Archers thread #168: Near to the Maddening Crowd? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to hear more of Harrison's strange little moaning noises, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion!

Over to you.

I was too young to vote but a political youth!

I just feel like this time it’s least worst option which isn’t a great basis!!

Anyway, it’s nice that this thread is politics and football free!!

It wasn’t empty. He’d been drinking it on his walk, took the last mouthful as he hot into the driving seat and cast the now empty can into the passenger footwell. That’s my theory. But why didn’t he leave the fruit cider at the party, and help himself to something more palatable/grown up for the walk? Answer - no good for clue laying, of course.

I love the idea that "sheer old age" sets in at 45.

I agree re Alice her vindictive jealousy and bitterness and also entitlement (agreed to do work for Justin in exchange for business advice but grumbling when he took them up on it) are just all very negative energy that makes her unhappy, when her energies could be far more positively and productively spent being self reliant and making a real go of the business opportunity they are fortunate enough to have. Why moan about a job coming up disturbing their leafleting to find work!

It does a disservice to the very very many who have overcome the same and much worse and make the best of what they have and have the confidence to see themselves as anyone’s equals, not wasting away their lives unhappily obsessed by jealousy. Money does gives security, food and shelter are a necessity, but money does not per se buy happiness (long term studies have proved it) and I suppose that is what the script writers are trying to reflect. As well as reflect the many personality types and their complexities.

At the end of the day I think Emma is mostly unhappy within herself

as for Alice, yes she will never have financial issues but who would you rather be? Her life is tainted by her alcoholism and that is what will stop her being content in life. Unfortunately financial security doesn’t stop bad things in your life I agree. I think from Emma’s point of view she feels Alice has thrown away the golden ticket - and yet the golden ticket means she remains cushioned from the consequences in a way she Emma never could be. It’s an interesting question - who would you rather be? Someone who can never fail however much she tries to self-sabotage or someone who seems destined never to succeed however hard she tries? Both Alice and Emma are both brilliant characters for this reason,

I suppose I don’t see Emma as trying - feels like she expects success without really wanting to put in the effort

I thought that too. Very insensitive. Im surprise Harrison didnt biff him on the nose.
Alice could have a party trick of opening bottles with your èye socket, saw that in a comedy film once it was quite funny how it was done but sounds horrible, I know.

Emma was not poorly served by her education! I won't have Loxley Barratt Primary, Borchester Green comp and Borchester FE College traduced in this way. <stamps foot childishly> Roy and Brenda both went there. The Tuckers had no more money than the Carters and I'd be surprised if they had had much more in the way of education, and yet Roy and Brenda both did very well at school and went on to get degrees and graduate jobs.

The Brookfield and Bridge Farm Archers attended LB and BG too. Pip has a degree, Ben is on his way to getting a degree, and Helen has a professional qualification in cheesemaking and dairy management. Josh and Tom seem to have done all right to GCSE level. I forget whether Tom got any A levels. I think Josh did and then decided not to bother with university.

Christopher did well enough in his GCSEs for Susan to think he should be aiming for university. He didn't want that, but his farrier training was demanding and included written assessments, which he managed perfectly well, so he must have had a good foundation from school.

The Grundy boys and Emma were simply not academically inclined. Will buckled down in his last year because George Barford wouldn't take him on as an apprentice gamekeeper unless he passed a couple of GCSEs, and he managed that, with that incentive. Ed and Em had no incentives at all and messed around all the way through school. Emma woke up very belatedly to the fact that she was likely to fail all her exams and did some last minute cramming, which was a waste of time as she had so little foundation to build on. She got very poor grades and decided to forget about education. She managed to pass a Food Hygiene course when she worked as a waitress at Lower Loxley. Until very recently she showed no interest in education beyond that at all. I'm glad she is broadening her horizons now.

I always thought it was a pity the SWs didn't turn Susan into a mature student. She could have done qualifications in bookeeping and accountancy at a minimum and got a good secure job in an accountancy firm or a local business. If she can manage the Post Office and the shop accounts, she could easily have tackled the AAT exams. An opportunity missed.

It is curious - the Grundys were invented to be lovable rogues who cut corners and refused to doff their caps, eternal comedy underdogs - but the characters have long outgrown their characterisation. Despair bleeds out of them and newer writers can’t ignore it.

But they deserve a BOOP for picking the right person for the alcoholism story. Alice is so woven into so many people’s lives, and affects so many other familial and social and working relationships. It’s kind of entrancing to look back and see how it’s all been stitched together from the starter marriage: Carters and Aldridges and Grundys and Horrobins and Burns; Home Farm and the Stables and Woodbine Cottage and the Forge and The Bull and Grange Farm / Little Grange and the Village Shop and the Vicarage. In fact the only household completely at a distance from Events is Brookfield. (Plus LL) Which is in itself A Thing to be remarked upon.

