilt and obligation if not fear.

My mother is now disabled though in deep denial about it. Other people think she's meek and mild (she usually is now) and assume we have a normal relationship. So I would look like the bad guy.

Also we have never of course talked about the abuse--no doubt they would say I asked for it anyway. So if I suddenly stopped talking to her etc she would be hurt and bewildered and it would be yet more proof of how cold and horrible I am.

I don't have anyone in RL that I could talk to about this or who could tell me no I'm not. So it would be me against her and my brother and I'd end up doubting myself as usual and feeling maybe they were right after all.

PM I think you make a massively important point there.

It has been infinitely easier this time, because I have my dad's family. I did not the first time I went NC.

They are still in touch with "weird world" but know the truth, and are connected with me, and in touch, and supportive. I think my mothers consistent adultery didn't help...they knew at the time...probably more than I did.

And of course, I look like them. we are skinny impish looking chatacters, with the same top lip and nose, my kids have those features too. Ilook nothing like mothers side.

It's an anchor isn't it...it means that NC isn't as devastating as it was the first time.

My cousin...dad's side, was the victim of an horrendous murder...and I found about it in a Sunday tabloid!!!! I swore that I deserved to keep MY family. I don't see them every day, or every week, but they facebook, and ring to see how I am doing, and they adore my kids.

You know quiddity you'd be surprised by what "other people" think.

People who are keyed in to ALL their sensate functions, are pretty clued up....they may not say stuff out loud but people "know".

I have been reading this thread with interest. I don't know if I qualify but I think I do. Mum had bipolar and was quite vocal about feeling suicidal when I was tiny. She also used to physically and verbally assault me. She is still quite verbally abusive but we have managed to patch together some sort of relationship.

I cannot believe my sister and I were from the same parents. My sister is highly succesful psychiatrist. My mum was obsessed with psychiatrists and wanted us both to be doctors. My sister decided to follow her advice and I rebelled. I feel liek a neer do well or black sheep.

I need permission to exist.

I wrote a longer post - thank you, quiddity, for writing something that woke up a feeling I've been avoiding. Don't need the long post right now, really. Just thought I'd throw this out in case anyone had anything to add.

Yes, other people observe more than you have been led to suppose they do! Quite a relief, really: all that keeping quiet & putting on a united front doesn't wash so well

Sorry for being quixotic - am deep inside my head, looking for buried treasure

Ooh, hello, posh Glad you decided to post after all. I presume you've thought about why your mum's obsessed with psychiatry? Your sister may have hoped her studies would explain some inner discomfort of her own ... ?

''When I react to anything I am labelled as an aggressive and frightening person - I am given the role of the persecutor to my mother's victim. She says that I am distrustful, manipulative, aggressive, hostile, selfish.''

I can relate to this too special patrol group. I get this if I stick up for myself. Never mind the fact that mum was aggressive towards me when I was little.

Hi Have booked a gp appointmet but have to wait two weeks. I've been feeling quite cross really about the fact that I have had depression most of my life and yet when I finally went for some help two years ago I was left with Ads and no other support.
I waited a year for a referral which once I got they were completely unable to see through my 'Im ok really' facade.
I then wait another year for cbt only to be told Im too hard core for cbt and so need to be referred back to the person I saw a year prior, the clin Psych who never picked me up in the first place.
I have no idea how much longer I will have to wait . Ok rant over.

PM I've thought a lot about your posts.
I wondered if you can access more support for yourslef?
You will have to really push for it but I feel that if you could just begin to build a network of support. Should you start the process now you may be in a position in the future where you have built a layer of protection around yourself. Then and only then you may re-consider NC.
I dont normally suggest nc to anyone because I do believe each person must find their own path through things but your mother and family 'continue' to treat you appallingly.
I remember reading about them on your other thread and was frankly disgusted by their behaviour.
That is the key for me. Whether the abuse continues in the present. If it continues it keeps your self esteem low. It will affect all your current and future relationships too.
How can you find a new partner on a different/healthier footing when the people who are supposed to have the closest connection with you treat you so very badly .
At the same time I understand why you cant cut off from them right now.
Im just wondering if there is any way you can access counselling which would be a really good starting point...a building block to begin a new foundation of support? One which is of mutual respect and trust, and not abuse.

swallowed Sounds like the 8 year old you desperately wants to be heard/listened to. That whole episode must have been extremely frightening for her.
A lot of people have talked on here about inner child therapy? Have you heard that or of Bradshaw's book/work?
Sounds like you really need to get it out there but the person you wanted and needed to do the listening isn't capable.

