Archers thread #168: Near to the Maddening Crowd? Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

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Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion!

Over to you.

It's not particularly difficult to prise that type of bottle cap off. Keys or keyring would do it or just hold the edge of the cap against something hard and lever it off.

That's not the implausible part. I'd been assuming, as I guess everyone else was, that George had been carrying unopened bottles home and had forgotten he'd left them in the car. Why on earth would he carry an empty bottle home?

This. It wasn't nice, but in the absence of anything else... (that argument could apply to Alice too, except she didn't buy the stuff, and at some point, that's going to come out in front of Chris thst George did.)

I rather enjoyed Justin and Emma yesterday, even if it was a little unlikely. They're both as bad as each other...

That's why I thought the existence of the bottles would suggest he hadn't drunk it (and neither had Alice). Taking empties home from a party makes no sense.

I can’t imagine he would have been swigging it on the way home - he doesn’t like it and bought it so he could take something to the party. I can imagine him drinking it there but why would he be drinking it on the way home when he has no need for alcohol and doesn’t like it either

it’s clearly the thing that’s going to blow the case open but it doesn’t make sense!!

Who said the fruit cider bottle(s) were empty? I mean originally? Chris said the police found a cider bottle and vodka bottle - both empty. How does he know that? Might he have got it wrong? I thought we understood at the time that George was for whatever reason bringing home the un-drunk cider he’d taken to the party; I recall speculating that he might want to sell it on to less discerning kids around the village. And why would he bother to take such care of empty bottles - he could just have flung them in the ditch or undergrowth at the roadside?

I can’t imagine he would have been swigging it on the way home - he doesn’t like it and bought it so he could take something to the party. I can imagine him drinking it there but why would he be drinking it on the way home when he has no need for alcohol and doesn’t like it either

Teens will generally drink anything they can - especially if they have paid for it. I can imagine him hoping to swap it at the party, failing and so bringing the remaining bottle/bottles home to drink on the way. He won’t care he doesn’t like it- alcohol is alcohol. Joy sold him the cider so somehow the SWs are going to have to arrange a tete-a-tete between Chris and Joy.

I can understand him drinking it at the party but not walking home. But as pp says it may not have been empty

I can imagine the sw coming up with this sl and trying to figure out how George is uncovered. I think they should have tried a bit harder!

Carrying an empty bottle doesn't make sense unless he is a very committed recycler 🤣 The point is that the clues are there and now Chris is starting to pick up on them. We now need Joy to get wind of this. Susan remembered the cider was on offer - Joy will definitely remember selling it to George after their pointed exchange (I think Alistair was also in the shop at the time so that’s two witnesses - could the neck of the bottle be tested for DNA Silent Witness style?) I also agree with @Godesstobe to be that George might well pay another visit to Bartleby and be overheard by friendly Meg - that would finally explain what all this drawn out Bartleby nonsense has been leading up to (frankly that storyline has been more far-fetched than George being an ardent recycler imo). I would have preferred the mobile phone call to be key, but whatever it is that turns the tables it will be spectacular and with the added bonus that it will have been Chris who started the ball rolling and so may ultimately lead to a rapprochement between him and Alice. He’s the only one who believes in her - and he is right to do so!

Whilst he is right to believe in her I can’t help thinking the truth coming out is going to make her worse. If she has an epiphany and stops drinking they will have jumped the shark imo.

I think it will start to unravel for George and he will run away and be found with bartleby. We’ve been introduced to Meg because she will end up supporting him and he will disappear there for a few years

Emma is going to have the biggest bump down to earth when it comes out which will at least bring some satisfaction!

George might well pay another visit to Bartleby and be overheard by friendly Meg

Oh … I like that … Will have been beautifully seeded if so: George’s sotto voce goodbye to Bartleby; Meg’s invitation to visit any time. They both seemed unremarkable at the time, but, yes …

Justin isn't completely awful. He was very generous with his time when he helped Emma with the business/marketing plan, gave her great advice and sounded sincere when he said he hoped the business would prove to be a success. He is, if nothing else, someone who likes to help enterprising individuals and encourages entrepreneurship.

Emma is ghastly. Mean spirited, vindictive and envious with a huge sense of entitlement (see her nasty tantrum when Chris gave his Grey Gables prize to Fallon and Harrison instead of to her n Ed). She is constantly harping on about the fact that others have more than her - more money, a nice home, a good job etc. I'm sure when this tree business goes tits up it will be everyone else's fault. I also think the Big Reveal about George will result in a huge rift between her and Chris and she will refuse to believe he is to blame. Even if she does accept the truth she will point out he saved Fallon's life so "he's still a hero".

Emma is going to have the biggest bump down to earth when it comes out which will at least bring some satisfaction! Yes and no - Emma is a great character (like her mother) in that we know her so well, we understand where her personality comes from - strengths and weaknesses. When the tables are turned for Emma we will feel briefly vindicated, but ultimately sorry for her (especially if George ends up going to prison) because at the end of the day George is her son. In the best Archers storylines there are shades of grey which is why the characters we have known all their lives or are better than those parachuted in for dramatic effect - it’s why Brian’s infidelities were more gripping than Denise’s. It’s why Justin is always unsatisfactory because his character flip-flops for plot purposes.