Despair bleeds out of them and newer writers can’t ignore it.

And we're back to Hardy again!

Very astute observations, Totters. The Aldridges have always been a lot more interesting than the Brookfield Archers. For all their annoying qualities, so have the Bridge Farm Archers. The Brookfielders are mostly rather bland, these days, anyway. I felt things were better when Phil and Jill were both absolutely central to TA.

The Grundy boys and Emma were simply not academically inclined. Will buckled down in his last year because George Barford wouldn't take him on as an apprentice gamekeeper unless

That’s what I meant by education, @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - at the point where she didn’t prove to be a brain box there was no one to push her to strive in any other direction. Neither at school or at home or in her wider family. There was no George Barford for her.

Trying to erase the eye socket bottle cap removal. Keep imagining the fluted edges scouring a groove down my eyeball. Could never even master the knock it down on a flat edge method myself

The key ring suggestion might have legs but overlooks the fact that the keys were in the glovebox so totally inaccessible.

Roy and Brenda had no George Barford either, but they worked hard and achieved good results anyway. Fallon had no George Barford but she did have a dream of working in the music business, and she did some sort of qualification in music technology, having previously attended Borchester Green, I suppose.

I think Alice has already failed and as for being cushioned from the consequences she is full of self loathing and desperately had to give her child up (can think of little worse although fortunate Chris is doing his best to keep a positive link). She thinks she has caused Fallons miscarriage and injured and nearly killed several villagers. She is hated in the village for this, even though she did none of it and was set up. She is facing prison for something she has not done. The conflict between the ‘indisputable’ evidence and her deep down knowledge she couldn’t and didn’t do it, enough to destroy her mentally alone.

Emma is capable of so much, if she just learned to become more self reliant focused and resilient. She actually has so much that Alice does not, including ironically the son who actually caused the accident and set up Alice and brought most of the above to fruition on her. It’s more about attitude than effort with Emma I think.

But I agree with Bruiser “feels like she expects success without really wanting to put in the effort”

Emma had a mother and father who both worked hard and were holding down responsible jobs. She didn't lack for role models.

I concede that Emma’s lack of success is wholly writer driven! She’s essentially a mythical creature condemned to eternal punishment for being an irresistible object of adoration and causing an epic familial rift. (Which the SWs then abandoned, whether for realism or convenience, who knows?) And for inadvertently causing embarrassment to the child born into the midst of the emotional turmoil.

Etc.

it's compare & contrast
emma vs chelsea
grifter vs grafter
pick-yourself-up-and-dust-yourself-off vs wailing 'it's unfair'

wasn't there previously an issue with a bad review coming from emma? or am I mixing something up.

It’s an interesting question - who would you rather be?

If I were a character in Ambridge, then I'd rather be Alice. I would rather be anyone other than someone who has Susan for a mother and lives close to her. As a Christian, I'm not really into (or allowed to) holding grudges IRL, so I make up for it by holding grudges against fictional characters that would make a Corsican matriarch proud. I will never forgive Susan for a throwaway comment she once made to Clarrie, probably over 20 years ago.

In reality, I've had close dealings with someone who has never been allowed to hit rock bottom because their parents will always bail them out. It's tough for everyone. And no guarantee that actually hitting rock bottom would help and they wouldn't just stay there or commit suicide. So I wouldn't want to be Alice either.

But not being related to Susan would be a major consideration!

What was the thing, @Fink?

(I hold a grudge against Alice because of something she said to Amy when they were teens - but it’s sort of dissipated through her suffering.)

I concede that Emma’s lack of success is wholly writer driven

I disagree. Emma’s main problem is being married to Ed. He is a total loser and she will never be successful so long as she is dragged down by him. He is the ultimate millstone. She would have been better off with Will.

I think Emma’s lack of success is in line with her character

Exactly! Ed is her main problem. If she didn’t see this at the time of the dodgy chemicals and house purchase then I don’t think she ever will. On the plus side, they love each other and are decent parents. So it’s not all bad. But Emma has always had a lot of potential and subconsciously she feels it and it drives resentment.

It’s really unfair to say she doesn’t make an effort. Like Susan, Neil and Clarrie, she is very hard working. She’s now trying to make up for the education she threw away. It’s hard for her to be a doormat like Clarrie because she’s far more intelligent and she takes after Susan!

Emma's successes have been forgotten too - she won a parish council seat. She is hard-working- she's had three jobs concurrently. I can understand why she feels a bit bitter, working hard and not getting the rewards as she sees those like Alice getting. She would have done well if she'd picked someone like Roy rather than a Grundy. She feels trapped and in many ways is. Bitterness also holds her back, though.

The average teenager would agree with me

Just listened to the 2pm repeat. That was a good episode. How can Chris be so thick as to take Harrison for a pint to mend bridges and then start talking over the things that burnt the bridges in the first place?