Of course you would be traumatised. It would have been incredibly difficult for an adult to have dealt with let alone a child of 8.
First your are abandoned by your father and then emotionally abandoned by your mother.
They may as well have both left you alone in the house to fend for yourselves.
I think getting in touch with the raw fear and emotions of that age will help, and that is what you are beginning to do now?
Have you sat with a therapist and revisited that age, worked through the trauma?

Thank you everyone for thinking about me ,and responding.

My mother's mother was bi-polar and never properly managed her symptoms - swung wildly from high to low constantly,despite lithium and frequent admissions.
My mother - despite being left in charge of her 4 younger sibs during gm's numerous hospital stays and witnessing bizarre or suicidal behaviour - has always been in total denial about Granny's ""turns".Choosing to describe them as "nastiness" and" bitterness at her husband" - my g'father had a second family who he spent most of his life with while working,but abandoned forever and later denied ,once retired....(still with me?)
Mother sympathizes totally with her poor father for "having to look after his nasty wife"

The other family were traced by m's youngest brother years back,but ignored and denied by everyone else.Disappeared now.

G'mo was "deb of the season" when 18 and very beautiful.Only became unwell once married

Mo trained as paediatric nurse at Great Ormond St.But only ever worked the odd shift once we were all at school.

I was told that,if I wanted to stay at home once I turned 16,I would have to work as a nursing assistant and apply to train after a levels.I wanted to do art and drama but was told drama was out of the question - totally ridiculed and scorned -and that art could only lead to a job in advertising - very low and dirty...(wtf)

I "rebelled" and trained as a psychiatric nurse.
My parents have completely ignored the specialism of my career - I have been senior for many years (cbt and psychodynamic extra's...)They consider me a "nurse" .In the old traditional,diminutive role play sense...iyswim...

I have been theraped and theraped.Both for supervision/professional development and periods when I have fallen to bits.

My mother - and I know I can't be truly objective - is,I am sure without any insight whatsoever.She is rigidly defended and in utter denial about everything not within her absolute control - her "zone"
When I have - even gently - attempted ANY conversation/interaction with her ,that is spontaneous,led or initiated by me or transpires to be "outside the zone",she will either dissociate/blank/shut down; become old fashioned hysterical,as in scream jump up and down flail limbs;or spit out evil,venomous barbs-personal insults....if it is just me and her...if anyone else is around,she dissolves in tears and becomes helpless.

It was always so,all through my childhood.

I know she won't/can't/has no wish to change.The entire family see all her pain as being entirely my fault.My brothers used to remember witnessing her abuse of me.Now,they consider that I "planted" the memories into them, as a teenager.
I was chaotic as a teenager and in my 20's.Allegedly,they knew this wd be so ,since I was a "cold baby" who pushed mummy's breast away !!!!wtf

My professional knowledge and insight enables me to have a perspective on them,and me which tbh ,is more a burden than a help .

Because I function at a very high,competent and capable level.

Allocation of resources and services,in MH, are driven by the assessed level of the individuals' capacity to function .

I have,a fair few times,fallen to pieces in Dr's appointments,with Health visitors,midwives and counselors.They always appeal to my professional knowledge,status,role,insight and the evidence that I am coping,day to day to conclude that I'm ok.Really.Relatively speaking maybe ,but just look at what you cope with...

That must be true.It must be a good thing.

It is also the exact same dynamic that existed and exists between me and my mother/entire family.

In addition,in my job,not coping,(certainly where I live now,though not where I trained) will likely lose me my job.I am on the way there anyhow.

Then,I won;t have the income to be so capable in supporting 5 dc and me.
But,yes.I will cope.That is a bit of a burden to be honest.How crazy is that.

And my inner fear,is that they are all correct about me,and that I am failing my dc on a huge scale - emotionally- and that they just don't tell anyone because they only have me, and it all looks good to the outside world.That they will be damaged by my chaotic,unconventional life and posting heartbreaking memories somewhere in a few years.

sAf sorry for your "little self" back then - and now.

pm close to where I live (and you have just reminded me of the fact for which I thankyou) there is a charity run organisation where you can access counselling for free either or you can give a nominal amountfor the charity.
Do you think there might be something similar near you?
I can see how hard this, you probably need to fall apart but/ cant/aren't allowed to.
Im not saying you should. But...if you could access something like this to have yourself 50mins a week to talk about 'you', express 'your' feelings without reference to being needed to cope for either your mothers sake or the sake of the NHS pursestrings or to keep your own little family afloat.