I’m not sure what you mean - once it comes out she will continue to blame Alice for leading her baby astray and he was only trying to help etc

My recollection of the "George finds Alice" episode is that prior to seeing Alice's car he was on the phone to someone and said that the party had been rubbish, and then said "It's rank" which implied he was drinking the fruit cider as he walked and talked. He ended that call when he saw Alice's car, then phoned Will.

Does anyone else remember him commenting on the cider on his walk home?
Am I misremembering?

Yes - although I didn’t think he was drinking it at the time but more complaining that the party was rubbish and he only had disgusting things to drink. But you may well be right

I just can’t imagine why he would be so desperate for alcohol when he’s already left the party

And in the message to will doesn’t he say he hasn’t drunk much

I thought he was commenting on the party myself as it wouldn't make sense to comment on the cider without mentioning that he was drinking the cider. You may be right though. I fear we may never know as the SW don't seem as interested in or bothered about the details as we do.

How can we see people so differently, @Eastie77Returns?!

Justin was ghastly when he ‘helped’ Emma with the business plan. So threatening and oppressive and ready to put her in her place. It’s as if he’s actually the devil but likes to play the role of philanthropic oligarch occasionally just to wrong foot people. He makes my skin crawl. (I was half right about how he’d deal with OnlineEmma - and I thought his way far too caricature villain.)

Emma, on the other hand … I can never forget that she’s apparently lovely enough to bring two brothers to blows and enmity. She was so poorly served by her education and by being half Horrobin and by well meaning rural parents who just didn’t know how to push or guide her. (And SWs who deliberately constructed a beautiful eternal underdog.) I can completely understand how painful it must be for her to see success all around her (even her own brother) but never, ever be able to access it, no matter how hard she tries.

I was very struck by Chris’ observation on the likelihood of history repeating itself if his child’s mother should be sent to prison just as his mother was. Really, he and Emma had enormous trauma to move beyond.

I don’t see the grundies, including Emma, as the poor kept in their place. Eddie and Joe have always been their own worst enemy but want to blame everyone else. Ed and Emma are the same. Her bitterness is ultimately what holds her back

I'm no fan of Justin and think he’s a terribly written character but he didn’t owe her free business advice and that’s a lesson Emma needs to learn - nothing is free in life no matter how much you wheedle.

like Eddie and the fireworks - yes he made a quick quid but I can’t imagine he will ever have the opportunity to sell to the bull again (if the sw are consistent). Short term gain but long term screws himself

And sadly for Martha, prison or not, her whole life will be impacted by Alice’s alcoholism. For a child her age rehab vs prison will not be much different

Emma is ghastly. Mean spirited, vindictive and envious with a huge sense of entitlement (see her nasty tantrum when Chris gave his Grey Gables prize to Fallon and Harrison instead of to her n Ed). She is constantly harping on about the fact that others have more than her - more money, a nice home, a good job etc. Again yes and no. For me this idea that there are the haves and the have nots in Ambridge is what lies at the heart of The Archers. In marrying a Grundy (and having a child with another one) Emma has planted herself very firmly in the camp of the have nots. And while Clarrie Grundy may be perfectly contented to know her place, Emma (as the daughter of the ultimate social climber Susan Carter) is not. Couple this with the fact that her brother married an Aldridge and her life choices have been thrown into even starker contrast. Alice Aldridge with her university education, own ponies, gifted a cottage and with another huge inheritance to come down the line no doubt, Brian stepping in to help Chris set up his forge, appears to have it all. Emma would not be human if she didn’t feel at least a little frisson of envy that some people have it so much easier. Of course she would have loved a night at Grey Gables - she and Ed could never dream of affording something like that and it would have been a lovely treat for someone who will probably never be able to afford her own home and who lives in a caravan.

Her bitterness is ultimately what holds her back - her not being part of or marrying into the land owning class is what’s holding her back. She and Ed are priced out of Ambridge and living in a caravan on land which could be sold from under them if Oliver decides to upsticks. They have borrowed a huge (for them) sum to set up a business they have no experience in. Their lives are the very definition of precarious. For Ed and Em there is no back stop. Alice will ultimately always be alright because she is an Aldridge - she will always have her own home (and others besides) and a family business she can slot into.

I don’t feel the same way about Emma. She is almost the opposite of Clarrie who accepts her life and is positive but is also a doormat! Emma is riddled with envy and bitterness and that will ultimately be what makes things bad for her. She will never be happy because of her attitude

the GG is an example - she was bitter and had expectations but in reality it was Chris’ to give away and there isn’t some hierarchy which meant she deserved it more

as for Alice, yes she will never have financial issues but who would you rather be? Her life is tainted by her alcoholism and that is what will stop her being content in life. Unfortunately financial security doesn’t stop bad things in your life.

That was nearly 30 years ago! You’d have to be over 45 to have voted then (don’t anyone check my sums, it’s too early for accurate mental arithmetic). So you’re suffering from a combination of “seen it all before”, memory of disappointment, and sheer old age