You're right, SAF, your 10:32 post is a good description of Complex PTSD which is a non-clinical, but recognised, condition resulting from extended trauma. It's associated with conditions of entrapment, where the trauma victim cannot independently escape from circumstances that cause the trauma. Abused children fall into this category, along with prisoners and people in war zones, for example. From Wikipedia: "PTSD descriptions fail to capture some of the core characteristics of C-PTSD. These elements include captivity, psychological fragmentation, the loss of a sense of safety, trust, and self-worth, as well as the tendency to be revictimized, and, most importantly, the loss of a coherent sense of self."

The imbalance of power between abuser and victim can set up an emotional system where the victim adopts the ideas and values of their abuser - similar to, but not the same as Stockholm Syndrome, which occurs between adults. Some more relevant links on Wikipedia:
Defence mechanisms
Projective Identification
Cognitive Dissonance; Cognitive Distortion; Denial

The above links might give you some kind of insight into your mother's weirdnesses. Not that you particularly need more insight, but I have found this helps me to validate the truth of what happens in my family. Without that, I would have trouble believing my own experience, iyswim.

pm: Whenever I think about you (which is daily, btw!), I think how much better it would be for you to be physically distant from your birth family. I've assumed you can't because of your job. But, if that's under threat anyway, could this be a good time to revisit the idea? I realise it's yet another bloody challenge (!) but you never know, you may even find you can access help from the very sources that are worrying you. Is there any possibility of a transfer (perhaps informal, to avoid the adjudication processes?) via your work? Or similar ...

If you were in London, for example, you'd have a greater choice of support resources: both in terms of practical things like childcare and in getting much-needed personal therapy. I don't want to lumber you with still more decisions - but I DO want you to separate yourself from you mad parents!

My grandfather had a second family on the side, too. Families, eh?

pinemartina, it's horrible how the fact that you seem to be coping really misleads people, so instead of being rewarded for trying so hard you get punished by being told you don't need help. And of course the strict secrecy you were taught you had to observe makes it harder to say what's really going on under the facade.

It feels so weird too to be competent and high-achieving and confident-seeming in your profession and to be able to do all sorts of things that you could never do for yourself. It adds to the feeling that Grace mentioned, the "loss of a coherent sense of self." You don't know who or what is the real you.

swallowed, it's appalling what they did to you as a little girl. I'm in tears. "I looked out at the world as a scary place full of things i couldn't say"--that's exactly it.

And even if you're trained not to betray the family secrets, I don't understand why no one else notices there's something wrong. Or if they do notice, why they don't say a word. At 16 I was anorexic and no one said anything except my mother, whose only response was, "What are you trying to do to me?" Teachers, school friends (we didn't have any family friends and there were no relatives around)--not one said anything or showed any concern.

That's the difficulty with results-focused therapies like CBT, which (understandably) the NHS espouses. If the answer to "How do you deal with your unhelpful thoughts?" amounts to "I cope", then your work is done according to the objectives. Eric Berne says this merely helps people to stay in script more successfully; I agree. While I learned quite a lot from my CBT - specifically, how to listen to my inner critic and analyse what it said - we went round in circles pretty much because I was coping at that time. I was tired, ill and hurtling towards another breakdown, but couldn't get the help I desperately wanted: it wasn't on the prescription. It still isn't, as a matter of fact :(

Thinking about the inner critic and scripted self-sabotage, I've just read the most wonderful passage in WDYSAYSH! I'll get the book & quote:

'When the demon whispers "Stretch out your arm - and put the whole wad on one last number, or have just one drink, or or now is the time to pull your knife, or grab her (him) by the neck and pull her (him) toward you," or whatever the losing movement is, pull the arm back and say it loud and clear: "But mother, I'd rather do it my own way and win."'

He means say it out loud - I bloody will, too.
"But mother, I'd rather do it my own way and win."

Grace I've gone round and round in circles about moving.But The dc have been uprooted so much ,and are doing well in school now.

The school system here - an underpopulated area - is very good,we sidestep so many of the difficulties faced by families in other areas.

I have little equity left and am in a tiny house(3 bed mid terrace,tiny rooms) .That would mean moving to an impossibly tiny place in a socially deprived area.Could never afford London or home counties,though am from there.

We are surrounded by countryside and castles that are spiritually enriching.There's little crime and a very slow pace.

But the other side of that is isolation,small minded values.Not many people.Not much intellectual stimulation,Limited arts/culture.

I'd love to be in Bath or Bristol,in an arty,bohemian part of town.Running a bric a brac shop and getting involved in community projects.I like talking and listening.All day! But I do need space and love the countryside.

And dc really find it easier in Welsh medium education.
I fear I'd look back and regret it if I uprooted them.The town,house ,garden,surrounding area here.All beautiful.Would not be surrounded by beauty if we moved to inner city.

And
"But mother, I'd rather do it my own way and win"

Instant flashback to
"Your trouble is you always want to do it YOUR way"......wallop
and
"Her trouble is she always wants to do everything her way.Poor you ,hope you can cope -we couldn't,she pushes til you slap her,ha ha!"

'Ha ha', pm, now you've got me ...

I'm sorry if I seem to be nagging you about moving! I know you've explained before. It's sad that you feel unable to move away from your parents.

You've often described yourself / your preferences as "arty & bohemian" - the exact phrase. I wonder if this is something somebody once said to you, that you've adopted? It seems a bit limiting to me, though I realise you might just be using it to convey an idea quickly. People often call me "bohemian" though I don't fit any definition of bohemian that I know. I assume they mean "not quite as expected", which doesn't really say anything about me at all. I just wondered if this could be more to do with rebelling against your parents' expectations than specific choices of your own. If you think I'm talking utter twaddle, ignore me! Would it helpful for you to define the ways in which you're artistic, and what you mean by bohemian?

-------

I need help, somebody! I'm probably asking in the wrong place, as this is to do with childlessness - though far more to do with psychology. All insights & suggestions welcome :)

Rules from my parents:
1] A woman is not a woman unless she has children.
2] I can have a successful career before I have children.
3] You can do your own thing after the children have left home.

So I had my successful career; my "before" script. I haven't got children, so will never get to "after". This means I'm stuck in limbo, without permission to 'do my own thing'. On top of that, my "unless" script says I'm not a woman - but I am a woman. I'm in double limbo, lacking permission to be myself

My psychologist and I were heading to this part before my time was up. I'm trying to do it by myself (making headway, since I've got this far!) - but it's one thing to identify a problem & quite another to know what to do about it. I could do with some pointers.

Sorry if this is off-topic or should be posted somewhere else, but what do you tell you children about your toxic relatives? And how?

As far as mine know, their granny is a ditsy old lady who makes Mummy cross for some reason they probably don't quite get. I worry sometimes that they will think that's how you treat any elderly mother and I'll get the same treatment when the time comes.

I've never told them anything about what she did to me. I wouldn't know how to explain it--why would a sweet old lady behave like that? How would we deal with her afterwards?

I don't want to perpetuate the silence and the horrible guilty secrets but I don't know how not to. I think I must have already though, because they seem to know not to ask.

Hmm,thanks for the challenge.....
What jumped straight to mind was: - exactly as one chooses to be - whatever,however,whenever....colourful,expressive,unafraid, spiritually peaceful,thoughtful,considerate,political,self aware....for starters...spontaneous and courageous...and absolutely "not quite as expected"!
But certainly ,without uniform or conventionally unconventional - not rainbow stripes,dolphins and wafty things.... Not a visual thing at all.Not new agey stuff.
I miss living in he student side of the town I trained in.
I miss talking to people from different cultures and communities.Meeting new people.

Hmm,yes,it's about identity.I could waffle on at length but will stop and give it some serious thought.Thanks

Well,I clearly also lack permission to be myself..
Not sure if I'm in a good place to offer pointers,but what springs to mind is that the "before and after" misses out on the "now"..is the challenge to define the limbo,if that's not stating the obvious?

You have really touched on something with me...I am questioning the extent to which I am searching for permission to define myself and that the location issue could well be a red herring,since most of the above list I feel are about mindset..although I would like to know more like minded people...

Speaking as one who is up to her neck in children,and struggling just as much to give myself permission even to define myself,is the "children" part a red herring here?

Sorry if I am missing the point,and I seriously don't want to minimise the relevance of your not having children.Just a thought.x